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I believe that the photo of Thoreau's cabin and the sculpture outside of it violates the sculptor's copyright. Publicly displayed art is copyrighted and may not be reproduced without the permission of the artist. Please see http://legalminds.lp.findlaw.com/list/cni-copyright/msg12434.html for more info. Should this image be submitted to wikipedia's copyright agent? Fboland 03:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
The Article includes no information about his life between 1841-1844 and 1849-1850.
Again, the Eurocentric or generally anti-Indian/anti-Hindu Wikipedia conveniently forgets to mention that Thoreau AND Emerson were heavily influenced by Vedanta and specifically the Gita. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.39.64 ( talk) 08:48, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi there, I am wondering if the community wants a link to my web site, www.riapress.com. It is a completely non-revenue/non-profit web site in which I produce completely free public domain ebooks that are designed to be printed at home on regular computer printers (as opposed to read online or produced as normal expensive books). I also correct for typographical issues like tables, etc, that books on gutenberg and many other sites ignore. They are pretty handy - I've had up to 5000 downloads of these books per month, more than 50% from outside the USA. I just finished my ebook of Walden and will be adding other Thoreau titles to my site. Would the community be supportive of a link in the links sections of the relevant articles to these books? Thanks. Riapress 04:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC) Ok folks, since I didn't hear back, I'm going to add the link referenced directly above. I think it's useful for readers. If anyone doesn't think it's appropriate, feel free to remove. Thanks! Riapress 05:07, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Thoreau page is getting kind of big, and needs to be organized/split into subsections. It's getting kind of rambling, and organizing it would make it easier to read, and to edit information. Thanks, Dan 22:11, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I made several revisions today to tighten up the article and make it more chronological. (I wrote the first major expansion of the original stub, back in '03.) I don't think it needs reorganizing now, although sub-titles and an index might help. Thanks to everyone for their contributions. --WH, 18 Jan 2006
I added some information on his family, divided "Life and Works" into "Life and Works" "Later Years and Death" and "Criticisms" subtitles, and re-arranged some paragraphs so that it'll hopefully flow a little better. I think "Life and Works" has room for another subsection or so. Dan 00:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Made more revisions today to correct facts, tighten prose, and eliminate repetitions and non-sequiturs. I also made the section titles more parallel and moved one section lower. It's now a major biographical article and deserves to be rated highly. Thanks to all contributors. --WH, 23 Aug 2006
seriously to me it seems like thoreau has a lot of issue of possible hypocrisy, especially consdering his ideas 'original' to him. like to see something about that somewhere.
I would need some particulars to understand what you mean. Thoreau cites hundreds of sources in his books, always giving credit where it is due. You may always attribute a person's ideas to earlier influences; but true originality lies in collecting the wisdom of the past and making it relevant to the present and future. By expressing the importance of low material consumption and the preservation of natural resources, Thoreau was highly original for his day. --WH
Can anyone confirm what I have heard, that he was also jailed for non-compliance with compulsory tithes to the state-established church he was deemed to be affiliated to? I know he had strong conscientious objections, and I gather he actually got jailed for that too. I am pretty confident of this but don't have the reference to hand. I have used him as an example under Tithes. PML.
Some years ago, the State met me in behalf of the Church, and commanded me to pay a certain sum toward the support of a clergyman whose preaching my father attended, but never I myself. "Pay," it said, "or be locked up in the jail." I declined to pay. But, unfortunately, another man saw fit to pay it. I did not see why the schoolmaster should be taxed to support the priest, and not the priest the schoolmaster: for I was not the State's schoolmaster, but I supported myself by voluntary subscription. I did not see why the lyceum should not present its tax-bill, and have the State to back its demand, as well as the Church. However, at the request of the selectmen, I condescended to make some such statement as this in writing:—"Know all men by these presents, that I, Henry Thoreau, do not wish to be regarded as a member of any incorporated society which I have not joined." This I gave to the town clerk; and he has it. The State, having thus learned that I did not wish to be regarded as a member of that church, has never made a like demand on me since; though it said that it must adhere to its original presumption that time. If I had known how to name them, I should then have signed off in detail from all the societies which I never signed on to; but I did not know where to find a complete list. Scott Burley 00:49, May 5, 2004 (UTC)
i think someone should disambiguate the link to M. L. King -- i assume this is meant to link to MLK Jr. but i am not certain enough to edit it myself. (v)
As for Thoreau and Lincoln being the only noted Americans that opposed the Mexican War: according to John A. Crow's "The Epic of Latin America", the Mexican War was quite unpopular, and the least popular American war until Vietnam. I am sure there were others.
Jorge Luis Borges considered Thoreau as an anarchist thinker - would anyone care to elaborate on this? I haven't read enough of Thoreau's work to decide if this is the case.
see quotes at end of essay; Thoreau writes that he is opposed to government; this is pretty much the abiding principle of anarchism.
