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It seems the search "Go" and "GO" direct users to different entries in the encyclopedia causing confusion. I attempted to fix the problem by redirecting them together but I lack the skill. Also it seems less than consensus to have those entries refer staight to a disambugation page rather than the most common usage of the term "outside of the verb usage "to go". see comments at village pump
Go is right now listed in both Board games and Abstract strategy games. Everyone can find Go in both categories. There is no need for it to be listed twice in both categories. 2005 01:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I seeked a third-party judgement from a senior person who have more expertise in Categorization Policy. The result is it's good to add the Go article to all the related categories, including Category:Board games and Category:Abstract strategy games and Category:Go, which is the same as what others (eg Monopoly (game)) do.
For details of this judgement, see: Wikipedia_talk:Categorization#Categorization:_.22Board_game.22_and_.22Abstract_strategy_game.22.
The following is the previous argument of each party on the interpretation of the "Categorization Policy" (Thanks to
Falcorian for the initial copy):
--
Wai Wai (
talk)
07:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Previous argument about the interpretation of the "Categorization Policy" | |
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Go category
I wonder if we should add the main category, in addition to sub-category. A few checks don't get me anywhere. Different pages do differently. Personally I think it's beneficial to add the article to the main category too since someone who search for board games may not notice abstract strategy games. It may miss that article in this regard. After all, it's no hurt to provide multiple ways to access to the same article. Some sorting/category trees do the same, placing the same link/resource in different possible categories. -- User:Wai Wai
Individual board games and category of board game
Don't get me wrong. I'm not criticising or blaming you. The reasons why I spend time on listing all these is to encourage you in revisting the WHOLE policy before making your judgement again. I have attempted to ask you to revisit, but you may be in a hurry, you probably just read the first introductory statement or so and perform the action. I guess you haven't read the WHOLE article once, have you? If negative, it would be great if you read the whole policy of Wikipedia:Categorization CAREFULLY (not just the sub-topic which I mention previously). As a reminder, judgement should be made based on the reasons given in the policy, but not one's own. Next time, if similar things appear, please back up your decision with citation of specific statements of the policy, not just the policy name because we have arguments within the policy. As to "board games" VS "abstract strategy games", the reasons are simple. If you care to read Falcorian's explanation, you may understand why. It is simply due to the following policy:
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Normally discussions like this are held on Village pump to ensure a consistent result across related articles. Stephen B Streater 07:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
What is roughly the average margin of victory (difference in point's between white and black) and how often roughly are Komi point's a decieseve factor in games between the strongest players. I think it might be a good idea to put this in the articile.
There is nothing wrong, especially among players of similar strength, with winning by a wide margin -- however it is rude to continue playing when you are LOSING by a wide margin, especially in casual play against a stronger player, or when playing with a pofessional who is playing several games at once. Margins of victory do not seem to me significant to include in the article, because many games are won by resignation, and the margin is never known. However, it is interesting that over the years, komi keep increasing.
When one player is significantly stronger than the other, say more than six stones, the stronger player may not play all out, and may permit a narrow margin of victory, especially if the opponent has played well. However, I have on occasion played weak opponents who did not understand the importance of deferring to the experience of a stronger player, and found it repugnant to take a handicap. In this circumstance, I do not hesitate to administer a lesson by killing everything on the board. kibi 02:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
As far as the description for picking up a stone goes, as I understand it the proper method invloves first picking up a stone between the middle finger and thumb...and then you slide the index finger under the stone as you place it on the board. this is what creates a real click sound instead of just a loose rattle or thump. I think the misperception that you just pick the stone up with the index and middle fingers derives from westerners primarily. I can try to source my claim if anyone is interested. -VanTucky
Okay, I see no references on this page or the go equipment page for the stated technique of play. Also, it seems that everyone who advocates the alternative to my suggestion is of western origin, and as such has only secondary cultural experience with the proper technique (as well as I). Anyone who has actually lived in a country where Go is native, please chime in. or try and find a reference for the technique you suggest, instead of just posting to refute my point of view baselessly. I'm trying to have a conversation towards improving the accuracy of the article, not listening to people's witty remarks. thanks.
