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The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Historical Vedic religion → Vedism – There are no sources describing the subject of this article as "Historical Vedic religion", but the majority of citations use "Vedism", as demonstrated here:
Vedic religion, also called Vedism, the religion of the ancient Indo-European-speaking peoples who entered India about 1500 BCE from the region of present-day Iran
Vedism refers to the schools of Hinduism that base their beliefs on Shruti, the sacred texts and rituals of the ancient Vedic tradition—that is, the Vedas and their offspring: the ...
Oppose - Vedism is ambigue, as implied by "Vedism refers to the schools of Hinduism that base their beliefs on.." The historical Vedic religion was not Hinduism. But Vedism, as a synonym, is mentioned in the lead, just like the EB does; clearly, that suffices.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!19:08, 7 April 2021 (UTC)reply
No, historical vedic religion is very uncommon tilte and isn't mentioned in any reliable source, while Vedism has been used since 18th century and is still in use. Please go through
WP:COMMONNAME.
LearnIndology (
talk)
19:33, 7 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Withdrawing my support as per
this edit by LearnIndology, which changed
The historical Vedic religion (also known as Vedicism, Vedism or (anachronistically) ancient Hinduism[a]), and subsequent Brahmanism (also called Brahminism), constituted the religious ideas and practices among some of the
Indo-Aryan peoples of northwest India and the western Ganges plain of
ancient India during the
Vedic period (1500–500 BC).[1][2][3][4]
into
Vedism or (anachronistically) ancient Hinduism[a]), and subsequent Brahmanism (also called Brahminism), refers to the schools of Hinduism that base their beliefs on
Śruti.[5] Vedism has roots in the religious ideas and practices among some of the
Indo-Aryan peoples of northwest India and the western Ganges plain of
ancient India during the
Vedic period (1500–500 BC).[1][2][6][4]
A gross misrepresentation of the sources, and shameless pov-pushing, based on one single sentence from one source. You proposed to move the page; instead you change the topic of this page, based on one sentence from a single source. We're reminded once again where you stand:
WP:NOTHERE. Hack, you didn't even read, or bother to change, what the first sentence says: "or (anachronistically) ancient Hinduism." Fuller quote: "This branch of Hinduism grows directly out of the religion brought by the Aryan Indo-Europeans." The topic is that religion of the Vedic Indo-Aryans; not present-day forms of Hinduism. Trying to present this as a form of Hinduism is all too obvious pov-pushing inappropriate, especially given the discussion going at the talkpage of the India-page. So, we stick to "Historical Vedic religion," to make it chrystal-clear what the topic is.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!18:50, 10 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I am sorry, I thought you were okay with it. This was a misunderstanding which I apologize for. We can keep the lead as it is for now and discuss it after some time. At least we can agree to move the page for now?
LearnIndology (
talk)
19:02, 10 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Nuance: Bruce M. Sullivan (2001), The A to Z of Hinduism,
p.9 explains that Vedism and Brahmninism differ from Hinduism, but that "Hinduism" can also be used as a convenient shorthand for the whole tradition starting with, or paying reverence to (is this correct English?):
Recently scholars have also begun to use the term "Vedism" [...] There is not absolute uniformity among scholars in this use of terminology, again relating to the definition of "Hinduism" with which this introduction began.
In that respect is it convenient to refer to Vedism and Brahmanism as "schools of Hinduism." But in this article, it's confusing. It explicitly treats the pre-Hindu Vedic religion.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!19:28, 10 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I just looked-up Monier-Williams: "I propose making use of the three words Vedism, Brahmanism, and Hinduism as convenient expressions for the three principal stages or phases in the development of that complicated system [...] Hinduism grew out of Brahmanism."
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!03:54, 14 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I see a peak at Ngram (nice tool!) for "Vedic religion" there at 1998; Wikipedia didn't exist then yet. So, it would rather be the other way round: Wikipedia followed the common name when this article was created.
Wikipedia:Article titles gives five criteria: "Article titles should be recognizable, concise, natural, precise, and consistent." "Vedic religion" fits those criteria better than "Vedism," but
Vedic religion is already in use as a disambiguation page; hence "Historical Vedic religion." It's a recognizable etc. delineation of the topic.