From the man himself, in Civil Disobedience: "But, to speak practically and as a citizen, unlike those who call themselves no-government men, I ask for, not at once no government, but at once a better government. Let every man make known what kind of government would command his respect, and that will be one step toward obtaining it." 24.99.149.217 19:54, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
He was an early advocate of recreational hiking and canoeing, of conserving natural resources on private land, and of preserving wilderness as public land. This may be somewhat true but I am not sure.. Where does Thoreau write this? KAM 13:46, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am not familar with the trespassing. He does say a township where a primitive forest waves...is fitted not only for corn and potatoes but also to rasie poets and philosophers. He speaks of the wilderness as a source of raw materials, He used logging roads to travel about in the what he called wilderness on his trips to Maine. KAM 15:19, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"All Walden Wood might have been preserved for our park forever, with Walden in its midst." According to W. Barksdale Maynard in Walden Pond, A History.(p 140), this is one of Thoreau's most memorable quotes. I am not sure from which Journal this quote is derived. Certainly, this speaks to Thoreau's advocacy of public land preserves. RMY 17:56, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
The source of the quotation listed above,"All Walden Wood might have been preserved for our park forever, with Walden in its midst." ,is Thoreau's Journal: 15-Oct-1859. I hope this helps. Rmackenzie 10:43, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Ironically, the house he built, the land he tilled for crops, and the trees he cleared for same, all in the relative wilds of Walden Wood, each puts the lie to such a consideration. As in many things, he thought in idealisms that were greater than those to which he held himself. 209.214.230.142 17:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The Journal entry for January 3, 1861 calls for preserving "the natural features which make a township handsome," founding committees "to see that the beauty of the town received no detriment," and declaring that "the top of Mt. Washington should not be private property." These are all quite early declarations of what later came to be called natural preservation--WH 23 Aug 2006
There are accounts of Thoreau being a lazy person. He seemed to have relied on friends and family during his stay at Walden Pond. Anyone know if this is true?
Lazy he was not. Friends often commented on his athletic talent, his energy, and his dogged tendency to drive himself farther on outings than was prudent. A typical day after 1855 was writing all morning, the afternoon given to surveying or hiking and boating, and the evening to reading or time with his family. He made an adequate living from many sources and shared his income with his family. Yes, he built his house at Walden on Emerson's land. Some friends helped him raise the roof beam. He visited his family now and then. All true, but hardly indications of laziness. He caught his fatal cold by staying out too long in a wet snow to count rings in felled trees. --WH 29 Sep 2005
I've researched some later works on Thoreau, though not in detail, but enough to say that he did adopt the vegetarian lifestyle for a certain period of his life though not consistently & for ever.
One good source that claims him a vegetarian is Henry Salt's biography of Thoreau (2000 edition). He was no doubt a very influential and known advocator, but the book in chapter 9 (Doctrines) does mention that he was a 'vegetarian in practice' for a greater part of his life.
Also, mentioned in the 'Introduction' is '...This English Thoreauvian was at once a rationalist, socialist, pacifist, 'vegetarian', animals' rights activist, ..'
(Also to be noted is that this edition makes use of some unpublished papers extensively in the introduction section)
The same claim about his vegetarianism is also made in the 2005 edition of this book by Salt and many other authors during the 2000's, like Thoreau's Living Ethics: Walden and the Pursuit of Virtue, by Philip Cafaro.
Also, the 1995 edition of Walden claims "Although T was not an absolute vegetarian, as were some of his transcendentalist friends, he did follow a modified vegetarian diet for many years" (the later editions do not make the same claim)
A good description of Henry David Thoreau with regards to his vegetarianism can be found in the book 'Awe for the Tiger, Love for the Lamb: A Chronicle of Sensibility to Animals, edited by Rod Preece' on page 259... though Preece does not emphasize on the fact that he is a vegetarian, just mentions of vegetarianism in his nature.
Any comments? ---- Vanita. 27th Jan 06
He was vegetarian?? Is there a source for this? In Walden he catches fish. In Allegash and East Branch he eats moose meat and elswhere shows spending money for pork. KAM 14:11, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Several of the Transcendentalists, notably Bronson Alcott and Charles Lane, experimented with vegetarian diets. (Alcott thought he should eat only "asipring" vegetables, the ones that grow upward toward heaven (celery), instead of downward into earth (carrots, potatoes). Thoreau preferred a vegetable diet, but he did eat meat, eggs, and dairy at times, though not eagerly for they gave him indigestion. In "Higher Laws" he says that food is less important than the spirit or imagination with which we eat it. He did have a sweet tooth and was especially fond of spice cake and fruit pies. Every philosopher needs a weakness! --WH 29 Sep 2005
Among the many points highlighted above, Thoreau's "Walden" gives good reason to believe he indulged in and enjoyed the omnivorous life: "As I came home through the woods with my string of fish, trailing my pole, it being now quite dark, I caught a glimpse of a woodchuck stealing across my path, and felt a strange thrill of savage delight, and was strongly tempted to sieze and devour him raw; not that I was hungry then, except for that wildness which he represented. ... I found in myself, and still find, an instinct toward a higher, or, as it is named, spiritual life, as do most men, and another toward a primitive rank and savage one, and I reverence them both." This quote, in my opinion, also highlights excellently the difference between Thoreau's Transcendentalism and that of Emerson and others. 24.99.149.217 03:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
In the main page of Thoreau, we are provided with the land area of Concord as being 26 mile² or 67 km². However, during Thoreau's time, maps and surveys, including those drafted by Thoreau, were scaled to the "rod." We also find the measure of "acre" being used commonly. Would it not be more appropriate to use a measure of Concord as being 16,640 acres or, a bit cumbersome for sure, the equivalent measure of 2,2624,000 rod²?