Okay, this is from the Nihon Kiin site that is linked. "First, take a stone from the bowl with your thumb and index (or middle) finger, transfer it to between the index and middle fingers, then place it on the board."
Guess I was right after all. VanTucky 23:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
No, the Nihon Kiin site is not correct. I have played thousands of games with Asian players for many years. I have played at the Nihon Kiin and the Hanguk Kiwon. I have been instructed by professionals from Japan, China and Korea. I assure you that as Charles says above, this is not the "traditional". In fact it is clunky and awkward to transfer the stone in that way, and much easier to simply grip it between the two fingers in the first place.
kibi 14:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, then I guess it was a translation error on the Nihon Kiin site. Even though personally I've found that the method I described gets less dropped stones and more acoustic pleasure, I'll not revert the article. especially because it seems that the Nihon site was the only online reference advocating the alternative. thanks for the input. VanTucky 21:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC) I learned weiqi growing up in China.
We were taught to hold the stone between the index and the middle finger
Why are English capitalization rules not followed? Why is go written Go?. I mean, look at chess or checkers articles. Shouldn't it have to be arranged? Or at least explained! -- 83.43.172.167 18:29, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Ricky, you are right! "Go" the game should NOT be capitalized. The usual guideline as I understand it is, if it's copyrighted, it's a proper noun; if not, it's a "common name". However, it doesn't say so in the definition here, and I don't have a source for this gem of wisdom . . . but I'm going to look for one!
Making it "less confusing" to the reader is not a compelling argument. One hopes the average reader can tell the difference between a noun and a verb. One also notes that "bridge", another game whose name resembles a common English word, is not capitalized, not here in Wikipedia, and not on the American Contract Bridge League site. Go seems to create more confusion for some reason -- the American Go Association does not capitalize it, but the British Go Association does; and two prominent sites, Sensei's Library and gobase, DO capitalize it. At one point I actually de-capitalized go in the main article here, but it was turning into a "revert" standoff with someone who told me it wasn't important -- although it seemed important enough to them to keep reverting it. . . . I feel it IS important that go is more like chess than, say, Trivial Pursuit! But I didn't feel like fighting the battle alone.
kibi 16:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
In the FA section I see that the capitalization issue is one reason this article lost FA status. So can we now fix this please? If no one else does, I will soon, unless someone else wants to argue about it. And while I'm at it, the other go-related pages have the same problem, let's fix them too. kibi 15:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
In other places, I've seen it either capitalized, placed in quotes, or both. I assumed this was done, not only to distinguish it from the English verb, but to suggest the term had been transliterated from another language. Mr. Ing tried to solve the problem by changing the spelling to “goe,” but this never caught on in the United States. SlowJog 18:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
This article has way too many external links. I request editors knowledgable to the subject to review and retain only high quality external links. — Ambuj Saxena ( talk) 14:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
It's funny to use Chess vs. Go to compare western to eastern strategy. In all aspects Chess is actually a Eastern game, since it is probably derived from xiangqi (China) and/or Chaturanga (India). How come a comparison of Go and Chess be a parallel to western versus eastern strategic thinking? Chess trace it's history to eastern games, and, by extension, to eastern strategic thinking too. Perhaps this part of the article could be refined or changed. Regards Loudenvier 18:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
It might actually be a bit more complicated than that since one might argue that one of the theories of the origins of xiangqi was that a general, Han Xin was preparing for an upcoming battle thus he developed xiangqi to hone his skills in battle which in go terms would be local situations. I think the whole part of the eastern vs western philosophy thing is to emphasize how the games represents a bit of the culture that plays that game. As it is with psychology, one would say Eastern cultures are mostly collectivist cultures but that doesn't exclude some individualism. The analogy is perhaps focusing on the minor status of whole board thinking in the West. Strategy is the general idea/direction one wants to achieve a goal with, tactics are the tools that is used to achieve this strategy or goal thus chess would probably be a tactical game since it mostly mirrors a battle rather than a campaign. Go is more of a mix of battles and campaigns but a greater emphasis on the whole thus it can argueably be both a strategical and tactical game with a greater emphasis on strategy. EvilSai
