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I'm removing the following information because it has been tagged as being unsourced for some time:
If anyone can find sources for these statements, feel free to re-add them. — Angr 18:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm removing the following statement which has been tagged as needing a source for some time:
Again, if anyone can provide a source for this claim, feel free to add it. — An gr 18:15, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
WHOMEVER KEEPS REMOVING THIS YOU HAVE NO CAUSE, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM
This is inappropriate for being on an article. Take your beefs elsewhere. Atcavage 16:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I've found this happening in other Celtic language articles - the argument that because Celtiberian has K where Brythonic and Gaulish have P, therefore the Leabhar Gabhala and/or O'Rahilly must be correct. Someone is putting forward their favourite theories. - Paul S, 20:25 17 March 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul S ( talk • contribs) 20:27, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Gaulish is listed as part of the Brythonic languages...when I thought it was part of its own continental or Gaulish subfamily. If we are to list dead languages, Cornish should be listed in the place of Gaulish as a Brythonic language. I have no references offhand, but I would challenge someone to show me that I am wrong. I, at some point in the future, will get accredited references to back up my position. AnthroGael 03:28, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thecornish language is alive and kicking and is officialy recognised. Any attempt to make it appear as a dead language would be factualy incorrect. Fletch 2002 ( talk) 00:47, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
The original and pure Shelta has no English in it but is a back slang gaelic.
Gaelic words like mac are cam in shelta. Many modern Irish travellers of today travel both Ireland and the UK and now speak a mix cant language. True Shelta is not Cant.
You must change the phrase about shelta being cant as irish traveller cant is a modern corruption of the original tongue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 ( talk) 17:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I've restored some more text deleted by 83.147.180.163 and made a variety of small changes that hopefully restore sense to some sections that through multiple edits and deletions were beginning to sound strange.
I've rephrased the para beginning "Early Modern Irish" to refer to "Early Modern Irish...and its equivalent Classical Gaelic". Hopefully this is sufficiently neutral and acceptable to the pan-Gaelicists. As it was, the fact that the literary language was the same had become a casualty in the nomenclature war. I'm not sure I've restored it with this change, but I think it's better.
The part added by 83.147.180.163 about orthography needs work. Is it saying that the orthography arose simultaneously in Ireland and Scotland in the 8th century? It says "Ireland and Scotland shared the same written form for over [a] thousand years" but is this actually true? Even if it was written in Scotland in the 8th century, hadn't the form changed in Ireland by the 18th century? It's hard to see how the "over [a] thousand years" is arrived at.
Oh yes, and does "but in the early 20th century Irish adopted a new written form" refer to the 1948 spelling reform? Would "mid 20th century" be better?
After a long day's mountainbiking I've gone for just tagging it. :)
☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 09:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC) (probably reclining on a couch by the time you read this)
It's fun sometimes looking through an article's history to see the wide variety of interpretations that can be put on any string of words. I found that this (which I think I wrote)...
Furthermore, due to the peculiar politics of language and national identity, some Irish speakers are offended by the use of the word Gaelic by itself to refer to Irish.
...had the word peculiar removed by some anon IP - (→Nomenclature: insulting "peculiar" removed). Ahem, I'm not sure if I meant it in the general sense "distinguished in nature or character; particular, special", or as "unlike others, singular, unusual, strange, odd", but either way I can't see how it's insulting. However you feel about the word as applied to Irish, you have to admit that, without knowing anything of the history of its use, it does appear odd.
It's no great loss though. ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 02:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
This section is in danger of becoming a "my favourite links" section. While I can see how Highland Clearances are relevant to the position of Scottish Gaelic, I think we should stick to more directly language-related links, otherwise it'll just become unmanageable. ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 06:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Prior to
this edit the first two paragraphs of the Manx section were almost word-for-word identical to text at
www.gov.im/tourism/culture. While I realise there exists the possibility that the Isle of Man government website lifted the text in question from this article, I feel that this is so unlikely as to be not worth considering. The question I have is, have the subsequent edits to the section taken it out of the realm of
WP:COPYVIO or not? I suspect not. Recommended action, anyone?
--
Yumegusa (
talk) 21:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I don't think the edits are enough to make it not a copyvio. Unfortunately, the entire paragraph needs to be rewritten from scratch. — An gr 05:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm doing some cleaning up of the Nomenclature section as it's once again suffering from edit-itis. Many clarifications and prevarications have been added which destroy the flow of the text and make it much harder to read. All of these are unnecessary.
