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I heard Frank Sinatra testified before Senate (Congress?) that rock and blues music are "lewd" and "immoral". Can anyone confirm or refute this? I don't know if this has anything to do with PMRC tho'. - Joe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.51.22.212 ( talk) 15:59, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
It has alot of information, but thats just fine. It's a real feature article, and almost everybody will find what interests them here. Infact, it should be expanded. Somebody asked here about his vocal range, someone else might be interested in his political views. Anyway, the article isn't to long, it's an example for a normal-sized article for its theme. M.V.E.i. 21:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
It's quite long compared to say McCartney, Beethoven or Elvis...Could we move the bio to Life of Frank Sinatra, leaving a shortened versh? I've already created Frank Sinatra Filmography, List of Frank Sinatra's awards and accolades and Frank Sinatra's recorded legacy for similar reasons. Gareth E Kegg 18:38, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Sintra lived a lot longer than Elvis did, and rather longer than Paul has so far, and there is a lot more info available from living sources about Frank than there is about Beethoven, I daresay. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Your proposal is a pain in the ass! Stop comparing Frank to McCartney or such jerkheads! -- Shifty86 11:48, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Why no mention of his painting and artwork? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
89.240.132.98 (
talk)
17:05, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
another thing, i put in the article that he is a member of Alpha Phi Delta fraternity which he is a part of because I am in that same fraternity so I added it in because it's another piece of information about him.
I couldnt figure out how to do an edit, but the piece states that Frank was less popular as a singer than Bob Crosby. I think the writer meant Bing Crosby. Can someone with edit privileges please oblige. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.83.146.244 ( talk) 03:28, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
There should be at least a request for an image. 194.79.44.109 10:18, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I thought I read somewhere that Frank's favorite song to sing was "Summer Wind." Does anyone know a reference for that? -- cda 02:11, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I have just added a note to the Palumbos article and one the newer article on Frank Palumbo looking for some sources. Palumbo, a local celebrity in Philly, was a prominent club owner and very popular with a number of groups for his various philanthropic efforts. He also had powerful friends in local politics and entertainment, including controversial mayor Frank Rizzo and Sinatra. Mob tie allegations and an apparently fixed fight (Jake LaMotta-Billy Fox) haunted his life and tied prominantly to Sinatra (the two were close and were reps for Lamotte and Fox).
However, I'm having trouble finding reliable sources for anything including the words "Palumbo" and "mob", "Mafia", "mothers and fathers in association", etc. Since I'm sure allegations re Sinatra have been through the ringer here, does anyone have anything that might be of use in the Palumbo dyad? Mdbrownmsw 12:56, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
May 14, 1998, was a Thursday. The obits say he died Thursday. The article says it occurred at 10:50 pm, which means Thursday, not past midnight into Friday. It's hard telling where the May 15 stuff is coming from, but it appears to be incorrect. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I updated the page to illustrate that sintra not only lost the role of Sky Masterson to Brando, but also that of Terry Malloy. The IMDb entry for On the Waterfront staes in the trivia section that Sinatra was offered the part after Brando turned it down, yet Sam Spiegal was hell bent on getting Brando. After losing the 2nd part to Brando it did in fact cause a rivalry between the two that only increased as they advanced in years. Sinatra even used to call Brando 'Mumbles'. I feel that this is a significant development in SInatra's career to warrant inclusion. Please reconsider. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.47.222 ( talk) 20:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
In 1954 Sinatra was offered the part of Terry Malloy in On The Waterfront after Marlon Brando had turned it down. Brando later U-turned on his decision leaving Sinatra out of the frame. The following year Sinatra missed out on the role of Sky Masterson, in the hugely popular and successful Guys and Dolls. Losing the part was not made any easier with the fact that Brando had again 'stole his thunder'. Sinatra played the second male lead Nathan Detroit. It was the beginning of a lifelong feud between the two stars which also made for a tense shoot. Despite the rivalry the movie became the highest grossing film of 1955. Also in 1955, Sinatra's first 12" LP In the Wee Small Hours, his second collaboration with Nelson Riddle, was released.
I appreciate the amount of work that went into this article and the accompanying biography expansion. It was a lot of work. However, I do have some concerns regarding how much this article and the "Life of" article are duplications of one another. I don't have a strong opinion on which article needs the greater work, but one or the other needs to be condensed and rewritten with an eye toward making the material more unique. Since this is about Sinatra in general, I would suggest that the personal life material be pared and the career material remain here. The article is also in need of improved referencing. There are a lot of facts, figures and quotes included with no reference whatsoever, although it's obvious that material for referencing is available given the bibliography and further reading sections. Another issue concerns the puffery and use of weasel word descriptions and peacockery. Use of language such as "gave an acclaimed performance," etc. aren't encyclopedic and violate WP:NPOV, WP:Peacock and WP:Weasel. I started working on some of this, but frankly, it's overwhelming. Hopefully, contributors will jump in and work on this. On the plus side, it's a lot cleaner than the Life of Frank Sinatra page. Wildhartlivie ( talk) 00:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
How can you put an article up for GA when it has "This article needs additional citations for verification" at the top? Sorry, but's a waste of time.-- andreasegde ( talk) 16:02, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Per the above and the quick-fail criteria, I am quick-failing this article's GA nomination. When the issue is fixed, please nominate the article again. Thanks, Kakofonous ( talk) 20:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Under Frank's photograph I think "'ol two eyes" should be "'ol blue eyes."
72.24.28.73 ( talk) 22:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC) 03/03/08
Yes, I think you are correct. But it should be " ol' blue eyes," with the apostrophe in the place of the "d." There is no letter replaced befor the "o." DJMsings ( talk) 17:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Is it possible not to mention the famous portrait by Gay Talese ? It surely is a fine piece of journalism, and a big document on Sinatra. Isn't it ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.247.115.24 ( talk) 15:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
This article needs a discography. There are so many "compilations," "collections," and "best-ofs," that it is hard to know what was originally released by the artist and what wasn't. This is of particular import to Mr. Sinatra, since he is lauded as having made his albums works of art as a whole, because of the way that the songs fit together and flow. I would really like to see at least a list of the albums he released with publication information, and somehow a way to know whether the album as a whole was created by Mr. Sinatra, or thrown together for remarketing by a record company. DJMsings ( talk) 17:14, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Lots of detail, but after reading through the article, I still don't have the answer I came here for in the first place: What the heck was the big deal with this guy? Why was he so famous and popular? I've heard him sing, I've seen him act; he's pretty good, but nothing all that special. I've never been able to figure out why all the adulation, the almost religious ferver people have about the guy. The only clue I found here is that it started as a bobby-soxer thing (and really, who knows how bobby-soxers think). Seriously, I would love to see maybe a short paragraph or something explaining just what all the fuss was about, what it was about him that people adored and continue to adore so much. Get someone who's a real fan to write it or something. 24.16.111.20 ( talk) 08:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
There must be plenty of quotes that can sum up Sinatra. How about this one:
"Sinatra — this is both his gift and, on occasion, his downfall — is always Sinatra. Beyond his technical prowess as a jazz-influenced pop singer, building on the innovations of Louis Armstrong, Bing Crosby and Billie Holiday, there is the sheer force of conviction, feeling, the weight of personal history in his voice. In this, only Holiday is his rival — perhaps even his better. Both exemplify what people in my generation like to flatter ourselves is unique to rock 'n' roll and its offshoots: the immediacy, the idiosyncrasy, the genuineness of expression. Sinatra is the century's musical equipoise, the pivot between the carefully crafted pop of its beginning and the looser, fiercer sounds of its end." Sourced from [1] Rikstar 409 11:24, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
There is no mention in the main article or his personal reltionship article about his arreest in 1938 on charges of adultery and seduction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.100.104.17 ( talk) 18:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
The whole layout of this article is confusing and contradictory. The history of his works is under "biography" while his personal life gets a three-sentence mention in a separate section. A clearer split needs to be made between the Life/Works aspects of this article. Or, if the catch-all "biography" format is to be maintained, it needs serious cleanup. ˉˉ anetode ╦╩ 23:02, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm a little uncomfortable that we're using the Kelley bio as a source of factual biographical info. Kelly's an author of trash bios that are the book-bound equivalent of supermarket tabloids, and every single thing she's published has been lambasted, by her subjects, by the media, by her peers, as being full of lies. Seriously, every book.
