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I've tweaked the name of the station so it is the same as the way it is printed on the signs on the walls of the station. That is, I've changed it to Grandin (Government Centre). You pick these kinds of things up when you take the LRT.
The Government Centre Transit Centre is not connected to the Grandin LRT Station, and is some distance away. Is this the appropriate location for this information and is there an article on the Government Centre?
Secondarywaltz (
talk)
18:09, 2 June 2013 (UTC)reply
Based on other transit centres in edmonton, this is pretty much the best location you'll get. No Edmonton transit centre has it's on page at the moment (they're all on pages for either the neighbourhood or LRT station they're in or close to) and since the LRT station is technically named "grandin/government centre" this is pretty much the best place you can get. -
Vanstrat (
talk)
16:24, 4 October 2017 (UTC)reply
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The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Withdrawn - Clear that consensus would likely not be achieved. If a move is more warranted later another RM can take place
Vanstrat((🗼))19:14, 31 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Grandin station → Grandin/Government Centre station – Currently the official recognized name for this station is "Grandin/Government Centre station". As far as I can tell the City of Edmonton Website, station/train announcements and current signage refer to it as such (I can list numerous references for this as required). Since all other Edmonton LRT stations with a "/" in their name have already been moved to accommodate, I motion that the same thing be done with "Grandin station". I can see that this was lightly discussed a decade ago at the top of the talk page however I believe the circumstances are now different and a move is warranted.
Vanstrat (
talk) 16:34, 4 October 2017 (UTC) --Relisting.DrStrausstalk 21:05, 11 October 2017 (UTC) --Relisting.Steel1943 (
talk)
14:58, 24 October 2017 (UTC)reply
I believe this to be a pretty straightforward move however I will add references here that show the official name just so I can be satisfied that I have thoroughly explained the proposal
Support I hadn't said anything because I wasn't sure if the Government Centre name applied to just bus transit centre, or the LRT station as well. If you prefer "Centre" over "Center", you should strike the third reference.
117Avenue (
talk)
00:58, 9 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Yeah, I'm unsure why the route signage uses the american english "Center" instead of the Canadian version. I'm assuming it's a typo... It wouldn't be the only error on those route signs. -
Vanstrat (
talk)
01:52, 9 October 2017 (UTC)reply
None of the references you have given are recent or carry much authority. People will always truncate long names but that is not what COMMON NAME means.
Secondarywaltz (
talk)
21:55, 9 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Every article in those google searches is at least 3 to 5 years old. Also, "Alternative names" carries the inference that you believe that "Grandin station" is the official name and the "Government Centre" is a second name. I believe the official name of the station including the "/" is pretty clear from the references provided. Yes, these names are still sometimes shortened (Some people call "South Campus/Fort Edmonton Park station" by "South Campus" because it's easier, or "Kingsway/Royal Alex station" by "Kingsway", etc...). If we were to follow what some (in this case outdated) sources are shortening names to then we would have to change all other stations in Edmonton to remove the "/".
WP:CONSISTENCY would have us ensuring that we include the "Government Centre" in the station name. "Grandin station" will still redirect to this page for anyone looking up the shortened version but we should actually title the page by the official station name. My references above are all more recent and numerous for the
WP:COMMONNAME argument. -
Vanstrat (
talk)
23:36, 9 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Secondarywaltz and
Vanstrat: You are mistaken.
WP:COMMONNAME relies on coverage in third-party reliable sources. The
WP:OFFICIALNAME carries less weight than what the sources use. While some uses of "Grandin station" are a few years old, Google News turns up only two pieces that use any variant of the "Grandin/Government Centre" format, and both are older than many of the sources that use "Grandin station". All of these sources are more recent than the ones using "Grandin/Government Centre":
[3][4][5][6]--
Cúchullaint/
c13:53, 10 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Cuchullain: Only one of those sources is recent (which is definitely important in this case as a lot of changes have been occurring on our network in the past 3 years including updated electronic signage/announcements in stations and on train cars), and as such these are definitely not a good indicator of what people locally are calling the station nowadays. As mentioned by
Secondarywaltz, it is not uncommon in Edmonton for news sources to truncate long station names or only use one of the two sides of the slash. You failed to address my
WP:CONSISTENCY argument which in this case I believe is more important due to the low number of recent news articles. If we were to go by (old) truncated news articles for all our station names in the city, all stations with a slash would need to be changed which would definitely not leave us with a good indicator of what stations here are referred to. -
Vanstrat (
talk)
15:08, 10 October 2017 (UTC)reply
All the sources I linked to came after the apparent name change, which suggests "Grandin station" remains the common name in the sources. At any rate, there's no evidence that the longer version is in wide use.