For reference, perhaps we just add these for comparative analysis? RMY 22:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
It is important to be careful about claiming that HDT worked in the pencil factory for most of his life. He only worked there for a couple years, after which he moved on to survey work, as well a number of other occupations.
Also, while his lectures weren't as "successful" as Emerson's, this is a moot point. Very few lecturers of the time rivaled Emerson, and the comparison seems strained by the RWE/HDT connection. Simply because we connect them geographically, philosophically, etc. does not mean the success of their lectures bears comparison. We must remember Thoreau lectured out of compulsion to speak out on important issues, and Emerson lectured more to fulfill the role of the "public intellectual." We find him saying as much in "The American Scholar." To claim that HDT met with less success in his lectures ignores that we remember him yet for far fewer of them.
In sum, revisions need to be made concerning his life's work; his vocations and occupations ranged much farther afield than simply pencil maker, writer, and lecturer. Cyclo1964 ( talk) 00:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Is it possible to get a reference for the addition made on 1/9/06? However he disdained both occupations. The pencil factory he disliked for keeping him indoors, and lecturing he felt required him to "dumb down" his ideas for the audience. Also, he apparently wasn't a very good lecturer.-- RMY 17:47, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
It's in the "Cambridge Campanion to Henry David Thoreau" in the works cited. Also, he wrote in his journal of his disdain of lecturing, and his numerous critics compared his discourses unfavorably with Emerson's. Dan 00:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps this will help your understanding of Transcendentalism a bit: First, Transcendentalism was most assuredly NOT Unitarian, as is suggested below. Emerson's theological and philosophical thinking has roots in his life as a Unitarian minister, but Transcendentalism grew out of his rejection of that. And in Emerson's "Nature," he writes of becoming the "transparent eyeball," one of the most famous images in Transcendental thought. He would enter the woods and "see all and be all." Transcendentalism has less to do with any Christian theology and more with "communing with the Over-Soul." A theological lineage exists from Calvinism to Unitarianism to Transcendentalism, surely, but Emerson's thought held Transcendentalism as the infinite telos of the divine. That said, both Emerson's and Thoreau's writings reveal many instances where actually realizing and experiencing the Transcendental existence becomes problematic. Cyclo1964 ( talk) 00:21, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Quote:
"Transcendentalism was naturalistic and mystical, rejecting deterministic Calvinism. It was inspired by Swedenborg, Kant, Buddhism, Hinduism, and other non-Christian sources. It was not atheistic, but Unitarian and thus did not see Jesus as divine."
This statement represents a wide misinterpretation of Transendentalist philosophy. Transcendentalism, as expressed in Emerson's essays (and of particular interest, his speech to the Harvard School of Divinity), does not hold that Jesus was not divine. Rather, it holds that nature itself is divine, and that man has a divine spirit within him that represents perfect virtue. Emerson expounded on this by stating that Jesus embodies this divinity by being the man who most closely approximated man's highest virtue.
In defense of the author(s) of this text, Emerson did also assert in this same speech was that conventional Christianity is overly concerned with the person of Jesus Christ, rather than the principles he embodied.
Keenspotter 20:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)Keenspotter
Calvinism, Swedenborg, Kant, Buddhism, Hinduism and other? Can this be dumbed down a notch? Save in depth explaination for Transcendentalism. In fact from that page; "Transcendental movement may be partially described as a slightly later, American outgrowth of Romanticism" I am over my head here but is that a good start? KAM 17:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I would see the entirety of the quoted sentences removed, though perhaps another passage from the Transcendentalism entry would be a more appropriate replacement: "Among their core beliefs was an ideal spiritual state that 'transcends' the physical and empirical and is only realized through the individual's intuition, rather than through the doctrines of established religions." Keenspotter 17:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
What evidence is there Thoreau is a pacifist? Some scholars say he was not, mostly based on his defense of John Brown. KAM 00:51, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I am an editor on the wikipedia anarchism article. There is an editor(s?) who wishes to include a paragraph detailing Thoreau's (along with Jesus and Thomas Jefferson) influence on modern anarchist thought. There is also a vocal group who do not agree that such information is pertinent to an article on anarchism. I thought that there might be people here who could contribute something to the debate. Thanks, Blockader.