This is the first edit on this page
[1]. This article was supposed to be what
Indian religions is today. But anyway I still prefer "Vedism" over "Vedic religion". There are many technicalities related to the word "religion". Religion is a very controversial word here, that's why I avoided it. Scholars avoid using it even with modern Hinduism. Even Sir Monier Monier-Williams used the term "Vedism". Some sources describe "Vedism" as the oldest stratum and school of Hinduism while some consider it as a separate religion. Thus the term "Vedism" gives a wide overview of this school/religion controversy. Whether it is a school of Hinduism or a separate religion can be explained in great detail in the body of the article, but giving the judgment of "religion" in the very title of this article is misleading. The term "Vedism" sounds neither "religion" nor a "school", thus best to use keeping in view
WP:NPOV.
LearnIndology (
talk)
06:56, 11 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Please read
Google Ngram Viewer before trying to construct theories about what it says.
Funny, I also looked-up that one! Indian religions, indeed. But I don't see how "Scholars avoid using it [the term "religion"] even with modern Hinduism." The term "religion" does indeed have it's problems, as it is a western construct; it is for this reason that
Hinduism starts with "Hinduism is an Indian religion and dharma, or way of life." Nevertheless, it's the term we usually use. And anyway, "Vedism" is given as a synonym. Regards,
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!07:10, 11 April 2021 (UTC)reply
We have to evaluate each aspect of the title. If the title is not neutral, then we need to make it neutral. How do you justify the
WP:OR terms like "Historical". Regarding the use of the word "religion", it is a violation of
WP:NPOV, emphasizing just one aspect of the subject.
LearnIndology (
talk)
07:13, 11 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Why the term "historical" is being used has already been explained, multiple times. Don't drag in any policy that seems to suit your needs. We're talking about a historical period, not the present times.
NPOV refers to a neutral overview, c.q. presentation, of various points of view. I'm not aware of any scholarly source objecting against using the term "religion" for the, well, religion, of the Vedic people.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!07:23, 11 April 2021 (UTC)reply
You were free to label Vedism as "historic", had people had stopped practising Vedism, but there are more than 8 million adherents practising pure Vedism. So, there is no way Vedism can be labelled as something "historic" and only limited to "early Indo Aryans" when it is still being practised. This article needs to be re-written.
LearnIndology (
talk)
07:47, 11 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment I like "Historical Vedic religion" as it makes very clear that the article is only about pre-Hinduism history, and does not go into modern ramifications. It brings much needed clarification to the issues at hand, and avoids confusing everything. पाटलिपुत्र Pat(talk)07:07, 11 April 2021 (UTC)reply
No, you don't understand indeed, that's obvious. We're talking about the topic of the article, to delineate it from other topics. The surviving srauta-ritual is also mentioned, as stated above, with a hatnote to
Śrauta. That article treats the srauta-ritual in more detail, this article treats the religion of the Vedic people from ca. 1200 BCE.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!08:13, 11 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Support - I agree with LearnIndology, Vedism sounds more neutral and precise. Given the complexities of these terms, it is best to avoid the word "religion" in the title, but can be explained in the body. Dinesh (
talk)
12:34, 11 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Scope is too restricted for proposed title. The term "Historical Vedic religion" is very rare, however. I wonder if (1) this article should not be renamed to an even clearer title and (2) Vedism should be redirected somewhere else.
Vedic religion is a dab page.
Srnec (
talk)
00:30, 14 April 2021 (UTC)reply
References
^
abHeesterman 2005, pp. 9552–9553. sfn error: no target: CITEREFHeesterman2005 (
help)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Neutrality
@
LearnIndology: what are you trying to accomplish with tagging this article
diff for an alleged lack of neutrality? What exactly is not neutral about it?
WP:NPOV says:
Articles must not take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without editorial bias. This applies to both what you say and how you say it.
The nature of this article is mainly bais and has been kept deliberately limited to so-called "early Indo Aryans", ignoring the fact that it is still being practised by more than 8 million people. Although I can see sections giving space to it
[2], still that changes nothing, as lead doesn't summarise that and "declare" Vedism as "religion" and ignores the fact that it can also be described as "school" of Hinduism. Apart from that, we are already discussing the title. This article is full of POV, so I am placing NPOV tag.
LearnIndology (
talk)
08:31, 11 April 2021 (UTC)reply
The topic of this article is the religion of the historical Vedic people. Wiki-policies encourage delineating precise topics. We already have articles on
Hinduism and the
History of Hinduism. Those are braod overview articles. This article, on the Vedic religion, provides more detail on a subtopic, just like for example
Vedanta provides more detail on a subtopic, and
Advaita Vedanta provides more detail on a subtopic of Vedanta.