I feel that this article will need to go through a Featured article review. I am concerned that this article is terribly low on references, and overdoes external links. If I don't see any progress (or an assurance) made in a couple of days, I would be recommending this article for FAR. — Ambuj Saxena ( talk) 18:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
This probably covers the Team Go reference too actually. Pair Go is a subset of Rengo. I believe Rengo doesn't specifically dictate two players per team, but allows higher numbers as well. Can anyone confirm this for me? It certainly seems to me that Rengo should be mentioned in preference to Pair Go (and possibly annihilates the Team Go section). I am also slightly sceptical about Pair Go being first mentioned as a means of promoting Go and secondly as a means of increasing female participation. However I imagine this reflects the referenced preferences. ZincBelief
This article has been listed on Featured Article Review due to the various concerns listed above:
I have heard conflicting information on amateur ranks. The article says that 7d and 8d amateur ranks are possible, but I have also heard that 6d is the highest rank recognized for amateur players. Also, while the article says it's possible, I have never heard of a pro having a 10-dan rank. Could someone with more info on how Japan, Korea, and China deal with ranks speak up? (Note, I'm not talking about the US Go rating system, which gives numerical ratings that look like kyu and dan ranks, but are only presented as numerical ratings as opposed to ranks). -- Zippy 19:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
In China, for example, they'll have amateur players near pro rank as "probation" professionals, where there are given 1 dan pro diplomas temporarily until they prove that they have earned the dimploma. — Canbek - 张 - Esen 02:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I believe Amateur Dan rankings were created only after WW2 in Japan, and were fairly slow to catch on in Korea and China (Anyone know if this is correct?) When a professional plays an Amateur in Japan, the Professional's rank is given, but the Amateur's strength is noted only in how many handicap stones he received (John Smith, 2 stones)
In regards to "The Name 'Go'," who are "some Chinese people," and why do we care? This seems like a prime example of weasel words. In fact, if you look at the weasel words page, it is in fact the first example.
In fact, I do not see the point of this bit at all. Lots of things have different names in a foreign language than in their nation of origin. Go seems entirely unexceptional in this regard. - Stellmach 17:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
You are both right and wrong about the presence of "weasel words" in that section. It is a weasel word, but any active participant in the international Go community knows about the popular debate over which language is proper to use for Go lexicography. So while those are weasel words, they are necessary to the article because they address a very important issue relating to Go i.e. what to call it. The very nature of the debate as an oral one without acutal text sources to speak of means that it is unable to be cited. In other words, get over it. Rules were made to be broken, and nothing in life is consistent except death and taxes. VanTucky 19:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not saying that it doesn't need clean-up for proper NV and wiki format, but Stellmach was suggesting that the mention of a lexicographical debate in Go was totally unecessary altogether. VanTucky 21:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I totally agree Stellmach. It seems the inappropriate parts have been removed already, so all's well that ends well. VanTucky 21:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I have made two list pages to house Go Servers and Go Software external links. I have also removed the video of the London Open, I am not sure why it was there in the first place. There was also a link to a story in Go Learning which I have removed. As I am not an experienced wikipedian I would appreciate somebody tidying up this butchery, I only did it because nobody else looked like they could be bothered too. -ZincBelief
Is it really accurate to cite Go as the Deepest Game based on the span of the ELO ratings. Unless every known game uses an ELO rating I don't see that we can verify this. Which games currently have ELO ratings at the moment? -ZincBelief
I'm very comfortable with this description. ELO is a nice proof of the depth, but all you reall need is a little common sense. Considering the size of the board; the additive nature of the game (more complex as each stone is added); and the fact that 99.999% of all moves are possible at any time, unless you can suggest a specific rival game, let's leave it at "the Deepest". kibi 14:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes the claim is undoubtably true, but there is a problem with that citation, which, lets remember, is ELO specific. It links to another page in wikipedia which, when it comes down to it, states that the ELO range is wider for Go than Chess. I would prefer a higher quality citation. Surely somebody needs to put down some facts and figures with regards to ELO ranges for other games. I can find Chess, Xianqi, Tantrix and Scrabble ELO ranges which are all smaller. Nowhere can I find the same for Othello, Amazons, Poker, Bridge or whatever. If you want to bring complexity into an argument an citation can and should be provided ;-) For me it's just not a FA Class wording right now. -ZincBelief