I think using it as a reference--particularly for potentially controversial claims like mob association--is damaging to the credibility of our article. Surely if there is truth to these things, we can find references in the more reputable biographies. The fact that her bio is even mentioned in the article is embarrassing. Ford MF ( talk) 21:35, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
This article hardly mentions his acting career. Surely, we should have something about that ? -- Beardo ( talk) 02:27, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
...especially to Britney Spears. I could be wrong, but I removed it anyhow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.44.16.214 ( talk) 22:54, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
I have an article on Franks Hat the link is http://www.dominichalpin.com/site/Franks_Hat.html Do you think this could go on the external links section of Franks Page ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Domh333 ( talk • contribs) 07:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
There are still issues with the dire lack of inline references. I just did a bit of clean up and wondered what the heck am I doing? I don't know who would bother to clean up weasel words/peacockery if there was a chance stuff was going to be deleted because it isn't sourced properly. if I'd written any of it, I'd put the inline references in, but I've only done one main edit. Come on guys, Mr. Sinatra deserves better!! By the way, please see "Fails to answer the big question", above. Rikstar 409 09:45, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Tom Dreesen was on the Late Show with David Letterman and was talking about Frank Sinatra. He was telling a story of how Frank Sinatra met a wife of a fan. She told him that her husband was ill and would really love an autograph. As Frank was signing the autograph she made a passing comment on how she liked his cuff links (worth $2000). After signing the autograph Frank promptly took off his cuff links and handed them to her. She tried to refuse, saying that she was only admiring them but Frank insisted that she take them. Afterwards Tom asked Frank why he had done that. Frank then replied:
"If you possess something but you can't give it away, then you don't possess it ...
... it possesses you."
Awesome quote. Akadewboy ( talk) 19:59, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
"Born in 1915 in Hoboken, New Jersey, Sinatra's parents had immigrated to the United States in 1895 and 1897..." If his parents were born in 1915 in New Jersey, as the sentence states, they could hardly have immigrated to the US in the 1890s. Sinatra's birth date and place are already covered, including in the infobox, so the incorrectly-descriptive introductory clause was simply deleted. Unimaginative Username ( talk) 07:59, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
There's been a ridiculous pokemon reference in the first line that keeps coming back, and one instance of it stayed over several edits. I've changed it back, but it isn't going to last. Either the mod for this page starts actually paying attention or this page needs to be locked or something. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.206.189 ( talk) 18:25, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
In his own article, Anthony Martin Sinatra is referred to throughout as "Marty". But here, he's "Tony". What gives? -- JackofOz ( talk) 12:16, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia is censoring certain external links to Frank Sinatra fan sites and 'unofficial' sites. I have tried to add a link to the expansive sinatraguide.com site, and have had it removed twice by Wikipedia, saying that it does not 'conform' to their guidelines - and yet similar links may be found on other many other artists' Wiki pages. I understand that 'fan' or 'unofficial' sites are not always valuable, but some of them are useful, and I think deserve a link. Iambret ( talk) 13:35, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Article currently reads: "His professional career had stalled by the 1950s ..."
"Professional career" seems redundant -- are not all careers professional? -- and not as accurate as it might be. The article then goes on to talk about his success in movies. Is not his movie career also part of his professional career?
A better phrasing might be:
"His musical career had stalled by the 1950s ..."
Opinions, anyone? I'm not an expert on Frank.
Karl gregory jones ( talk) 23:02, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
How about "His professional songmanship" 68.35.62.144 ( talk) 20:01, 12 March 2010 (UTC)12 March 2010
The Rat Pack. Oh, Wikipedia, will press agents ever stop reverting your alleged encyclopaedic content? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.13.30.104 ( talk) 16:08, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Frank Sinatra was Italian American Sammy8912 ( talk) 17:10, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Last words were "I'm losing it," not "I'm losing." See] and many other places on the Web. "I'm losing it" is the kind of "hip" talk that he favored. "I'm losing" goes against everything that is characteristic of his life and behavior. Lestrade ( talk) 20:37, 5 January 2010 (UTC)Lestrade
When did Sinatra undergo his major dental reconstruction? In his early photos, he did not have his signature rows of artificially perfect, straight, even, white choppers. It was obviously a good career move, as he can be seen smiling widely in most photographs. All of Hollywood emulated him in this, and still does so to this day. A related question would be: when did he start wearing a toupée? Sinatra was in the Kennedy coterie. Membership required vigorous hair and teeth. Lestrade ( talk) 15:23, 6 January 2010 (UTC)Lestrade
I've seen very early pictures of him--like in his early 20's--where his teeth appeared remarkably well aligned.
68.35.62.144 (
talk)
19:58, 12 March 2010 (UTC)12 March 2010
Please look at the top of this talkpage. This talkpage is meant for discussion about how to improve this article and not fansite type chit-chat. -- Morenooso ( talk) 20:02, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Can anybody please help me change the link in the "info" tab on Facebook from the BBC obit link to his official website, www.sinatra.com? Thank you! User:FSE_Admin ( talk) 20:37, 26 May 2011 (UTC)FSE_Admin
I have this article on Watch and have noticed that frequently the picture gets deleted by anon IPs more than on any other article I have on Watch (approximately 800). I wonder if Single-purpose account(s) are doing this? -- Morenooso ( talk) 10:18, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to start a new category in which items like the Broadway show "Come Fly Away" could be listed? Bryates999 ( talk) 20:38, 7 April 2010 (UTC)Bryates999
Last week, I got two photos from the Library of Congress for the Crooner page. The Frank Sinatra one is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Frank_Sinatra_ca._1947.jpg
More here:
While at LOC, I saw there's information on his Major Bowes appearance as well as a copy of the application made to the show for the audition. They're at:
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/trm018.html
in case you might want to add any of them.