I first started the Thoreau page, and I come back to it every year to see how it's growing. Today I edited the bit about him and anarchism before reading this discussion. I apologize and I also respect the strong opinions that folks are expressing here. Thoreau is problematic because his ideas were early, dismissed at the time, and now have grown to seem almost clairvoyant. Putting labels on him like vegetarian, environmentalist, or anarchist is therefore nearly always apocryphal. Those are later ideas which we may trace back to his influence, but it's an exaggeration to draw him into a particular camp--he hated being more than a party of one! So I altered the statement about anarchism to indicate that he advocated limited government, not its abolition. Although these subjects have not yet entered the article, there are debates about his religion and sexual orientation. He was eclectic, flexible, and inconsistent about his ideas. I hope we can respect that (to me) delightful variety and eccentricity and not try to box him in too tightly. I base this judgement on four decades of work as a Thoreau scholar, and as the former editor of the PUP edition of his Writings. Thanks, WH --28 Dec 2006
Was Thoreau actually a cat lover? does it actually say that anywhere?
Yes, many times in his Journal. Here are 3 examples: While on a river excursion, he and Sophia rescued "a little dot of a kitten" whose instincts were highly developed (May 22, 1853). The family cat was Min, another rescued orphan (Feb 28, 1856). One autumn Thoreau observed her "studying ornithology between the corn-rows" (Oct 1, 1858). Dates refer to entries in the 1906 edition of the Journal. --WH 23 Aug 2006
Emma Goldman was quite well noted anarchist. This is one thing she said about him. Also, Thoreau was mentioned three times in that article. Here is the quote by Goldman concerning him and whether he was an anachist:
Referring to the American government, the greatest American Anarchist, David Thoreau, said: "Government, what is it but a tradition, though a recent one, endeavoring to transmit itself unimpaired to posterity, but each instance losing its integrity; it has not the vitality and force of a single living man. Law never made man a whit more just; and by means of their respect for it, even the well disposed are daily made agents of injustice." Emma Goldman
(from Emma Goldman: Anarchism: What it Really Stands For
From the 1917 edition of Emma Goldman's Anarchism and Other Essays)
Are you stalking me, Ungovernable? Because it's starting to look like it. Whis key Rebel lion 02:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
You don't just turn up on articles and article talk pages that I edit on but on user talk pages, too. It's called wikistalking. Thoreaus was an anarchist get over it. You said "Goldman can't be seen as the be all end all of anarchist labelling." You could say that (or that sort of thing) about any source. Whis key Rebel lion 03:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
"Although at times it sounds as if Thoreau is advocating anarchy, what he demands is a better government, and what he refuses to acknowledge is the authority of one that has become so morally corrupt as to lose the consent of those governed. “There will never be a really free and enlightened State,” he argues, “until the State comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived, and treats him accordingly” (“Civil Disobedience”)" from: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/thoreau/ He advocated a limited government, not abolition of government. ( Pacepave ( talk) 16:06, 25 April 2010 (UTC))
You just went on and on about The Politics of Individualism by L. Susan Brown. and liberalism. What has any of this got to do with Thoreau? Thoreau was not a liberal. You can't be serious. And I doubt that Susan Brown will ever affect the number of people, both great leader and not, anarchist and not, that Thoreau did by 100,000 of a percent. Instead of telling me to read this tedious and predictable sounding Brown, you might do better to read Thoreau. I am finding 100s of thousands of references to Thoreau as an anarchist. But I doubt you will accept any of them because you don't want to. Wikipedia is supposedly an encyclopedia that bases what it says on what the world accepts as real. Well the world, apparantly, says that Thoreau was an anarchist. And while we're at it, Jesus was talking about sharing property, in Book of Matthew, 2000 years ago. I think that beats Karl Marx by just a few years.
google search Thoreau anarchist Here are just a few results where Thoreau is called an anarchist, out of 125,000 results for the search: Thoreau anarchist
http://www.google.com/search?q=Thoreau+anarchist&hl=en&hs=pD&lr=&client=opera&rls=en&start=10&sa=N
--- http://www.vcu.edu/engweb/transcendentalism/authors/thoreau/critonrcg.html In the 1920s, an age of relative affluence, Thoreau was popularly seen as an anarchist, a rebel. In the critics' minds, but there were mixed opinions. Most of these reflect a reaction to the materialism of the time. Eliseo Vivas noted that Thoreau's "Resistance to Civil Government," in The New Student, was ". . . one of the first native attacks upon American Imperialism. . ." (34) Vivas was writing when the US was involved in many countries in South America and Central America. Vivas saw Thoreau's politics, especially his stance on resistance to government, as troubling, "Thoreau's ideals are inoperative in the real, everyday world, and because he will not compromise his ideals, at all, they have no effect upon the world: they are politically useless." (35) In the 1960s, we will see how useful Thoreau becomes.
http://www.strike-the-root.com/columns/knapp/knapp1.html (anarchism - about Thoreau)
http://www.weisbord.org/conquest10.htm * read this Thoreau's love of nature and his advocacy of Anarchist doctrine was far more than an accidental combination. Just as, in America, Nature took the place of society and "freedom" meant nature, as "restraint" meant State and Society, so have many Anarchists proved that their hatred of the State was really the hatred of artificial society and but another side of their love of nature. Between certain types of American Anarchists and "Friends of Nature" there is very little difference.