I want to return to this point. There are two instances Go is generally considered the most complex game in the world (by whom?) and Go is deep, as playing against any stronger player will demonstrate (depth of the game as established by ELO ranking in Go). (that's totally vapid). The first quote about complexity cites a page as reference, which is listed under articles without sources, specifically Go_ranks_and_ratings. Firstly, to link to an article without sources as a reference seems to me to be folly. Secondly, neither of these are using encyclopedic language. They are blatant opinions. Why should we not consider Shogi the deepest game, or Chess the deepest game, or Xianqi. If there are reasons and references lets present them. Otherwise the article is just not FA quality. Personally I am a little sceptical about the validity/robustness of Ales Cieply's ProGor ELO, but if we take it at face value, then one could at least put down a range of ELO ratings for the main strategy games to illustrate the argument. All I'm asking for is some evidence. Perhaps [ [1]] to start with? No evidence, no NPOV. Isn't that the standard we have on wikipedia? -ZincBelief
The article discribes the rank of computers here as 8-10k. Which is true, al be it a bit on the high side if you ask me, but the explanation of kyu and dan level is lower in the article. If anybody sees a way to solve this problem... HichamVanborm 17:17, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Go players (I do not know a published citation for this) sometimes say, "go is more sophisticated/comlex/better than chess, because computers can play chess well, but not go." The difference in strength (measured statistically) is vivid, but I wish to remind people that Chess was very involved in the development of Artificial Intelligence from the very beginning of electonic computing. John von Neuman built a chess computer, for example; a list mentioning Claude Shannon and Ken Thompson is at [2]
Investment in machine Go started much later. In the 1950's, scientists in Japan were busy rebuilding their country.
-- Peter H. St.John, M.S. 00:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Even though Go is experiencing a bit of a resurgence, I'm still surprised when I stumble upon acquaintences who know how to play. In other words, I suspect that for most people, finding someone to teach them Go may vary from extremely difficult to virtually impossible, though they still may be able to locate others who have a mutual interest in learning the game.
I have seen a couple of different techniques that seem to be fairly effective at teaching someone the rudiments of Go, and in many circumstances they don't really require much feedback from the instructor once the student is set on the right path. It might be worth having a section in the Go page or a related page that discusses some of these (like First to Capture).
What exactly is the merit of this section? With the recent addition of one tournament in the USA uses Fischer Time, it seems to be getting increasingly niche. What is wrong with simply stating that, like most other mind games, Go competitions are played with a clock. To be brash, it seems overly long for such a trite sideline.-- ZincBelief 15:18, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I would like to rewrite the time control section as follows
Like many other games, a game of Go may be timed using a game clock. Game clocks are often used in tournaments so that all players finish in a timely way and the next round can be paired on time. Players may also use game clocks for casual play, for instance if playing an opponent who is known to play slowly. There are two widely used methods that are associated with Go.
Standard Byo-Yomi: After the main time is depleted, a player has a certain number of time periods (typically around thirty seconds). After each move, the number of time periods that the player took (possibly zero) is subtracted. For example, if a player has three thirty-second time periods and takes thirty or more (but less than sixty) seconds to make a move, he loses one time period. With 60-89 seconds, he loses two time periods, and so on. If, however, he takes less than thirty seconds, the timer simply resets without subtracting any periods. Using up the last period means that the player has lost on time.
Canadian Byo-Yomi: After using all of his/her main time, a player must make a certain number of moves within a certain period of time — for example, twenty moves within five minutes. Typically, players stop the clock, and the player in overtime sets his/her clock for the desired interval, counts out the required number of stones and sets the remaining stones out of reach, so as not to become confused. If twenty moves are made in time, the timer is reset to five minutes again. If the time period expires without the required number of stones having been played, then the player has lost on time.