Although Irish and Manx may be referred to as Irish Gaelic and Manx Gaelic (as they are Goidelic or Gaelic languages) the use of the word Gaelic is
usuallyunnecessary because the terms Irish and Manx, when referring to language, only ever refer to these languages, whereas Scots by itself refers to a Germanic language and Scottish can refer to things not at all Gaelic(despite historically referring specifically to things Gaelic). The word Gaelic by itself is sometimes used to refer to Scottish Gaelic and is thussomewhatambiguous, although in this context it is usually pronounced /ˈɡalɪk/ (that is, the same as Gallic), rather than /ˈɡeɪlɪk/.
Text below in bold restored after deletion by 192.122.222.206 with no reason given. If it deserves deletion then so does the following para.
Furthermore, due to the politics of language and national identity, some Irish speakers are offended by the use of the word Gaelic by itself to refer to Irish. citation needed
Similarly, Scottish Gaelic speakers find offensive the use of the obsolete word Erse (from Scots Inglis Eris, "Irish") to refer to their language. citation needed This term was used in Scotland since at least the late 15th century to refer to Gaelic, which had also been called Scottis. citation needed
The names used in languages themselves (Gaeilge in Irish, Gaelg/Gailck in Manx, and Gàidhlig in Scottish Gaelic) are derived from Old Irish Goídelc, which
in itself is from the originally more-or-less derogatory term Gwiddel meaning "pirate, raider" in Old Welshcomes from the Old Welsh Guoidel meaning "pirate, raider".
The Goidels called themselves various names according to their tribal/clan affiliations, but the most general seems to have been the name rendered in Latin as Scoti. This is possibly related to the modern Gaelic term scoth the best, which would be the expected modern form of the Primitive Irish (Gaelic) *scotos (plural *scoti). The change from Scot referring to the people to Scot referring mainly to the country (and then the people of the country) dates from the time the Scottish kingdom(s), previously Pictish, were taken over by the Gaelic Scots.
☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 09:54, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
just one thing l saw this page and wanted to say in Scotland the language is normally 99% of the time pronounced (ɡalɪk) while the irish pronunciation is ɡeɪlɪk. l think this is where the confusion stems from .when someone is referring to ɡeɪlɪk they are mostly always referring to irish,even with modern confusions and some referring to scottish as ɡeɪlɪk now . — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Staringeyes (
talk •
contribs) 10:45, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
The Goidelic languages
, (also sometimes called, particularly in colloquial situations, the Gaelic languages or collectively Gaelic),historically formed a dialect continuum stretching from the south of Ireland, through the Isle of Man, to the north of Scotland. There are three modern Goidelic languages: Irish (Gaeilge), Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig), and Manx (Gaelg).However, until approximately 1700 (and much later among some areas), Irish and Scottish Gaelic had exactly the same literary language, divergence only coming after the serious English inroads from around that date. Manx (through default of evidence) was also part of the same language, though evidence of the use of Literary Gaelic on Man is circumstantial.However, older versions of literary Scottish Gaelic and Irish were similar enough to have been considered dialects of a single language.
The Goidelic branch is also known as Q-Celtic, because Proto-Celtic *kʷ was
originallyretained in this branch (later losing its labialisationandto becomeingplain [k]), as opposed to Brythonic, where *kʷ became [p]. This sound change is also found in Gaulish, so Brythonic and Gaulish are collectively known as "P-Celtic". In Celtiberian *kʷ is also retained, so the term "Q-Celtic" can be equally applied to it as well, although it is not a Goidelic languages, just as Gaulish is not Brythonic. Early Modern Irish was used as a literary language in Ireland until the 17th century, and its equivalent, Classical Gaelic was used as a literary language in Scotland until the 18th century. Later orthographic divergenceis the result of more recent orthographic reforms resultinghas resulted in in standardised pluricentric diasystems. Manx orthography,isbased on English and Welsh,andwas introduced in 1610, andbut was never widely used.All Irish and Scottish persons of a literary background (bards, poets, seanchaidhes, etc.) were banned on pain of death from the Isle of Man in the 1500s, citation needed and so the literary contacts that the Manx obviously existed before this time were severed.
☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 10:34, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
"but sometime between the 3rd century and the 6th century a group of the Irish Celts known to the Romans as Scoti began migrating from Ireland to what is now Scotland"
Reading this sentence it would be very easy to mistakenly assume that "Scoti" refers specifically to the group which migrated to Caledonia and not the Irish Celts in general. Murchadh ( talk) 00:15, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx Gaelic appear to be blurred together ... why?
They are Goidelic Languages ... why blur the terminology together?
Should it not be written as follows,
The term Gaelic has been incorrectly cut-out of Irish Gaelic and Manx Gaelic ... why?
For instance,
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/liosta/
"There are three varieties of Gaelic: Scottish Gaelic, Irish Gaelic, and Manx Gaelic. These are closely related and very similar, but they are not mutually understandable except to speakers who have had the equivalent of at least a couple of days contact with the other variety. (The other three Celtic languages, Welsh, Cornish and Breton, belong to a different branch and are not so closely related to Gaelic.)"
ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! ( talk) 04:40, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Hello Angr.
In English Language texts on Linguistics, the clear terms of Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx Gaelic are used to make up the Goidelic Language group of the Celtic Branch of the Proto Indo-European Language. The terms Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx Gaelic are excepted, precise, linguistic nomenclature ... why use the imprecise short-form terms of just Irish, and just Manx?
ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! ( talk) 10:34, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Hello.
The Celtic Language branch of the Proto Indo-European Language has two sub-branches, the Brythonic Group, and the Goidelic Group. The Brythonic Group contains the Cumbrian (i.e., Cumbric), Welsh, Cornish, and Breton languages. The Goidelic Group contains the Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx Gaelic languages.
The Gauls are separate from the Gaels. The Gaels are composed of the Irish Gaels, Scottish Gaels, and the Manx Gaels, and they speak the Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx Gaelic languages, respectively. This is all accepted Linguistic nomenclature in the English Language texts. Why would one not use its preciseness?
ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! ( talk) 11:29, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Hello Angr.
In English Language texts, the Goidelic Group is enumerated as the Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx Gaelic languages. ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! ( talk) 11:43, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
I have this book,
The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Linguistics uses the terminology,
If this is good enough for the Oxford University Press why don't we use it here at Wikipedia?
ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! ( talk) 03:23, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Hello Thrissel.
The Germanic Language branch sub-divides into,
Similarly, the Goidelic Language sub-divides into,
This terminology exists, and is used by Linguists, however why is it not is used here at Wikipedia?
ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! ( talk) 17:52, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Why does the text of the article neglect to mention that these are Indo-European languages? The info-box does have such an attribution but it ought to be in the text, perhaps with discussion of their relationship to other Indo-European languages. ~Mack2~ ( talk) 13:18, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
I really thought this had been discussed so much that we could just leave it alone now. The reasons why (despite many Americans love of adding the word Gaelic to everything) it is unnecessary:
I have removed the excess Gaelics in the article. Please don't just add them back in without some proper discussion as this has been a contentious issue in this article since at least 2004.
☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 13:02, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
This was once a small expansion on the " dialect continuum" reference in the opening para. Now it has become a hugely bloated digression fest. Information about different orthographies doesn't belong in the lead paragraphs of an article.
Since this is really a discussion of the range and spread of the language I've moved it to the appropriate section and merged it with the text there.
☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 13:41, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Though I can see Akerbeltz's point about not becoming a study in dialectology, showing dialect forms here does actually illustrate the old continuum of language that used to exist so I've corrected and added a little. ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 13:52, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
This paragraph isn't even a complete sentence
As well as the general assumption by the English and Anglicised ruling classes following the Flight of the Earls and disappearance of much of the Gaelic aristocracy that Irish was a language spoken by ignorant peasants. citation needed
Frankly, it is a clumsily-worded, insipid attempt to derogate a people.
I have combined the ideas in it with the preceding paragraph--which was also composed of a single sentence.
-- Patronanejo ( talk) 20:13, 27 November 2012 (UTC) Patronanejo ( talk) 20:12, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
Can't help notice "Wysg" although used in modern Welsh, looks suspiciously like a goidelic word for water? (Which finds it's way into modern English as Whisky). Often in England, river names have a brythonic origin. Is this analagous evidence of a goidelic origin for a river in Wales- a Welsh "River Avon" if you like?