http://www.spunk.org/texts/intro/sp000282.txt Throughout American history, there has been a tradition of both violent and pacifist Anarchism. Henry David Thoreau, a nonviolent Anarchist writer, and Emma Goldman an Anarchist activist, are a couple of examples. Activist Anarchism, however, was mainly sustained by immigrants from Europe. In the late 1800's, Anarchism was a part of life for many. In 1886, four Anarchists were wrongfully executed for alleged involvement in the Haymarket bombing, in which seven policemen were killed. President McKinley was assassinated in 1901 by Leon Czolgosz, a Polish Anarchist.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5065/onsite.html The articles below are available on this server. The selection does not imply an endorsement above and beyond other anarchist articles referenced in the Anarchist Sampler pages. Some have typo corrections or additional HTML markup from the original e-text; in other cases, the articles were stored at sites relatively isolated from the anarchist Web
http://www.infoshop.org/wiki/index.php/Anarchism_in_the_United_States#Transcendentalism Thoreau's beliefs very much echoed the ideals of anarchism. His most famous quote in this regard is "That government is best which governs least." His ideas on individual sovereignty as well as his opposition to illegitimate authority certainly rings of anarchist belief. In fact, some have gone as far as to say Thoreau was an anarchist, the term just had not been around yet. He certainly inspired many radicals and anarchists including Edward Abbey and Emma Goldman, who called him "the greatest American anarchist."
Those are just a few. Take all of them and they represent an awful lot of people that say Thoreau was an anarchist. Whis key Rebel lion 03:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
125,000 sources could be the viral result of one biased Wikipedia page. Thoreau was a master of harmony, not discord. Just because he critiqued government doesn't make him an Anarchist. He advocated limited government, not an abolition of government. There is a bias here Towards identifying Thoreau as an Anarchist that Wikipedia needs to address. ( Pacepave ( talk) 16:28, 25 April 2010 (UTC))
Okay, well I'll agree to that change, except he didn't just influence American anarchism. He influenced, at least Tolstoy and Goldman, who was Russian originally. Whis key Rebel lion 21:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
The ten in-line links presently in the article at the very least could be converted to footnotes. Given their less than stellar quality, and the fact that the article has no footnotes, no great harm would come from having these links removed, as several are writings that do not either cite their own sources, or generally reference a number of works, for biographical information. The geneology web site seems to be a private effort. The kenkifer.com analysis has several mistakes. All of these references could be improved by finding better sources, instead of using these as footnotes...which leads to the bigger problem for this article--that the events described are poorly sourced, in that it's not clear which of the fine references listed at the bottom of the article are relied upon for the numerous statements in the text. -- Yellowdesk 05:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Here's the list of current in-line links:
- http://www.sniggle.net/Experiment/index.php?entry=rtcg#p03
- http://www.sniggle.net/Experiment/index.php?entry=rtcg#p01
- http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=maold&id=I18020
- http://www.americanpoems.com/poets/thoreau/
- http://thoreau.eserver.org/hawthornes.html
- http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/thoreau.htm
- http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/thoreau.htm
- http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/thoreau.htm
- http://www.americanpoems.com/poets/thoreau/
- http://www.kenkifer.com/Thoreau/
The article seems to make no mention of Thoreau's poetry. As much of Thoreau's early work was poetry (until people close to him, such as Emerson, advised him to focus on prose) I think mentioning these works would have some merit. 71.162.92.26 03:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I am moving this here for discussion because I find it, at the very least, flawed and possibly irrelevant:
Now, first of all, I seem to recollect that Thoreau is actually misquoted (or, at least, paraphrased) in that part of the movie, and certainly not quoted exactly as in this excerpt. The second quote, or quote-within-a-quote, is fairly trivial. Truth be told, by comparison with the rest of the content in that section on Thoreau's influence, this part about him being quoted in a movie seems really trivial and unimportant. I love the movie, but this is just not that vital to an understanding of Thoreau. Any thoughts? --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 03:16, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Well...while mentioning references to Thoreau in modern popular culture may seem a bit irrelevant to Thoreau himself...I dunno, maybe it might give an insight into how modern society interprets Thoreau? Besides, mentioning those things only takes a couple of sentences...maybe they could all be put together in a short section like those that I've seen in some wikipedia articles-where they put like a list of admittedly irrelevant information that remotely concerns the article's topic-such as stuff in the media or fiction or whatever. 66.32.200.185 ( talk) 23:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Might it be meaningful to talk about his writings on Botany? I read Faith in a Seed this past fall and found it very interesting, so I think that his interest in Botany might merit a little more mention in the article. Beat Buddha ( talk) 19:53, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Could we have a citation that Thoreau pronounced his own name /ˈθʌroʊ/, as indicated? Also, /ˈθʌroʊ/ is the pronunciation of the word 'thorough', and it does not rhyme with 'furrow' any more than /θəˈroʊ/ does. In addition, the recorded pronunciation (in the ogg file) is /θəˈroʊ/, not /ˈθʌroʊ/. Clarification, anyone? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.154.247.115 ( talk) 12:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
The author's name is commonly pronounced "thur-ROW," but his name actually sounds like the word "thorough," with the accent on the first syllable. Upon meeting Thoreau, philosopher and writer Bronson Alcott wrote in his journal the phonetic pronunciation "thorough." And in a letter dated after Thoreau's death, his Aunt Maria wrote to a friend that she had suffered both pronunciations through her life, but that their name is pronounced "thorough."