We hope ( talk) 23:56, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
The article claims Sinatra supported Henry Wallace's Progressive Party candidacy for president in 1948. If so, that would be a controversial move by Sinatra. Some supporting evidence would be nice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.131.142.97 ( talk) 06:42, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
In the lead it says that he's an actor, but I couldn't find a single film with his performance in it. Can you name at least one? 92.46.98.220 ( talk) 00:09, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Not only was he an actor, but he won the OSCAR (I think as 'best supporting actor') for "From Here to Eternity". His film work was highly praised, and in fact it was his oscar-winning performance which played a big role in resuscitating his musical career at that point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DoctorMartin ( talk • contribs) 00:56, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Why is there no sample of his singing included in this article? - Richard Cavell ( talk) 09:03, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
The info box gives his birth name as "Francis Albert Sinatra". I'm fairly sure that his birth name was simply "Francis Sinatra". Mr. Sinatra gave himself the middle name "Albert". Joefromrandb ( talk) 11:20, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
The paragraph about the Cosby / Kennedy incident puts the date as 1962, but the Rat Pack article puts the date as 1963. Which one is it? Looking at the references, reference "lpo" ( http://www.hollywoodusa.co.uk/WestwoodObituaries/peterlawford.htm) has no date for the incident, and lists Wikipedia as its source, so surely it doesn't qualify as a reference. The other reference for the paragraph: http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/story/sinatra-turned-violent-after-kennedy-snub lists the date as 1962. Jesselong ( talk) 15:23, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
I normally dont bother with these things... but I had reason to look this incident up, coming to Wiki, I find theres much less information about this than one might imagine, specifically beyond the 'fags, pims and hookers' Mr Sinatra address one female reporter specifically as a 'Two bit Hooker, and the fall out was severe amongst her peers solidaritous unions. I recall Mr Sinatra was basically sieged in his hotel room, without services such as water, or power, initially.. before Union chiefs calmed them waters, I believe the meeting between Bob Hawke and Mr Sinatra was in itself so .. confrontational, as worth mention. This whole incident gives some important incite into the man and his relationship with the media at time, and was such an evident miscalculation on his part, as far as gaffs go, that it surely has to be one of the more imfamouse Celebrity blunders. It wasnt just a tit fot tat, it almost unravelled the tour. Well thats just my two cents.. I dont know who works these things.. but something I thought worth mentioning, upon finding a lack of information on the subject the one place I thought I would find some details.
"Many people consider Sinatra to be the finest singer of American popular music that ever lived, his only real rivals, artists such as Bing Crosby, Elvis Presley, Sammy Davis Jr., Dean Martin and Michael Jackson"
Why can't this be stated in the opening paragraphs with out someone always feeling the need to remove it? There are countless articles that were written over the years in many famous publications including Time, Downbeat, The New York Times and many more. And someone feels the need to say that this is an un-supported opinion? IT CERTAINLY IS SUPPORTED!
We are only trying to state facts, for those who are learning about Sinatra for the first time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.179.90.50 ( talk) 01:30, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I think 124.179.90.50 has raised some very valid points. Fat&Happy, there is countless evidence all over the internet and many decades of publishing work that proves all of this to be true. Why don't you try showing a little bit more respect and not resort to name calling and poking fun at 124.179.90.50's writing style as you did on the edit history page. I think you're the one who's trying to have an opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.217.44.36 ( talk) 06:03, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Indeed there are a few of us down under that feel this way about Sinatra. We have spoken about it often. Why don't you have a look at the entry on Elvis Presley? " was one of the most popular American singers of the 20th century" Why not take that out as well? I will gladly undo your edits so new comers will get to know Sinatra as they should. And so will my friends here in lovely Wagga Wagga Australia which is linked to the main Canberra internet data stream for our part of the world. How can one person change their ISP so quick in this world of "always on" ADSL connections? Don't you like a few young Sinatra fans getting together? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.217.192.128 ( talk) 15:14, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
So you want references eh? There are thousands. Give me a few days to find some. This aint over. I'll give you your references then I hope all you Wikipedia people won't undo my edits.
"One of the most popular singers in history," "widely revered by music historians as one of the best artists of all time..." Those are facts that show how amazing he was. Just saying that he was one of the "finest singers" without reference is not encyclopedic. DavidSSabb ( talk) 01:19, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Frank Sinatra was the greatest popular music singer that ever lived. This can be evaluated objectively based on the way he interprets a song. The most important aspect of a song is the interpretation of the words. Everything else is secondary. Listen to Louis Armstrong's "What a Wonderful World." It's not just the diction and phrasing that made Mr. Sinatra the greatest but when Mr. Sinatra sang a word such as lovely, the listener can feel it. No singer ever came close to Mr. Sinatra in the terms of gettinig the words across. He was the best at emphasing certain parts of the word in a subtle way without over emphasising, so the listener can feel the words being sung. For example, in the song, "Just the way you look tonight," Listen to when Mr. Sinatra sings "yes you're Lovely...," for the first time. Mr.Sinatra sings the word lovely with an ever so slight emphasis on the L, then going into a very soft open uh vowel with an ever so slight vibrato, then ending the word quickly with ..."vley." When Mr. Sinatra sings each subsequent word "lovely" it is sung differently according to it's context. Unlike other popular music singers, every single word that Mr.Sinatra sung was sung in such a way as to break that individual word down to interpret that word's meaning and context. And it's done so masterful that it's invisible. He also was the greatest at using the mobile microphone. The microphone was Mr. Sinatra's instrument. He knew every part of whatever mike he was using and what parts were good for the higher notes, the lower notes, and how to angle it to capture a whisper. He also was born with absolute pitch. I've read people writing things on the internet such as, "My father says that Sinatra sings flatter than a pancake." When you read something like this it's clear that the writer is talking out of their bazooka. No one born with perfect pitch is going to sing out of key. The list of objective reasons that makes Mr. Sinatra the greatest popular music singer that ever lived is endless. The above facts should be used to improve this article. I see nothing on here about Sinatra's technique, his use of the mobile microphone, his use of timing, nor the fact that he was born with absolute pitch. The above is not discussion or opinion, these are objective facts about Mr. Sinatra's techniques and abilities. So Fat&Happy please stop deleting my contributions. I'm not making discussion but I'm pointing out facts so maybe someone can pick up on them and do some research and use some of these facts in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fattyjoe ( talk • contribs) 14:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Is this your gut feeling that what I stated was highly dubious? If not, what is it based on? Frank Sinatra broke down every single word and this is a fact. I know the technique he used and I believe Mabel Mercer pioneered it and Frank Sinatra perfected it. After you understand it well enough it just comes second nature. Even singing the word 'it' was broken down in the technique that Mr. Sinatra used and sung according to it's context. Yes, even the word it. As for notable experts that share my opinions look for Sinatra by John Rockwell. John Rockwell is probably the best authority on the voice of Frank Sinatra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fattyjoe ( talk • contribs) 00:30, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Frank Sinatra "An American Classic" by John Rockwell is a source that will support everything I stated above. Saying that, what is your source when you called my statement regarding Mr. Sinatra's technique of breaking every word down that he sung "highly dubious"? Do you even have any knowledge, other than what is widely known about his diction and phrasing, regarding Mr. Sinatra's singing technique to make such a statement? ---FattyJoe — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fattyjoe ( talk • contribs) 12:03, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Some may say Mr. Sinatra used diphthongs in his phrasing, which he did. However his technique went beyond the use of diphthongs. I believe Rockwell's book says that Sinatra used Mabel Mercer's method then perfected it and made it his own. The technique does require the singer to break down every word for the proper phrasing technique. The word is inititally broken down as a dipthong. Then you have to look at the word that follows in order to evaluate how the initial word will be pronounced. For example, some t ending words will be pronounced as a soft d, and some s ending words will be pronounced as a soft z for smooth phrasing. It's a complex phrasing system that was pioneered by Mabel Mercer but perfected by Frank Sinatra. Fortunately I know the phrasing system very well. Unfortunately I don't believe Rockwell covers the details in his book. I learned the technique from a voice teacher in Philadelphia named Harold Singer and he called it the Mabel Mercer method. James Darren was one of Harold Singer's students and if you listen to him singing you can hear his use of dipthongs. On Sinatra's LA is My Lady album he cut "It's Alright With Me." The album was cut in the 80's. If you can listen to Mr. Sinatra's version and get a copy of Mabel Mercer's version which was cut at least 25 years prior, you don't need to be an expert to hear that the phrasing and timing are almost identical.