I don't understand what you're saying as to
WP:CONSISTENCY. Consistency is about being "consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles", in this case Edmonton LRT and Canadian station articles. Both forms are consistent with CANSTATION, but one is more common in the sources. If other stations aren't using their common names, they need to change too.--
Cúchullaint/
c17:20, 10 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Cuchullain: You don't have a source to support your statement that the name change happened before those articles were written. The previous name (at the top of the talk section) was "Grandin (Government Centre)" (of which the article was called "Grandin station" due to
WP:COMMONNAME).
What I am saying is that the name change happened after those articles were written (which locals here will know, I just wish I had taken a picture of the old signs to prove it). Local news didn't pick up the name change because moving the "Government Centre" out of brackets and into the name wasn't newsworthy. The basic point that I'm making is that your news sources are irrelevant as they are outdated... locals are referring to the station by the "Grandin/Government Centre" station regardless of the lack of news coverage.
If name changes of all small local stations on wikipedia was based on news coverage, lots of name changes to local stations would never happen even though locals did change what they were calling it -
Vanstrat (
talk)
17:58, 10 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Reliable, published sources independent of the subject are what matters here. That is what
WP:COMMONNAME and the other
article title criteria are all about. If there are no sources suggesting that "Grandin/Government Centre" has become established in the sources, there's no call for a name change.
The (supposed) name change to "Grandin/Government Centre" was in place by March 2014, as
this article was published then. However, a number of sources published since that time have used "Grandin station", which is an indication that it remains the common name in the sources. And to reiterate, there's no evidence that the longer form is more common. Even Edmonton's website uses "Grandin station" nearly as frequently as the longer form.
[7]--
Cúchullaint/
c18:35, 10 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Cuchullain: My statement is that those sources are only truncating or
abbreviating the name as it's quite large to put in a news article or in a list with other stations, etc... Abbreviating a name to a shorter version that people still recognize to save space and/or keep the flow of the article doesn't make it the
WP:COMMONNAME of the station.
Especially in this circumstance where the news sources using the abbreviations/truncations are old and written arguably close to when the station name change occurred, we should be focusing more on
WP:CONSISTENCY regarding how we list this station and the other stations that contain the slash in their name on the
Edmonton Transit System -
Vanstrat (
talk)
19:20, 10 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Cuchullain, I don't understand why you would expect a little LRT station to have consistent media coverage. The PA system calls the station "Grandin/Government Centre", and signage labels it "Grandin/Government Centre", people are calling it Grandin/Government Centre.
117Avenue (
talk)
03:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC)reply
It does have consistent media coverage (if it didn’t, it’s not notable enough for its own article) and that coverage most commonly calls it Grandin station.—
Cúchullaint/
c03:37, 17 October 2017 (UTC)reply
117Avenue, I'd save your breath. Regardless how how many people travel the station, unless there's an incident warranting a news story there tomorrow and the reporter bothers to publish their article without abbreviating the name, Cuchullain is probably not going to change his mind. -
Vanstrat (
talk)
05:24, 17 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Google News turns up over 20 hits for the station, and even in sources since the name was officially changed in 2014, "Grandin station" is the version most of them use. Few use any variant of the proposed form, so no, I don't think it ought to be changed.--
Cúchullaint/
c14:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC)reply
One usage in a news reference from 2014 is in no way an official indicator of when it occurred. There have been many changes in the network here since then... but now this argument is just going in a circle again so I'll stop there before I continue repeating myself. -
Vanstrat (
talk)
15:42, 17 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Not to keep going in circles, but it's the only evidence I (or anyone else, apparently) could find of the change, and regardless, sources are still using "Grandin station".--
Cúchullaint/
c18:02, 17 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Support per
WP:CONSISTENCY. I really don't find very helpful appeals to common name about an article of a metro station with an average of 7 daily views and side mentions in 2 news articles per year and subsequent nit-picking. If all other articles follow the same pattern, Just Do It. Most potential readers of this article won't encounter the title in the news anyway, but in the "primary source" – the train itself and the map signage, which are universally on the side of the official name.
No such user (
talk)
12:26, 19 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Though I've provided 4 reliable references at the top showing that the station is referred to with the slash by practically every other sign/official thing... one old photo of an old sign means that those are negated? -
Vanstrat((🗼))13:55, 31 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose per
WP:COMMONNAME Even the website for the Alberta Legislature (the Government Centre that the proposed rename refers to) does not consistently use the "Government Centre" version of the station's name. See
https://www.assembly.ab.ca/visitor/maps/GroundsMap.pdf for example. There is no problem pointing out the new official name once in the article, but the article should not be renamed yet, and the named references to the station should use the article title.
Meters (
talk)
18:36, 31 October 2017 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.