Hey, about Stevenson's cristicism, you don't know what you are speaking about. If you had read Familiar Studies of Men of Books you wouldn't have written such nonsense. Here what Stevenson actually wrote :"Upon me this pure, narrow, sunnily-ascetic Thoreau had exercised a great charm. I have scarce written ten sentences since I was introduced to him, but his influence might be somewhere detected by a close observer." Now you must amend this Criticism portion because your said only one half of the true. Why don't you add Stevenson to the writers who have been strongly influenced by Thoreau instead of make of him a contemner of Thoreau ? A frenchman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.245.64.49 ( talk) 15:26, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I cannot write nor speak good english. Another thing: the last time I have "fix" something, the next day all had been delete by a fool, because I think there was not references or somrthing. I do no want touch this stuff anymore, because I don't want to waste my time writing something that another will erase soon after. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.245.64.49 ( talk) 11:35, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Considering that John F. Kennedy initiated the Vietnam War and was a paragon of big government, he should be removed from the list of people that Thoreau influenced. In addition, there is no citation for the Kennedy fallacy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dtothediesel ( talk • contribs) 01:08, 21 January 2009 (UTC) -- Dtothediesel ( talk) 01:14, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
I've created a stub for his essay Walking and would welcome improvements. Llamabr ( talk) 17:02, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
My attention has just been directed to this page, with a suggestion that perhaps I "should spend some time improving that article." In looking at it, I see several points at which I suppose I might be able to add something. However, I also noticed that the article makes no reference whatever to the contributions the Kouroo Contexture has been making to Thoreau scholarship for the past two decades, for instance on the website www.kouroo.info. I am therefore writing to inquire whether --were I to attempt to be of assistance-- I would be greeted with welcome, or with hostility.
Here is an example of the sort of contribution I would seek to make. Although it would be generally accurate that Thoreau did praise the work of Wendell Phillips as stated, it is rather more true that he emphatically recommended and praised the writings of Nathaniel Peabody Rogers.
Austin Meredith, Stack of the Artist of Kouroo Project, kouroo@brown.edu —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.148.216.66 ( talk) 18:02, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
The blockquote in the 'Civil disobedience and the Walden years: 1845–1849' section doesn't look like it should, because the image is throwing it off. I tried to fix it just now with an indent, but id didn't do anything. Can someone more experienced fix this please? -- Alexanderaltman ( talk) 00:05, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Edits are too numerous to list. Mentions of Basketball everywhere, "death" listed as "mecca." who knows what else. This ENTIRE page should be reviewed with incredible prejudice. I don't have the time to do it, but I know there are people that spend all day on this site making edits... though they usually spend time writing things that are politically convenient for them. But seriously, the page is in dire need of attention. Oh, and perhaps it would be wise to find what IP did the edits and block them from the site/edits. 204.69.132.129 ( talk) 19:50, 3 November 2009 (UTC)a libertarian
Similar to 'Suggestions for Edits," I'd like to suggest that the 'Critique' page needs not just negative critiques, but positive critiques and objective analysis. This would be much help to college students cramming the night before. It's been forever since I've made/edited a page, so if anyone else really wants to tackle this, go for it. If not, I'll find time to do it soon-ish. Otherwise, let's start finding them sources and critiques!!!
ToroQ3000 ( talk) 08:26, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Henry David Thoreau's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Thoreau":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 06:44, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
One of the things weakening the article is the mixing of contemporary commentary with the historical information. For instance, while it's important that Ghandi read the Bhagavad Gita, and it is important that he influenced Ghandi, those two shouldn't be linked (really shouldn't be linked anyway, since Ghandi was attracted to Thoreau because of his political philosophy and action, instead of his religious interests). The Ghandi part should be in another section, and briefly.