What I do remember in Rockwell was a story regarding Frank Sinatra's use of the microphone. When Marlon Brando and Frank Sinatra did Guys and Dolls it was no secret that they didn't get along. In spite of this when Mr. Sinatra was cutting his tracks in the recording studio and Brando being present Marlon Brando was amazed at the fact that he could hardly hear Frank Sinatra sing even though he was relatively close to him. This was so key to Mr. Sinatra's phrasing. Along with Frank Sinatra's intricate phrasing technique, he was able to use the microphone to capture the softest sound in order to emphasise the feeling he wanted to get across. According to Rockwell, Frank Sinatra's use of the microphone was better than any other singer in the world and a close second was Johnny Mathis. Paul Anka speaks frequently about him picking up Mr. Sinatra's microphone to discover that it was very hot, set on real high volume. ---FattyJoe — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.242.9.8 ( talk) 02:44, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Weirdly, this article almost entirely ignores Sinatra's extremely important movie career. WTF???????? Upsmiler ( talk) 03:56, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
did Sinatra ever write a song or did he interpret only? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.45.13.253 ( talk) 17:06, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
He co wrote one of the greatest torch songs that was ever written. "I'm A Fool To Want You" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fattyjoe ( talk • contribs) 14:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Why this garbage from 'the queen of gossip' is linked (without reference to real pages) to the article so often? Kelley never knew Frank Sinatra, she did not speak with his relatives or real friends. Her book is the collection of gossip and speculation about Sinatra from the tabloids. Why is the article not linked to 'Frank Sinatra: An American legend' by Nancy Sinatra, practically authorized biography of Frank Sinatra? Or other objective sources, for example, Earl Wilson's book, 'The Cinema of Sinatra' by Scott Allen Nollen etc. Is the artcle paid advertising of Kelley's dirty book? -- LordWeller ( talk) 13:58, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Kitty Kelley's book on Frank Sinatra is so obviouly biased that it is clearly not a reliable source. For example: Kitty Kelley allegedly did extensive research on the life and works of Frank Sinatra. If this is true, she would have easily known that since the early 50's when Mr. Sinatra signed with Capital until the time of Frank Sinatra's death that it was common knowledge that Frank Sinatra was an album artist and that singles way outsell albums. In spite of this, in Kelleys biased book written about Frank Sinatra, she compared Mr. Sinatra's record sales to artists who primarily sold singles. This comparison is so blatantly biased against Mr. Sinatra that it should prove that her book is not an objective reliable source to cite in this article. --FattyJoe
Unfortunately, I cannot edit this article. I'm Russian and my English is not good. -- LordWeller ( talk) 09:09, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Since this article IS a biography of Frank Sinatra, it is extremely redundant to have a separate article entitled Biography of Frank Sinatra. Time to merge the latter into this article. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 23:04, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
I believe a section of Wikipedia needs to be assembled for the Americas most important and influential figures. Or at least mentioned in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.234.156.151 ( talk) 08:03, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
13 1/2 pounds at birth? That's bullshit, be serious.
And especially not in an article about Frank Sinatra, an American, describing events that mostly take place in the USA. -- 63.25.100.198 14:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 00:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate the amount of work that went into this biography expansion. It was a lot of work. However, I do have some concerns regarding how much this article simply duplicates and expands the main Sinatra article. I don't have a strong opinion on which article needs the work, but one or the other needs to be condensed and rewritten with an eye toward making the material more unique. Since this is about Sinatra's life, I would suggest that the more extensive career material be pared and the personal life material more expanded. The article is also in need of improved referencing. There are a lot of facts, figures and quotes included with no reference whatsoever. Another issue concerns the puffery and use of weasel word descriptions and peacockery. Use of language such as "the results were, typically, outstanding," "in many ways could be considered the apex," "highly revered," "widely considered," "many considered," etc. aren't encyclopedic and violate WP:NPOV, WP:Peacock and WP:Weasel. I started working on some of this, but frankly, it's overwhelming. Hopefully, contributors will jump in and work on this. Wildhartlivie ( talk) 00:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
-- LordWeller ( talk) 20:03, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
One of the most crappy articles about singer or actor, the most important popular music figure of the 20th century [7]. It uses as main sources are second-hand, defamatory, fabricated rubbish books as Sinatra: The Life by Anthony Summers and His Way: Frank Sinatra by Kitty Kelley. These books should not even be mentioned as a source. It's the personal opinion of the writers that specifically manipulated the gossip and rumors from tabloids to slander Sinatra. It's shame to have such a lousy article in an encyclopedia. -- LordWeller ( talk) 10:27, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
He was never known as 'ole blue eyes' it was an invented marketing device to relaunch him the second time. Show me one single piece of evidence he was ever referred to as OBE prior to 1973!!! This is what happens when you get history written by musical ignoramuses who wern't even there at the time...... 80.5.101.158 ( talk) 21:59, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
I came here to read up on the scandal of Sinatra not being allowed to sing for/meet Prince Charles (with the Reagans) because of his mafia connections (I was hoping to read some of the quotes that Prince Charles said - I have a hazy recollection of them - he actually commented on Sinatra's gangster connections). Anyway, nothing about that at all in this bio. Zero. Zilch Nada. Clean as a whistle. The whole bio is laughable. I mean, why don't we have a bio of John Gotti and completely cleanse it of any mention of the mafia. It is these sorts of bios - this one of Sinatra - that make Wikipedia a less than useful resource. The information exists in print - in books like Kitty Kelley's book "His Way: Frank Sinatra" - but those books get criticized as being "fabricated" - well, if they were fabricated, then why didn't Sinatra sue? Or at least get the book prevented from being printed. It's because he couldn't - it would come out in court that it was true. Anyway, Sinatra was a choir boy according to this bio. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Betathetapi545 ( talk • contribs) 08:52, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
The part of the article which characterizes Frank Sinatra's relationship with Tommy Dorsey as being "troubled, because of their contract" is not true. Sinatra and Dorsey had a mostly 'father/son' type relationship that was not overly troubled. The contract dispute which is being referred to occurred only at the end of Sinatra's professional relationship with Dorsey, the contract which allowed him to leave the band after he had already been happily associated with it for over two years. This information was obtained from the excellent biography of Frank's early career entitled "Frank: The Voice" by James Kaplan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.226.85.204 ( talk) 21:52, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
In the Early Life section is says that Frank "sucked other men's penises to make some quick cash". I don't know much about Sinatra, thats why I came to this article, But I'm pretty sure this is vandalism. Can somebody who knows more fix this?
Few years ago, i had read that the sales figure is above 500 million, but now i am reading here, that it's 150 million? I am sure that something is wrong, or maybe they are misinterpreted somewhere. Again, i am not sure, but you can have a look, [8], [9]. Capitals00 ( talk) 14:22, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
It is still unclear if Ronan Farrow is in fact Sinatra's son. The article probably should omit him from the list of Sinatra's children. Timothy Horrigan ( talk) 23:14, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Frank Sinatra by Gottlieb c1947- 2.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on November 5, 2013. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2013-11-05. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 ( talk) 22:53, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Wow, someone managed to write an entire article without once mentioning Frank Sinatra's infamous trips to Havana? Total whitewash job. And to add to the point, I noticed a certain level of defensiveness in the earlier talk sections when someone mentioned his relations to the Mafia. 67.172.20.73 ( talk) 03:45, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
I removed "Atheisim" the reference did not support it. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 17:44, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
Just nominated Sinatra as a vital article, with Jimi Hendrix being the candidate for removal. See Wikipedia_talk:Vital_articles#Induct_Frank_Sinatra.2C_remove_Jimi_Hendrix. MackyBeth ( talk) 10:31, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Why is there no discussion of his vocal style and legacy here ? What is his contribution to that singing genre - surely near the very top ? Did he develop Bing's contribution or not ?