Further details on this subject can be found at time control , The Origins of Canadian Byo-Yomi (and maybe a link to a BGA rules page too. ) -- ZincBelief 11:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
If I don't see any objections I will hack down what I see as an overly long Time control article down to a form as shown above on the 27th of November. -- ZincBelief 15:16, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, here is one set of objections. Go is different from other games in ways that make time controls work differently, so a section devoted to them does not seem out of place. To give one obvious example, how would "penalty points" work in chess? Were you planning to cut that section entirely? True, penalty points are rarely used, but they are a valid option -- for this game only, among the great strategic games. Canadian byo-yomi would also be difficult to enforce in chess -- a referee would have to count the moves, whereas in go, we just count out the right number of playing pieces. Another unique aspect is that at the end of the game, many opportunities often exist for players to create mischief, playing inside of live groups, making ataris, forcing the opponent to respond in order to use up time on the clock if the opponent is running short and try to win on time. That's why most chess games are SD and most go games are not. In fact I may have to ADD something to the time control section about that . . . :>} I also see that here is no mention of Candian style OT in the time control section, have to do something about that. kibi 19:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Well the first thing that strikes me is the length of this section, compare to History or Culture, it is enormous. When you read an article about Go in an encyclopedia, do you really want a detailed lesson on the time controls that could be used in a Go Tournament? Personally I don't want something so long. The other points, Chess gave birth to Fischer time of course ;-) In Chess there was also a system where an additional 30 minutes was added on once you passed 45 moves - so perhaps something like overtime there. For bughouse chess a common time penalty in my school was to take off a pawn (points penalty). So I don't think there is really such a wild gulf, between the two. However I don't want to erase these and other sections, I just want to put them somewhere more appropriate. All that material can be moved into the time control article, which is overly chesscentric at the moment. This whole thing is a terribly overblown section on tournament rules, it is not pure Go. I want to purify the article by summarising the essential information. Other opinions?-- ZincBelief 20:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Zinc, I see your point. perhaps the go article can make do with a statement somwhere - "Nature of the game" section? -- that in tournament play, unique feature of go make some special time control options available, and then point to an expanded time control section. But I don't se a ned for a special "Go time control" section -- I'd rather see the special go options discussed in the main time control article. kibi 17:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I have started Wikipedia:WikiProject Go, not before time. Charles Matthews 16:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Tell me, for these infoboxes inserted into gaming articles, what basis is being used to determine things like "rule complexity" and "strategy depth"? Is it purely subjective? In any case, I for one would like to see a category page related to this so that games can be cross reference via their complexity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.95.3.109 ( talk • contribs) 05:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
What about adding "pattern recognition" to "Skills" ? SlowJog 03:46, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
the lead paragraph was practically unreadable owing to the parade of parenthetical remarks and appositives needed to introduce the name of the game in so many other languages. obviously the article does need a discussion of these names, and it has it -- the section "origin of the name". might I suggest leaving these to this section, where it is clearly appropriate to list off the name of the game in every single language that has a word for it? in english, it's "go" and that's sufficient for the first sentence. there's no need to try to cram them all into the first sentence, and look how much more easily that sentence flows without a whole bunch of words from other languages transcribed and translated inline, all before we even say it's a board game!