The article does not ignore the fact that Vedic rituals are still being practiced, as you acknowledge yourself, and which is also mentioned in the lead:
These ideas and practices are found in the Vedic texts, and some Vedic rituals are still practiced today,[7][8][9] though present-day Hinduism is markedly different from the historical Vedic religion.[5][10][note 1]
"Religion" is a common term, and the phrase "Vedic religion" is the common name, as explained before. "Hinduism" is also regarded as a religion; this point of discussion is actually pointless.
This article is called "Historical Vedic religion" and not "vedic religion," beceause
Vedic religion is a disambiguation page.
Describing Vedism and Brahmanism as "schools of Hinduism" is hardly relevant here, as the topic is the religion of the historical Vedic people, not Hinduism or the history of Hinduism. Sullivan explains that "Hinduism" is significantly different from "Brahmanism," but that "it is also convenient to have a single term for the whole complex of interrelated traditions. So, if you insist, we mention the ambiguity of the term "Hinduism":
Brahmanism evolved into Hinduism, which is significantly different from the preceding Brahmanism, though "it is also convenient to have a single term for the whole complex of interrelated traditions.[5][note 1]
The transformation from "Brahmanism" into "Hinduism" is also explained in the article:
The transition from ancient Brahmanism into schools of Hinduism was a form of evolution in interaction with non-Vedic traditions, one that preserved many of the central ideas and theosophy in the Vedas, and synergistically integrated non-Vedic ideas.[139][2][1][16][note 2]
Place this template on an article when you have identified a serious issue of balance and the lack of a WP:Neutral point of view, and you wish to attract editors with different viewpoints to the article. Please also explain on the article's talk page why you are adding this tag, identifying specific issues that are actionable within Wikipedia's content policies.
An unbalanced or non-neutral article is one that does not fairly represent the balance of perspectives of high-quality, reliable secondary sources. A balanced article presents mainstream views as being mainstream, and minority views as being minority views. The personal views of Wikipedia editors or the public are irrelevant.
Please provide specific examples, and suggest possible improvements, with
WP:RS. Otherwise, the template will be removed again, as being baseless.
Vedism is the oldest stratum of religious activity in India. Vedism is one of the major traditions that shaped Hinduism.[1][2] It constituted the religious ideas and practices among some of the
Indo-Aryan peoples of northwest India and the western Ganges plain of
ancient India during the
Vedic period (1500–500 BC).[3][4][5][6] These ideas and practices are found in the
Vedic texts, and some Vedic rituals are still practiced today,[7][8][9] though present-day Hinduism is markedly different from the historical Vedic religion.[5][10][11]
It's less neutral, and incorrect. "Vedism is the oldest stratum of religious activity in India" is bullshit. Almost every author agrees that the Vedic religion, and certainly Hinduism, incorporated Harappan and animistic influences, which
predate the Vedic religion. Also, you removed "Brahmanism," so you made scope smaller, instead of broader. Vedism evolved into Brahmanism during the Vedic period. At best, you can add "Brahmanism is one of the major traditions that shaped Hinduism" before "though present-day."
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!09:56, 13 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I have updated the lead as per your request.
Vedism (also known as Vedicism, or (anachronistically) ancient Hinduism[a]), and subsequent Brahmanism (also called Brahminism) is one of the major traditions that shaped Hinduism.[1][2] It constituted the religious ideas and practices among some of the
Indo-Aryan peoples of northwest India and the western Ganges plain of
ancient India during the
Vedic period (1500–500 BC).[3][4][5][6] These ideas and practices are found in the
Vedic texts, and some Vedic rituals are still practiced today,[7][8][9] though present-day Hinduism is markedly different from the historical Vedic religion.[5][10][note 1]
You forgot "Brahmanism is one of the major traditions that shaped Hinduism." You probably mean
The historical Vedic religion (also known as Vedicism, Vedism or (anachronistically) ancient Hinduism[a]), and subsequent Brahmanism (also called Brahminism), constituted the religious ideas and practices among some of the
Indo-Aryan peoples of northwest India and the western Ganges plain of
ancient India during the
Vedic period (1500–500 BC).[1][2][3][4] These ideas and practices are found in the
Vedic texts, and some Vedic rituals are still practiced today.[5][6][7] Brahmanism is one of the major traditions that shaped Hinduism, though present-day Hinduism is markedly different from the historical Vedic religion.[3][8][note 1]
References
^Heesterman 2005, pp. 9552–9553. sfn error: no target: CITEREFHeesterman2005 (
help)
I am sorry, but I am not trying to change the scope of the article, but widen the scope. The lead below summarises the whole article and gives the reader an idea that [Vedism was the religion of "early Indo-Aryans", as well as, it is a tradition that shaped Hinduism]. In my opinion, there can be no better lead than this to summarise the article:
Vedism (also known as Vedicism, or (anachronistically) ancient Hinduism[a]), and subsequent Brahmanism (also called Brahminism) is one of the major traditions that shaped Hinduism.[1][2] It constituted the religious ideas and practices among some of the
Indo-Aryan peoples of northwest India and the western Ganges plain of
ancient India during the
Vedic period (1500–500 BC).[3][4][5][6] These ideas and practices are found in the
Vedic texts, and some Vedic rituals are still practiced today,[7][8][9] though present-day Hinduism is markedly different from the historical Vedic religion.[5][10][note 1]
Note: Brahminism has not been ignored here as you were pointing out above. It is there in the very first line, that too in bold words:)
We first define what the topic is; eventually we describe it's relation to other topics. You're turning things upside down: "Vedism [...] is one of the major traditions that shaped Hinduism" is not a defintion. The full sentence is grammatically incorrect: itmentions two traditiins, but refers to them in the singular. And it is historically incorrect: Vedism evolved into Brahmanism, and Brahmanism is one of the main constituents of Hinduism.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!12:38, 13 April 2021 (UTC)reply
The sources say that Vedism evolved into Brahmanism, and that this Brahmanical ideology was subsequently synthesized with non-Vedic religions, when Brahmanism lost influence (that is, income). So, I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!14:02, 13 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Source clearly says "Vedism was one of the major traditions that shaped Hinduism.". See
[6]
Vedism is the oldest stratum of religious activity in India for which there exist written materials. It was one of the major traditions that shaped Hinduism.
Now I also understand what you meant with "Vedism is the oldest stratum of religious activity in India"; you omitted "written materials." I've changed "Brahmanism" into "it" (no, not the killer clown); I hope that suffices.
By the way, this is interesting info from the EB:
Though it is impossible to say when Vedism eventually gave way to classical Hinduism, a decrease in literary activity among the Vedic schools from the 5th century bce onward can be observed, and about that time a more Hindu character began to appear.
500-300 BCE is also given by other sources as the onset of the
Hindu synthesis. Really fascinating: how a religious tradition "disappeared," and yet survived, as some sorf of archaeological layer in a present-day religion.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!14:18, 13 April 2021 (UTC)reply
PS: in the sentence "Vedism [...] is one of the major traditions that shaped Hinduism," the main topic is not Vedism, but Hinduism, if you understand what I mean. Regards,
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!14:26, 13 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Some more from EB:
When Vedic religion gradually evolved into Hinduism between the 6th and 2nd centuries bce, the texts, taken collectively, became the most sacred literature of Hinduism. They are known as Shruti (“What Is Heard”), the divinely revealed section of Hindu literature—in contrast to the later strata of religious literature known as Smriti (“What Is Remembered”), traditional texts attributed to human authors. But in modern Hinduism the Shruti, with the exception of the Upanishads and a few hymns of the Rigveda, is now little known, while some of the Smriti texts remain extremely influential.
Thank you for this
[7], and indeed it is fascinating to see how these traditions have survived till date, especially in Indian weddings. I was reading about Hindu weddings the other day and I was quite surprised to see that Rigvedic deities are primarily worshipped during Hindu weddings.
The Vara Prekshanam ritual takes place after the couple has seen one another for the first time on their wedding day. The groom prays to gods Brihaspati, Varuna, Indra, and Surya to erase any doshas (defects) that the bride has. He prays for a long marriage blessed with happiness and children.
The groom invokes the gods Soma, Gandharva, and Agni for strength and his bride's youth.
...Oh, Lord Indra, cleanse this girl of all her illnesses and make her shine in splendor..."
I hold your hand to keep you with me to raise good children and till you become old. Devatas including Indra have offered you to me to become the Lady in charge of the house.
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Historical Vedic religion → Vedism – The last move request was closed prematurely and the views of some editors changed at the last moment and more time was required for some editors to make comments. We already had an exhaustive debate so I believe it is not needed now, Thus, I request everyone here to please comment on their view, whether it is Support or Oppose. Regards
LearnIndology (
talk)
16:08, 15 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose, for the same reasons stated by me above and the points brought up by Joshua Jonathan. 16:15, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Support. I agree with LearnIndology. I went through the discussion and it seems logical to rename the article to "Vedism" in view of the fact that aspects of it are still practiced today. I agree with Joshua here too
[8]desmay (
talk)
00:25, 16 April 2021 (UTC)reply
The Vedic religion was created by Brahmins and the Vedas were written down by Brahmins. Vedism was subsequently also called Brahmanism. Adding my sources:
J. Mark, Joshua (September 29, 2021).
"Brahmanism".