86.138.151.92 ( talk) 21:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
what about his history of domestic violence and sexism towards women?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.81.170 ( talk) 11:06, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
@ Dr. Blofeld:, @ We hope:, @ This is Paul:, I've done some preliminary work with the books (by the way, I can add "Sinatra in Popular Culture" back to the list, I have it available at my library and on cursory review would be useful for a "legacy/impact" section) and would like to discuss they layout. Should discussion continue here, or should the re-write discussion take place at Wikipedia talk:Frank Sinatra? Thanks! 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 16:25, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Excellent. I do want to get cracking with this. The grant request is currently being processed. I think for now we should work and discuss it at the Wikipedia: page.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:25, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Did a preliminary round of image formatting, basically with two goals: 1) Fixed image sizes are discouraged, as users can set different size defaults and a fixed size does not scale if that parameter is altered... for example, 180px is the default, but if someone sets their prefs to default at 300px, an image at 250px can look smaller, not larger. The lead image I kept a bit larger, which appears to be what others wanted, by use of the "upright" parameter combined with a scale as to how much larger... (i.e. "upright=2.0" would make an image double the default size). Open to size changes if needed, but within better formatting syntax. Montanabw (talk) 03:34, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
2) Did some very, very preliminary rearranging, mostly to avoid sandwiched text (at least, as it appears on my screen), played with the "upright" parameter on some of the images that otherwise seemed a bit too large, but that's not anything I'm real wedded to. Montanabw (talk) 03:40, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Thankyou Montana but your "Fixed image sizes are discouraged" is starting to look preachy and petty again. I don't want to see that sort of thing from you. Some images do look better at a bigger size, sometimes they're needed. It should depend on the actual case, not on some invented "rule" by some pious numpty.♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:16, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
That's OK. I generally like 250px, standard thumb for portraits. I won't object to all standard, though I do think some look better larger on my screen.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:05, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Oddly, according to my prefs, the default thumbnail is now 220px... I thought it once was 250px, and maybe it is, but I use the monobook layout...? I think that "upright=1.2" will give you the equivalent of 250 px if you want/need it. There are going to be some layout decisions that will have to be made at some point in the article, as there are more images that we can effectively lay out. I'm wondering - and willing to do the syntax - if we could do some multiple image layouts (like I did [ [10]] or (less elegantly) here. Montanabw (talk) 17:59, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Unfortunately there seems to be a problem with matching up page numbers. I have the 2008 Sinatra in Hollywood book and there's a quote which was supposed to be on page 122 in google books of the 2009 book but it's not there in the book I have. In fact coverage of that film is around page 84, can't find the Till the Clouds quote either. Was it published by a different publisher in 2009 or something?♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:07, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
Found it on page 81 but somebody needs to check the Santopietro page numbers now with the 2008 book. I'll do it after I've gone through the book if nobody else can!♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:32, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
This article is going to get pretty massive during the writing stage. It needs to be researched and made as comprehensive as possible first. It might head towards 200kb before I come to the cutting. Obviously we're going to have to create a number of sub articles and trim it down later. But it is one of the most "core" biographies on wikipedia, it's to be expected.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:08, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Well, we'll see how it goes and what I find in the books. Obviously we don't want to exclude anything of importance.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:00, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
This is definitely going to get pretty enormous in the next week or two as we really ensure it is comprehensive. When we pass 200kb we might have to start the condensing process in parts of the article as it might prove problematic for some computers in the meantime. It'll be worth it once done though. I've ordered the next two books now. We'll find a way to split and keep most material though but condense in the main article once done. I think you'd expect an article on Sinatra to be a very long one anyway given the two major careers and other important things like politics and mafia etc. Last time I checked around lunch time it was 102kb of readable prose. Perhaps we should be aiming for something in 90-100 kb range once completed. We'll have to debate that one as some people would still find that too long. I think you'd expect this to have to be longer than the Laurence Olivier article which is about 70kb readable prose. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:51, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
I know I said about Skelton being a good role model, in many ways I still think it should be. But given the fact that certain songs Sinatra sang go hand in hand with some of his films and were vehicles for his releases, not to mention my preference for reading about somebody's life chronologically as one, I'm thinking actually of merging both into one. I think if we do that the overall thing will deem less daunting to research and read. You get through a big singing career section and then have to read a big film career section. For me personally after reading a hefty singing section I'd probably not want to read the film career section. I'll see as it develops, but I really think merging is likely here.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:08, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. OK I've done the merge albeit haphazardly as to be expected for now. The 50s and 60s read poorly at present though given the awkward combo of mostly film info with some stray album sentences. Naturally when completed there'll be a decent balance there. I've not even begun researching his albums and songs yet! So it's going to be poor and unbalanced for a while but a temporary blip in the grander scheme of things and needs to be done I think to make it more straightforward to read in the long term. Any help from anybody to improve the musical coverage especially 50s period and sourcing the 80s and 90s will be much appreciated to help to start balancing it out.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:04, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
It has its wikignomes already, but it needs is proper researchers to cover the material on him!♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:09, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, somebody needs to go through it as some sources were added from the original, but as I was doing it I was aware that a fair bit of what was written wasn't in the sources. If you compare to the earlier version you can see what was unsourced previously. It will all need checking before it goes to FAC. If you, or anybody here can check as many of them as you can this would be a great help. I'll try to check the Santopietro ones this evening which seem to have the wrong page numbers in places later.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:28, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Consider restructuring the Career section into his recording phases, which reflect a more common division of his career.
A separate Film career section could still be included, but limited to a summary of three or four paragraphs. Bede735 ( talk) 00:46, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
@ Bede735: I'm going to go back to the separate film career section. It works together in the 1940s but for the 1950s and 1960s along with the bulk of his record stuff and concerts it's too bloated and convoluted all in together. We'll have to find a way to deal with the overlap in parts where songs were recorded for film. Film career of Frank Sinatra has been started anyway so I think I'll re-sort again and condense. That should make it easier then to develop the music career in 50s and 60s without the bloat on both careers.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:42, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
MBW, per this revert: ( [11]), with the accompanying edit summary: Material fails verification at source cited, which source did you check? Because the material that I added ( [12]) and you removed is verifiable to the source I cited, which is Kaplan 2011. RO (talk) 16:58, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
{{ Sfn}} is giving out a few citation errors, because four of these templates don't link to any source. I've hidden three of them, but there is one that I am unsure of: "Levinson 2005, p. 138", currently citation #198. Is anyone willing to fix that, as well as any of the other citation errors? I am not confident as to where "Levinson 2005, p. 138" should link to. Epic Genius ( talk) 00:14, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
There's a book on Levinson in the sources, it should be there. Perhaps Sagacious can fix anything remaining.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:00, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. User:Epicgenius please don't hide refs like that. Can you restore them so they can be fixed? It's usually the case that I forgot to add the book in the sources.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:48, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
As this soars over 115kb of readable prose (with some vital info still left to cover) we're really going to have to start planning how to split the material. It's going to need a severe chop when we're done. Emailed a few people and somebody pointed out that Ronald Reagan's article is 84 kb of readable prose, a good example with two big careers, one of course President, bigger than Sinatra's. I was thinking about 90kb for Sinatra but I think some people will still complain about the length. So I think something in the 80s kb range might be the target. That means that we're going to have to lose at least 30kb of readable prose. Much of the material is relevant and it would be shame to lose much content. How about:
We'll need to max the article out as it is though to make it as comprehensive as possible. But as it's approaching a stage which it might start to crash people's computers we might need to think about getting parts of it done and splitting in stages as soon as we can. Obviously Music career will be the last one to file down. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:59, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! I'm not sure we can really get away with a Music career of Frank Sinatra actually. We have his albums and songs and it should really be the main article which gives a summary of it. I think we'll skip that idea. But it'll have to be condensed right down here once written, so if RO was going to add content on that I can't see the condensing part going very well.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:02, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Proposing the following as a chop for the main article. Thoughts RO/Montana? I don't want to split it without RO agreeing to it. The details about the arrest and Barbato tiff can go in personal life in a trimmed down version. I think actually the 1938 Cafe stuff belongs in early career before Harry James. The sources will have to be checked as in trimming some refs might have got placed in the wrong place, particularly over his parents origins which needed a few different sources to compile.