remember, this is the english wikipedia, and "go" is the predominant english word for the game. the discussion under "origin of the name" is more than sufficient. please let's try to keep that first sentence short and to the point, and remember that this article makes it very, very clear where the game originated and where it's most popular today. — ptk✰ fgs 07:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I am beginning to believe a sub article could be written on the name alone.-- ZincBelief 11:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't pass or fail articles, but if I did I'd fail this one as it stands. The article is just too listy and whole sections remain uncited. LuciferMorgan 03:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
GA ON HOLD for seven days for these reasons: entire sections/paras have no or too few refs. The huge one on Japanese has only one. Refs are not in a consistent format--use cite php/web. Many sections have few wikilinks. All the citation needed tags need valid refs. Refs go immediately after punctuation with no space between them, not in the middle of a sentence. Rlevse 23:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
GA failed: While there has been much done, there are still SEVEN "citation needed" tags, several refs appearing before punctuation, and refs are still in inconsistent format. Resubmit for GA when this is fixed. Rlevse 15:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
This has been renominated, but the nominator forgot to add in the tag -- ZincBelief 20:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I apologise if this point seems overly pedantic. The passage opens with It is commonly said that no Go game has ever been played twice. Calculations suggest this may be true: . Whilst calculations may suggest this to be true, we can see in actualy play evidence that this claim is false. I have had several opponents resign in a huff on move 2, either because I played tengen, or a 7-7 opening move. There are also instances of people using the copycat cheating technique online. We can also theorise that mistakes in lines such as the Nadare or Taisha will create situations were an early resignation occurs frequently enough for a game to have been replicated.-- ZincBelief 14:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Um, not that it should matter, but you are obviously not a go player zincbelief. it IS commonly used as an anecdote by go players that no game has been played twice. in fact, I've yet to hear someone explain the game to a novice without proudly reciting it. True, in the article it is without a doubt "weasel words", but that doesnt make it a lie, weasel words are by definition unquatifiable. so what evidence for the contrary do you provide? I doubt there are ANY studies of the culture of contemporary go that provide evidence about common statements by players. either for or against. again, its true but unprovable, the areguement is whether it still belongs in the article, not about the truth/falsehood of the statement. that is irrelevent. VanTucky 19:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
well, youre right about it feeling bloated. maybe some of this can be moved into the ancillary pages. but the info about the math of go and its unique qualities as a game are absolutely essential, either to the primary article or a culture of go article, because it is one of the big reasons for the popularity of an obscure asian game. VanTucky 20:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, can we all agree that the following statement is true and should be included in the article: "Numerical estimates suggest that no Go game has ever been the same." I am including it in the article now, please post any problems you have with it. --– sampi ( talk• contrib• email) 19:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Why are we so preoccupied with the question of whether a game has been played twice? This is far from the most significant fact about the complexity of the game. How games games have been played in the game's 2000 year history? Even if 100,000,000 players played 100 games every year (and that's surely a generous estimate) there have only been a few trillion games; falls a few hundred zeroes short of the total possible number of games. I have never used this fact to convey the awesome complexity of go. I'm more likely to point out that there are many more possible games than there are sub-atomic particles in the known universe.
kibi 17:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Okay, to simplify the debate, the only question that should be considered in its inclusion (rather than how popluar it is to say so etc.) is whether the statement is VERIFIABLE. that is the foremost criteria for wiki material. Its a simple yes or no question. It seems the answer is that there is no good bibliographic source on the subject, so under the wiki rules we should delete it.
If you want to debate about the popularity of saying that to impress upon newbs the coolness of Go, I have to say all those who say it's false just because YOU never hear people say it are fools. First of all, how can you say its unpopular? Do you travel to clubs all over the world asking people whether they think it's true? obviously not, b/c in my club and in the surrounding region people say it all the time. Secondly, whether or not it's commonly spoken of is completely irrelavant to the veracity of the statement. VanTucky 21:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Only Japanese traditional equipment is described. Go equipment used by other cultures should also be included. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.97.226.120 ( talk) 20:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC).
Go Stones are flat in their country of origin, China, aren't they?
the most widely used stones are the biconvex japanese style ones, which have been used for hundreds of years. but yes, in china the stones are single convex (i.e. flat on one side). This is all addressed in the main "go equipment" article. VanTucky 06:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a request for a reference on this, which I find rather tiresome because it's very easy to prove. Take two objects the same size, paint one black, paint one white, the darker one always looks bigger. Can anyone find a cite for it, I'm damned if I can. You can try it out in Paint or some other software tool. Do we really need the one about the goban grid being non square? That seems too trivial to demand a cite. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ZincBelief ( talk • contribs) 11:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC).
both of these are, I think, not necessarry to cite because they are both simply empirically true. minus the show-offy vocab, it means that anyone can just measure/look at the stones or the board and know that its true. they are verifiable, which is the inclusion criteria that supersedes citation I think. VanTucky 17:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
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