World History Encyclopedia.
Archived from the original on March 29, 2023. Retrieved December 19, 2023. Brahmanism (also known as Vedic Religion) is the belief system that developed from the Vedas during the Late Vedic Period (c. 1100-500 BCE) originating in the Indus Valley Civilization after the Indo-Aryan Migration c. 2000-1500 BCE.
What seems to be the problem here? why are @
Joshua Jonathan and @
Capitals00 rejecting my sources and reverting my edits for no good reasons?
[The historical Vedic religion (also known as Vedicism, Vedism], Brahminism (note: The historic Vedic religion was further called Brahmanism in the late Vedic period and the timeline that followed after. (Mahal2021; Cooke 2011))
and
The Vedic religion was founded and written down by
Brahmins in around 2500-1500 BCE.(Mahal2021, Cooke 2011) It was further also known as Brahminism.[Mahal2021, quote: The ancient Vedic religion - also known as Vedism or Brahmanism - was founded by ancestors of Brahmins between 2500 and 1500 BCE; Cooke 2011)
After pushback, you changed the second addition to
The Vedic religion was founded and written down by
Brahmins in around after 1500 BCE.(Mahal2021; Cooke 2011) It was further also known as Brahminism.(Mahal2021, quote: The ancient Vedic religion - also known as Vedism or Brahmanism - was founded by ancestors of Brahmins between 2500 and 1500 BCE; Cooke 2011; DMFigueira)
There are several problems:
Brahminism developed out of the Vedic religion; they are not the same.
"The Vedic religion was founded and written down by
Brahmins in around after 1500 BCE":
Mahlal et al. (2021) state: "The ancient Vedic religion - also known as Vedism or Brahmanism - was founded by ancestors of Brahmins between 2500 and 1500 BCE." They do not say that it was founded by Brahmins, but by ancestors of Brahmins.
Cooke (2011)(p.53, not 52) writes: "...beliefs brought into India by Aryan-speaking Indo-Europeans. Their orally transmitted religious hymns, prayers, and rituals werew ritten down in the Vedas between 1400 and 900 BCE." That's quite different from "around after 1500 BCE," which is itself grammatically incorrect.
I agreed with the date consensus and didn't notice in my first 2 edits. I changed after the other user pointed it out.
I agree that Brahminism was a later progeny of the Vedic religion and not vedic religion itself. I'll make another edit after 24 hours taking all of your feedback into consideration.
Oh right, Mahal et al. (2021) refer to Cooke (2011). Mahal et al. also state "The Vedic religion gradually evolved into Hinduism and became a fusion of various Indian cultures and traditions with diverse roots (Bowker 1997)." Apart from logically incorrect ("became a fusion"), this sentence sounds very much like "scholars regard Hinduism as a fusion[note 6] or synthesis[28][note 7] of Brahmanical orthopraxy[note 8] with various Indian cultures,[29][note 9] having diverse roots[30][note 10] and no specific founder.[31]" (
Hinduism).
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!21:59, 19 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Mentioning this alternate term as first alternate term
diff is giving
WP:UNDUEWEIGHT to it, as it is less used, and a misnomer, as explained in the article. Also, the references used are not impressive:
David Smith, Hinduism and Modernity: "follow Louis Renou in seeing the religion of the Vedas as 'ancient Hinduism' (Renou 1968: 19); ample iconographic proof of the unity of Vedism and early classical Hinduism is provided by Srinivasan 1997."
Doris Srinivasan, Many Heads, Arms and Eyes: Origin, Meaning and Form of Multiplicity in Indian Art: "Evidence to support that contention constitutes the main part of this chapter. From the evidence it follows that Vedic Rudra-Śiva could relate to Hindu Śiva as Vedism, or ancient Hinduism, relates to Hinduism proper."
Why do they use this term? No explanation... That's not a summary of the article.
Further, the edit also added " and forms the predecessor of
modern Hinduism.", and changed
The Vedic religion is one of the major traditions which
shaped Hinduism, though present-day
Hinduism is significantly different from the historical Vedic religion.
into
The Vedic religion is the precursor of modern-day Hinduism, though present-day
Hinduism is significantly different from the historical Vedic religion.
That's incorrect; it's not the predecessor, but one of the predecessors.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk!04:51, 17 July 2024 (UTC)reply Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha> tags or {{efn}} templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}} template or {{notelist}} template (see the
help page). Cite error: There are <ref group=note> tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=note}} template (see the
help page).