Francis Albert Sinatra was born on December 12, 1915, in an upstairs tenement at 415 Monroe Street [a] in Hoboken, New Jersey. He was the only child of Italian immigrants Natalina "Dolly" Garaventa, the daughter of a lithographer from Genoa, [3] and Antonino Martino "Marty" Sinatra, from Catania, Sicily. [4] [5] [6] The couple had eloped on Valentine's Day, 1913 in Jersey City, New Jersey. [7] Sinatra weighed 13.5 pounds (6.1 kg) at birth [8] and had to be delivered with the aid of forceps, which caused severe scarring to his left cheek, neck, and ear, and perforated his ear drum, damage that remained for life. [9] [10] A childhood operation on his mastoid bone left major scarring on his neck, and during adolescence he suffered from cystic acne that scarred his face and neck. [11] Sinatra was raised Roman Catholic, [12] but due to his injuries at birth, his baptism was delayed for several months. [8]
When Sinatra's mother, Natalina, was a child, her pretty face earned her the nickname "Dolly". Having the temperament of a politician, [13] she was influential in Hoboken and in local Democratic Party circles. [14] She also worked as a midwife, earning $50 for each delivery, [13] and according to Sinatra biographer Kitty Kelley, ran an illegal abortion service that catered to Italian Catholic girls. [15] [b] Sinatra's illiterate [19] father was a bantamweight boxer who fought under the name Marty O'Brien. [4] He later worked for 24 years at the Hoboken Fire Department, working his way up to Captain. [20] Sinatra spent much time at his parent's bar in Hoboken, working on his homework and occasionally singing a song on top of the player piano for spare change. [21] During the Great Depression, Dolly provided money to her son for outings with friends and to buy expensive clothes, and neighbors described him as the "best-dressed kid in the neighborhood". [22] Excessively thin and small as a child and young man, Sinatra's skinny frame later became a staple of jokes during stage shows. [23]
Sinatra developed an interest in music, particularly big band jazz, from a young age, [24] He listened heavily to Gene Austin, Rudy Vallée, Russ Colombo and Bob Eberly, and "idolized" Bing Crosby, adopting Crosby's props such as a sailor's cap and pipe in his own performances. [25] Sinatra's maternal uncle, Domenico, gave him a ukulele for his 15th birthday, and he began performing at family gatherings. [26] Sinatra graduated from David E. Rue Junior High, [27] and enrolled at A. J. Demarest High School on January 28, 1931, where he arranged bands for school dances. [26] He left without graduating, having attended only 47 days before being expelled for "general rowdiness". [24] [27] To please his mother, he enrolled at Drake Business School, but departed after 11 months. [26] Dolly found Sinatra work as a delivery boy at the Jersey Observer newspaper, where his godfather Frank Garrick worked, [c] and briefly as a riveter at the Tietjen and Lang shipyard. [29] He performed in local Hoboken social clubs such as The Cat's Meow and The Comedy Club, and sang for free on radio stations such as WAAT in Jersey City. [30] In New York Sinatra found jobs singing for his supper or for cigarettes, [26] and began taking 45-minute elocution lessons for a dollar under vocal coach John Quinlan to improve his speech. [31]
This will go in early career----------
In 1938, Sinatra found employment as a singing waiter at a roadhouse called The Rustic Cabin in Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey, for which he was paid $15 a week. The roadhouse was connected to the WNEW radio station in New York City, and Sinatra began performing with a group live during the Dance Parade show. [32] [33] Despite the low salary, he felt that this was the break he was looking for, and boasted to friends that he was going to "become so big that no one could ever touch him". [34] Fellow musicians began to resent his cocksure attitude and mocked him for having little talent, to which Sinatra would flare up, angrily cursing and swearing at the others. [35]
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The article crept up to 205kb. It was getting ridiculously long. If we kept on it would get to 300 kb. It needs to take shape gradually and get into proportion. I showed some respect here and told you the plan. If you're going to take it personally you can clear off RO.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:40, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
My view was "write before spinoffs," I didn't mean "ignore bloat." One thing I'd do is chop cruft before splitting, as if it's really and truly cruft, it has to go anyway. If my motives can be viewed as honorable, I'd like to take a whack at it, and anything you disagree with, {[ping|Dr. Blofeld}}, feel free to revert. Montanabw (talk) 20:15, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
I'm considering putting in a grant request for books to get this article to FA by December 12th. Given how many books are available though (see Frank Sinatra bibliography) I think we'd really need to read around 20 books and countless other sources to really make it comprehensive and the best possible article. It's a big project but can be achieved, but I need a few others who can commit to it too and share the books. Such is the amount of material written on him I'd imagine detailed sub articles like Film career of Sinatra and Music career of Frank Sinatra would be the way to go with a general overview here which is highly comprehensive but condensed. Anybody interested?♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:16, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
We hope, This is Paul?♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:15, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Potential book requests by grant from WMUK:
Total =£45.91 not including postage
Ideally three of us could split the reading with eight books each. If there's just two of us we'll have to reduce it a bit. But I really think all of those books should be read before this is promoted to ensure it is fully comprehensive.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:29, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
User:Bede735 would you be interested in this too?♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:38, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Great. Well let us know which books you're going to get, to make sure we don't get the same.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:17, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
OK, I wasn't aware it was the same stuff. you can take care of that one then!