Perhaps a "Thoreau after Death" section, dealing with his post-humous publications, influences and criticisms in the years after his funeral would work best. It could even be divided into periods. Dan 08:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
And I was wondering why Thoreau's tuberculosis was mentioned near the end of the article and not in the early years section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.30.73.55 ( talk) 01:38, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Regarding Thoreau's influence on Gandhi, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_David_Thoreau#Influence seems to be in direct conflict with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience#Usage_of_the_term —Preceding unsigned comment added by Astrostl ( talk • contribs) 21:23, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
I've heard that, while living at Walden, Thoreau often dined elsewhere, or had meals/laundry done by his mother and sister for him. Is this documented somewhere, and if so, where should it go in this article? It does put a bit of the "rugged individualist" myth to rest... -- nae'blis (talk) 14:37, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following quote from the lede and bring it here for discussion:
Is Charles Madison a notable scholar of Thoreau or anarchism or early 19th century American history or philosophy? Is one quote, possibly taken out of context, from a 65 year old essay in an American journal, adequate to argue against the perception that Thoreau was an anarchist? This one quote, especially given the doubtful nature of the source, seems to give undue weight to one opinion. I believe the article is better off without it. --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 15:32, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
A minor typographical error, perhaps. Townships 6 miles by 6 miles, square ... or 36 square miles ... not 26 square miles as shown in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.165.237.19 ( talk) 20:35, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm confused as to why there is a template box for Gandhi at the bottom of the page but none for Thoreau himself; specifically of the type that lists his works, influences, etc. Gulivar ( talk) 13:15, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
The pronunciation guide (thorough) applies only to certain English dialects. Surely a phonetic guide would be more appropriate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.228.66 ( talk) 17:16, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
The small town of Thoreau, New Mexico was named after Henry David Thoreau. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.131.29.246 ( talk) 20:21, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
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Under "Name pronunciation and physical appearance", the neckbeard sentence/paragraph claim that "he insisted many women found attractive" is richly deserving of a page needed because it is a decidedly uncharacteristic claim. 67.169.208.160 ( talk) 21:02, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Done - I agree 16 volumes is too much to expect anyone to read.
Arjayay (
talk)
18:27, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
I think Marcus Porcius Cato should be listed as one of the people he was influenced by. I just finished reading Walden and he cited Cato many times in that book, far more than anybody else that I can recall. 108.217.76.251 ( talk) 07:16, 17 January 2014 (UTC)Patrick Dukemajian
Moments ago, the article included this paragraph:
I have since shortened the Emerson sentence thus:
I have done that because the first o sound in "Thó-row" clearly is not the [ɔː] sound, but instead is the [oʊ] or [o] sound, so that this quote from Emerson can't be used to support a statement that he "confirmed" a /ˈθɔːroʊ/ pronunciation. Compare the sound of o in thor and the sound of o in tho, and we find that they are not the same—just as the first o sound in "go row" does not rhyme with that in "gore oh".
For what its worth, I add that this relatively new method of respelling at Wikipedia sure has its shortcomings in comparison to the International Phonetic Alphabet (standard here for more than a decade). For example, there is no indication whether the th in thə-ROH is voiced or not—whereas this is clear in the IPA. — President Lethe ( talk) 00:12, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
This 13 April 2015 Medium article [3] traces the history of this article claiming that Louisa May Alcott slandered Thoreau's neckbeard. Edit added in 2007 [4] (obvious vandalism), and removed on 18 March 2014 [5]. (In more detail, the original 2007 edit was reverted a few hours after its addition [6], then was readded no doubt by the same editor using their IP, but now adding a false citation [7]. The citation reasonably fooled Bikeable, who removed [8] the language "Thoreau did in fact die a virgin" as indecorous.-- Milowent • has spoken 13:36, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
MansourJE ( talk) 06:09, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Is it pronounced like the French name "Thoreau" or the American way? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:8A8D:FE80:EC91:C9B3:FBF8:B38 ( talk) 20:16, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
Thoreau actually has made some contributions to botany and biology. So why don't we add it in the already-existing biology section?
FDJK001 ( talk) 04:19, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
I am going to start some work on adding content about the Indian Notebooks. I've been a Thoreau enthusiast for 30 years now and yet i only heard of these writings in the last year. It appears that Thoreau learned a lot about native people in the areas where he roamed, and kept separate notebooks on what he learned, as well as collecting quotes and references to other works.
So far my leads are that there is a PhD dissertation called "Tracking the Moccasin Print: A Descriptive Index to Henry David Thoreau's Indian Notebooks and a Study of the Relationship of the Indian Notebooks to Mythmaking in Walden" by Suzanne Dvorak Rose from 1994, and there is a collection of excerpts from the notebooks called "Selections from THE “INDIAN NOTEBOOKS” (1847-1861) OF HENRY D. THOREAU Transcribed, with an Introduction and additional material, by Richard F. Fleck" that is online here.
Who wishes to collaborate and help on this? SageRad ( talk) 14:22, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
I added, in this diff, The Indian Notebooks to the list of Works, and provided the link to the selections by Robert F. Fleck that is available online. SageRad ( talk) 23:58, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm surprised nobody has taken to this discussion yet. I'm still thinking about how to situate the Indian Notebooks, how to explain their significance and their nature. Any discussion here would be appreciated. SageRad ( talk) 20:31, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Henry David Thoreau/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Fairly thorough article, but few inline citations. Introduction, Thoreau on Nature, and Influence could be expanded. Kaldari 15:12, 20 October 2006 (UTC) |
Last edited at 03:24, 9 February 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 14:56, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
The sexuality section was deleted by editor User:Mr._Granger with the note: "seems like a WP:FRINGE view. Are there mainstream sources on Thoreau that discuss this?" Hopefully the following will help.