Does this mean that the Welsh really are the Irish who couldn't swim, and that a Brythonic elite displaced a goidelic one? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.100.25.179 ( talk) 23:30, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
It’s frankly depressing to come back this article again and again over the years to find some barrow-pusher or hobby-horse rider has waded in an just done a big dump in the middle of a paragraph. If you can be bothered to take the time to add to an article, PLEASE try to make your addition fit it and not totally break the sense of surrounding sentences.
You may or may not be an island, but your contribution definitely isn’t! Try to make it fit in.
E.g. in an attempted refutation (?) of Ewen Campbell’s theory, user 95.44.233.78 added these sentences:
However,considering that the Gaels originated in Ireland and that Scotland was the land of the Picts, it does seem likely that there was some Irish Gaelic settlement in Scotland, presumably bringing the Gaelic language with them.
Shaneg4015 added to it and KDS4444 chopped a sentence, removing the vital However and suggesting the opposite of the the original contribution. KDS4444 was right that this was WP:OR, but just didn’t remove enough.
☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 05:58, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not Moved Mike Cline ( talk) 08:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
Goidelic languages →
Gaelic languages –
WP:COMMONNAME by a mile. It's asserted in the archived talk page that Goidelic is the "proper" or "scientific" name, which may be true but really isn't important, policy-wise. It's questionable, too, since Gaelic is more common even in scholarly usage (see results below). Finally, "Goidelic" is uncommon even on Wikipedia. All of the subcategories of
Category:Goidelic languages use "Gaelic", and only
one other article has "Goidelic" in its title. --
BDD (
talk) 13:54, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Source | "goidelic languages" | "gaelic languages" |
---|---|---|
8050 | 48,600 | |
Google Books | 1410 | 4370 |
Google Scholar | 175 | 497 |
General and Books searches include a -wikipedia qualifier. As often, some Wikipedia usages have seeped through, such as the top Books result for Goidelic. -- BDD ( talk) 13:54, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Per
WP:COMMONNAME /
WP:PRIMARY and
WP:SMALLDETAILS,
Gaelic language goes to
Scottish Gaelic (mostly only linguists call it it the latter; it's referred to by the Scottish as simply Gaelic), while
Gaelic languages and
Gaelic language family naturally redirect to
Goidelic languages. Disambiguation is carried out at both articles with the {{
Redirect}}
hatnote. —
SMcCandlish ☺
☏
¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:30, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Gealic was the language of the courts and the people up until the reign of the Malcolm III, surnames Caenmor Malcolm III of Scotland. P16, Vol 1. [ Sketches] by David Stewart. scope_creep ( talk) 00:47, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Goidelophone. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. b uidh e 05:17, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Goidelic (Gaelic). Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. b uidh e 05:18, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Goidelic (Gaelic) language. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. b uidh e 05:19, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Gaelic group. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Utopes ( talk / cont) 22:03, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Gaelic groups. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Utopes ( talk / cont) 22:53, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Goidelic (Gaelic) languages. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 June 2#Goidelic (Gaelic) languages until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 10:34, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
I suggest moving the page name to "Gaelic languages" rather than the unheard of (by people without etymological knowledge) "Goidelic". The lead could read: "the Gaelic langauges, also known as Goidelic languages" etc. Gaelicbow Gaelicbow ( talk) 13:00, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
Do we have any references for ( falsifiable) evidence for the current hierarchy of Goidelic languages? The Book of Invasions, according to its Wikipedia page, is now considered mythology by scholars. Since we do not have archaeological or genetic evidence of invasions of Britain by Irish during the early Middle Ages, we cannot claim or assume such invasions occurred.
We do have evidence that Goidelic descends from the Q-Celtic branch of the Indo-European language tree. Using that evidence and the Law of Parsimony the tree should look more like this:
Indo-European => (Q-)Celtic => Goidelic =>
• Old Irish => Middle Irish => Modern Irish • Manx • Scottish Gaelic
Of course, this tree refers to the spoken languages. The orthography of Goidelic languages will have a differently formatted tree should be addressed separately. Gortaleen ( talk) 14:38, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
MIDDLE Irish. Find a source that refutes McCone or Stifter, otherwise end of. Akerbeltz ( talk) 17:05, 17 August 2023 (UTC)