Rubbish. Those are lists. You could write over 100 kb of decent well-written informative prose for each.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:02, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
I believe the following would also be very useful for perspective:
@ 78.26: Yes I'll add that to the list. Just wrapping the Kubrick stuff up for GA. 78.26 if you can commit to this I'll request all of the books, split between the three of us.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:49, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
@ Dr. Blofeld:, I think this is a great idea and I'd like to be involved. I got Jo Stafford up to FAC in 2013, and want to do some work on Johnny Mercer. But I'd be limited as to the number of books I could realistically get through in the timeframe we'll be working to. Three would probably be manageable, though I could do four at a stretch. Let me know which ones you get and I'll find some different ones from Amazon. I actually have a copy of Mr S so can make a start on that. Also, Sinatra is mentioned in the Jo Stafford/Paul Weston autobiography Song of the Open Road, which I've also got. The pair toured with him in the 1940s while they were all members of the Tommy Dorsey Orchestra, so I'll see what I can get from that book as well. This is Paul ( talk) 21:21, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
Dr. Blofeld, just in case there is any doubt, yes, I am committing to this. My only request is I'd like to be assigned the book "Remembered: Sessions with Sinatra" as this is directly in my field of interest. For what it's worth, my local library has a copy of this. 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 23:45, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
According to their website my local library has a couple of Sinatra biographies that are not included on the above list, so I'll look into borrowing them. The titles are:
It might take me a few days to get hold of them though because the list includes titles held by every library in the county, and it looks like they'll have to be sent to my local library from a different branch. Let me know if these would be ok, and in the event of them being unavailable I'll source them from Amazon. This is Paul ( talk) 22:38, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
"It really doesn't need that much more research. ". Hmm. The film career coverage IMO looks very sketchy, and I'd expect there to be more on his earlier life in particular. I think this article could be greatly improved, not a criticism of your work on it to date, but given the traffic that this gets, more than even Cary Grant or Jimmy Stewart I'd say this is more of a priority.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:14, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
@ Dr. Blofeld: I've ordered three books from the library, which should be with me in a couple of weeks. I went for the following;
I see from the discussion above the Clark bio may not be so useful, but hopefully there'll be something good in it. As previously mentioned, I have Mr S, and plan to make a start on that over the weekend. I'll also consult the Stafford/Weston book again, and I have a bio of Johnny Mercer that may be worth a look too. All the best, This is Paul ( talk) 21:58, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Great, I'll cross those off the list.♦ Dr. Blofeld 08:52, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes, that can be the goal after Sinatra. Sinatra frequently mentions Mercer in credits for his live performances. He was a close friend I believe. Somebody like Danny Thomas might also be a possibility at a later date. What a beautiful soul his daughter is!♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:30, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
User:78.26 and User:This is Paul Are you both definitely on board with this then? Once we settle what books you and We hope will get on your own accord I'll be making a formal grant request for books probably Tuesday. We can then split the remaining books between us.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:36, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
OK, on Tuesday then we'll sort out who has got what and then I can make a proposal for the remaining books probably Thursday.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:16, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
Which biography is considered the definitive one for Sinatra? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:09, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
User:This is Paul + User:78.26 -OK what books did you get then?♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:27, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
Good idea, we've begun drafting it at Wikipedia:Frank Sinatra. Obviously we will use a great deal of material from the current article but it's just easier to set out the new layout that way and see exactly where we are piece by piece.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:27, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
As I work in the wikipedia space I'm increasingly feeling like abandoning the sandbox idea and just working with the main article. I feel more motivated when I edit the main article. We'll need to check the existing sourcing and rewrite but I think it might be best after all to just work on the main article and begin reshaping it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:59, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
@ 78.26: and @ This is Paul: Are either of you intending to work on it then? The focus really needs to be on his music, albums and songs.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:26, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
@ This is Paul: The thing is if we're really going to get it to FA by Dec it's got to be done this month. Obviously we don't have to bother with FA and could just go for GA but it wouldn't be the same. That's why I've been wanting to get a lot of the work done in early October because we can then see how much is left to do and work more leisurely.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:06, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
Music career definitely, though anything you find anywhere is always appreciated. The focus now really needs to be on his music. More songs need mentioning and some discussion, particularly his better known ones like My Way, Come Fly with me and Fly me to the Moon. There needs to be mention of songs like I've Got Your Under My Skin, coverage of songs written especially for him, more of an insight into his relationship with Van Heusen, Mercer, Cahn, Arlen etc. critical commentary on them aside from mentioning many more of his albums. Also more on the technology behind them, I added a bit on changes in technology being important but it could be reinforced throughout with more technical record info which you seem knowledgeable about. I'm not sure how scans of the records will fare in copyright though, I'd imagine that most of them are copyrighted and would have to be removed at FAC anyway.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:10, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Can I suggest splitting this section into subsections as it's getting rather cumbersome to edit. I was alerted to a ping on this page from @ Dr. Blofeld: this evening, but am having difficulty locating the post. This is Paul ( talk) 21:10, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
First, I get referencing errors at the end of the "notes" section. Can someone fix that? Second, how do I properly reference this in sfn format, given that each chapter has a different author? Thanks! 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 20:18, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
The problem with this, and part of the reason why RO and myself had a run in is that this article very easily soars up to 200kb. Even with chopping 25kb odd the other day it's quickly heading back to 200kb. Now the best articles are usually written first without any form of condensing but it's impossible to do with this. I'm really not used to working with an article with this amount to cover and 200kb and 500 refs. I keep thinking somebody is going to interfere with it if it gets too large and complaints about computers crashing. Do we not worry about the size for now and potentially watch it get to over 250kb? Every time it hits 200kb I sort of groan. But it needs to get big to really make it comprehensive overall and to ensure there's a good balance of sources. Thoughts?♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:54, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
In looking Ronald Reagan is 209 kb in total size. I know he was President but Sinatra I think you'd expect similar coverage. We'll see how it goes anyway but I think by the time we're done we're going to find it impossible to get down to less than 150kb in total. I think it's going to have to be a very long one even condensed to do it justice.♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:08, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Currently 75kb readable prose. I think it's now in reasonable range.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Off-topic discussion
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From my talk page and my reply:
Per this revert: ( [13]), with the accompanying edit summary: Material fails verification at source cited, which source did you check? Because the material that I added and you removed is verifiable to the source I cited, which is Kaplan 2011. RO (talk) 16:58, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
The nickname is irrelevant and sensationalistic; Sinatra being barred from performing at a church was because his mother was known to have performed abortions, not because she had a nickname. You made similar arguments about the use of racist and sensationalistic language at the Irataba FAC - the fact that something is in a source doesn't mean we have to use it indiscriminately. Wikipedia is not a tabloid, we need an encyclopedic tone here. It isn't my opinion, it's MOS.
Montanabw
(talk)
01:22, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Unlike you, I learn from my mistakes; and the mistake of too-close paraphrasing I made in 2007 - as I told you at my RfA - was fixed within about 48 hours and that article is now GA-class. And as for Cal Chrome, it went through GA PR and FA with a rigorous review. There are a number of direct quotations in there, properly attributed,, plus it has now been widely copied on a lot of mirror sites, so I am aware that it flags red on an automated check. You want to start drama, go somewhere else. You've allegedly been here a year and yet have been accused of socking at least three times, and dragging people to ANI constantly (I see you name on 21 cases, though some are just comments.) So stop your personal attacks on me. And grow up.