The history of Thoreau studies on the issue has, not surprisingly, followed the same academic trajectory as with his bisexual/homosexual contemporaries, such as Whitman, Eakins, Sargent, Lincoln, et al. That is, beginning in the 1980s, the issue was, in the teeth of vituperative opposition, forced by gay academics fed up with the dissembling and/or censorship. Gradually mainstream academic acknowledgement that there is/may be a case occurred. After all the hard work of gay scholars, the hole in the dyke wall, so to speak, was opened by "Mainstream" Thoreau biographer the late Walter Harding. He tells the story from his perspective in the Afterforward to the 2nd edition of his 1965 biographyThe Days Of Henry Thoreau (2011), p473-4. (The section didn't appear in the original edition.) He begins by writing: "The most controversial studies about Thoreau in recent years are those concerned with his sexuality. Some, I know, feel that such studies are an intrusion in the privacy of the subject's life". This would be comical if it wasn't so sad. Harding then states that a reviewer took him to task for writing "as if Sigmund Freud had never existed" and confesses "that was done intentionally on my part". You can't make this up. Feeling forced to finally address the issue by "recent studies of homoeroticism in Thoreau" and acknowledging "pioneer" "Jonathan Katz" whose Gay American History I have referenced, he admits "I have been convinced that there is evidence of a strong homoerotic element in Thoreau's personality", but "I should add that to the best of my knowledge no factual evidence of sexual activity [the latter italicised] on Thoreau's part has been uncovered." Phew! It's easy to mock Harding's timidity, but one has to appreciate that until recently your academic career could actually see you marginalised over such an issue. (e.g. see http://www.lambdaliterary.org/features/06/20/john-schuyler-bishop-the-strange-loves-of-henry-david-thoreau/) Harding later presented a paper on the issue to the Thoreau Society where the pigeons flew up, and it was later published in the reputable Journal of Homosexuality, which I had referenced, along with a reference detailing all this (Ivaska) (After flippant deletions, sometimes one wonders why one bothers.) Initially Harding copped some flak, but his paper has been widely cited and I don't think its basic conclusion that Thoreau was homoerotic in his orientation (or however you want to phrase it) has been disputed by any significant scholar in the last two decades. But I'm not going to plow through 100 academic papers to prove that point. Maybe someone else has the energy. Since then has been a slow opening up of the discussion, but naturally, with no consensus on the degree of the 'homoeroticism' - that's where academic discussion is now and, and the degree to which it shaped his thought and writing. In short: the view of his 'homoeroticism' has moved from being non-existent, to being something anomalous, to being something implicit. Thoreau's journals and other writings were also long incomplete in their published form, and now that the full editions are being republished it is also helping reassessment. So of course, his sexuality should be referenced in the article. This has been long winded, but probably necessary given it can be a radioactive issue, and for those unaware of it, the progression of academic thought has been significant. I have restored the entry, while making further hopefully informative and *balanced* improvements to it. The revised entry is as follows:
Thoreau strove to portray himself as an ascetic puritan. However, his sexuality has long been the subject of speculation, including by his contemporaries. He proposed marriage to one woman and was proposed to by another, but there is no evidence to suggest he was physical with anyone. Some scholars suggest that homoerotic sentiments run through his writings, and conclude that he was homosexual. [7] [8] [9] The elegy Sympathy was inspired by the eleven-year-old Edmund Sewell, with whom he hiked for five days in 1839. [10] One scholar has suggested that he wrote the poem to Edmund because he could not bring himself to write it to Edmund's sister, [11] and another that Thoreau's "emotional experiences with women are memorialized under a camouflage of masculine pronouns", [12] but other scholars dismiss this. [7] [13] It has argued that the long paean in Walden to the French-Canadian woodchopper Alek Therien, which includes allusions to Achilles and Patroclus, is an expression of conflicted desire. [14] In some of Thoreau's writing there is the sense of a secret self. [15] In 1840 he writes in his journal: "My friend is the apology for my life. In him are the spaces which my orbit traverses". [16] Thoreau was strongly influenced by the moral reformers of his time, and this may have instilled anxiety and guilt over sexual desire. [17] Engleham ( talk) 18:45, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
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Search for the word 'debts' and you'll find
Quite amazing. After his 'economy' experiment at Walden, did he have debts from that? Did he escape to Walden to hide out from prior debts? What strange scandal lies buried in those woods? :-)
This is like a skipping several years history and just starting a section with "In 1865 Mary Todd Lincoln was forced to hurriedly leave her home in a poor mental condition." Shenme ( talk) 03:36, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Why is it in the intro of his wiki page? He clearly was for limited government, but not for anarchy. Virtually no serious writer is, first of all, and, it is almost impossible to misinterpret Walden or Civil Disobedience as pro anarchy for anyone who has actually read it, and not just his "quotes".
I know this is just wikipedia and isn't any kind of serious scholarly information about anything really, but it just bothers me that something so blatantly untrue is in the opening paragraphs for anyone who has a passing interest in Thoreau to see.
His writing was an influence on MLK and Gandhi to work within the confines of government to make radical change, not to overthrow it or live without it.
This kind of stuff makes me sad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:603:4301:2094:B536:ED67:26E2:8BC4 ( talk) 20:02, 8 October 2016 (UTC)