Montanabw
(talk)
17:44, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
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User:Nikkimaria, User:Casliber, User:J Milburn? Is there any chance you could do a spot check and check as many of the sources for verification as you can? User:Montanabw and anybody else is also welcome to help. Perhaps split it between you? There's a lot of issues I think which need ironing out before this proceeds to GA and further in time for his centenary on Dec 12th. Some of the problems crept in I think because a lot of the previously written text was unsourced and I had to start patching it up, so if you compare with version in September you'll see what is still here and what might be the best place to look. I have the Nancy and Barbara Sinatra books coming probably on Monday and will then get the Kaplan and Granata/Friedwald wbooks I think and even out some of the Kelley sources, that should be enough then. But in the meantime I really need the sourcing all ironed out and as sound as possible before I continue. I'll try to chase up the Santopietro sources now.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:53, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
I've sorted out all of the Santopietro ones for starters. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:48, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Or shall we wait until the whole thing is done to do a source check as a lot of the Kelley sources and content will be replaced and it might still change a fair bit before its ready? I don't think it would harm to start checking a few of them in the meantime, but up to you.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:28, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Frank Sinatra | |
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![]() Frank Sinatra in 1957 | |
Born | Francis Albert Sinatra December 12, 1915 |
Died | May 14, 1998 | (aged 82)
Resting place | Desert Memorial Park, Cathedral City, California, U.S. |
Spouse(s) |
Nancy Barbato (
m. 1939–1951)Barbara Marx (1976–1998; his death) |
Children |
Nancy Sinatra Frank Sinatra, Jr. Tina Sinatra |
Parent(s) |
Anthony Martin Sinatra Natalina Garaventa |
Musical career | |
Genres | |
Years active | 1935–1996 [2] |
Labels | |
Website |
sinatra |
Could someone fix that? - Dpm12 Dpm12 ( talk) 05:29, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
We don't even need the infobox.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:06, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
Oppose inclusion of info box and per WP:BRD I have removed it meantime so full discussion can take place here. In this case the box includes a lot of trivia resulting in severe bloat. A personality such as Sinatra with an extensive career covering so many genres and associated acts, has been married several times with a number of children means the box is filled to overflowing and trails never endingly down the page. It may be appropriate to use in bios of sports people but serves little useful purpose here. SagaciousPhil - Chat 08:05, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
"The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article"), and a number of other actor articles don't have one. A well-written lead covers all the important points, and does so in an intelligent way, providing context and nuance to the bare "facts". - SchroCat ( talk) 13:15, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Closing unconnected subthread - the IB conversation can flow round this - SchroCat ( talk) 12:32, 1 October 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Thank you for that useful link, RO. It is
you who never edited the article before today, and you popped up only after
Dr. Blofeld posted to my talk page about it. I first edited the article on the 29th (as history shows) and it is very poor form and looks really bad for you to be stalking my edits following your own highly questionable behavior at my RfA. I deliberately checked this article to see if you had touched it before I ever did a single edit! I noted the article was discussed at Blofeld's page and I actually had a sincere desire to help. I'm also willing to forego a long infobox discussion, though I don't think it is a good idea to remove an infobox from an article that's had one for 10 years and consider it a bit POINT-y. But I've said my piece and If the literature and classical music people wish to keep their own closed shop on the matter, I'm quite fatigued by it. Frankly, RO, I'm trying to avoid articles where you have edited in the past unless they clearly fall within the purview of a project where I am already a member, and it might be a really good idea for you to do the same.
Montanabw
(talk)
21:12, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
C'mon, this isn't the place for this.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:31, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
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I suggest we don't argue as if someone wanted to include an infobox here now. Someone added it in 2005, as pointed out above. To remove it (as on 24 Sep) seems a rather bold edit which should be reverted and discussed. If the box seems bloated, discuss parameters please. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 23:16, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Support infoboxes for long bios since they are always important. This discussion is another in a series of infobox wars that were started when this and other editors summarily removed it without first discussing. -- Light show ( talk) 02:00, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Support infobox... opposition is just more WP:IDHT and WP:IDONTLIKEIT obstructionism. It is a long bio with a long lede, the infobox has high utility and a net improvement. Especially, obstructionist...and I notice one of the opposer's big accomplishments is repeatedly insisting on the pointy insertion of a false title "the" in DYKs. A collapsible infobox is not an acceptable compromise, I consider it functional obstruction. JackTheVicar ( talk) 13:25, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Oppose -- I feel that strongly about it that I have come off of a break to say so. No surprises in seeing the idiot fraternity throwing around such inevitable guidelines including " WP:IDHT and WP:IDONTLIKEIT". I'll lay may mortgage on it that WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and WP:AGF will come next. Cassianto Talk 15:25, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Support infobox Sometimes readers need quick information and don't have time to browse through the entire article. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 16:16, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Well nobody cares what your preference is aside from Gerda. Do us a favour and bugger off back to ANI now, there's a good boy.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:26, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
"Last I checked this was a talk-page for article improvement". You said it. So you're inferring that by voting "support infobox" you think you're somehow bringing about an article improvement. Again I repeat, what would you know about improving articles which would appeal to anybody other than an 8 year old in Tokyo? Obviously you think your opinion and input in discussions is very valuable. What made you turn up here? Whose edits were you stalking? Montana's or Cassianto's? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:59, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Frank Sinatra | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() Sinatra in 1957
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In an attempt to allow Dr. Blofeld some peace and quiet to concentrate on re-writing the article without the distraction of this bickering, would it be acceptable to try to gain a temporary compromise using a collapsible info box as done on the Peter Sellers article in the meantime? SagaciousPhil - Chat 09:12, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
It would look like this. SagaciousPhil - Chat 09:14, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Don't normally like the things, but in this case I think it might be the better solution for the time being. It hides the horrible bloat, and the infobox enthusiasts still have their cake.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:22, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Closing subthread - the IB conversation has a temporary fix, let's leave it be Montanabw (talk) 22:53, 3 October 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
The obvious solution is to restore the infobox in total. Only a few of the sixty-five recent FA media biographies lacks one, with a ratio of 20 to 1 in favor of including it. The ratio is actually 65 to 0 in favor if we exclude the same 3 editors warring to remove this one. Which is also a reason why the other bios where it was summarily deleted should have them restored. If peace and quiet is the goal, then destabilizing accepted formats shouldn't be done first. -- Light show ( talk) 16:53, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
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References
The reason why I've been working on this heavily the last few days is that if you think about it, if we're going to feature this as TFA on Dec 12th we only really have four or five weeks left. Minimum 2 weeks for TFA proposal, potential three weeks at FAC given who it is, a week at least for a peer review. So it really does need to be approaching FA standard by this time next month in early November to realistically get there in time. I'm sure we could grab an extra week and an exception could be made should the FAC start later and plan it for the 12th but it really needs to develop consistently over the next month. A GA DYK for Dec 12 is always a back up plan, but I think with a considerable effort this is achievable if there is mutual support here. I don't think the scale of the task left is as big as I'd initially envisaged, a lot of books recycle the same material and I don't think I really need as many books as I'd initially thought. Already we've consulted a wide range of sources on this, and nobody would expect us to use every source ever written about him! But it is important that we try to read as much as possible, and that's where I need a few collaborators helping make this comprehensive before we condense and finish it. The focus now really needs to go into his albums and songs.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:26, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
FWIW, I took an article straight to FAC without doing GA first, it's allowable. From what I'm seeing here, the changes being made to get it to GAN are basically FAC quality anyway. I don't know if anyone has ever done a SIMULTANEOUS GAN/FAC submission, but given the GAN backlog, frankly I think there is something to be said for just going straight for the gold ring, (or star). Montanabw (talk) 22:56, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
The sourcing needs to be sound before it's GA level. A lot of the sources need checking and the full text verifying as there was a lot of unsourced earlier material which had to be traced up. Actually what I meant RO was that in early November we can head to FAC. Even if somehow it didn't go through FA then there'd still be time to nom and pass GA and DYK. But I think you're right at it would be best to take it to GA before nomming for FA to have that as a back up. There's still a lot of work to do even before I'd be happy with even a GA on this though. It's an extraordinary biography which needs a massive amount of research and pruning to really produce a good article.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:46, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
I think we can get it there within the time frame without a rush, but is does also depend on how much time others are willing to put towards helping review/improve and promote it. I thought it would be a rush 10 days ago but a lot has developed since then. The bulk of it is really done. We already use a massive range of books and sources. We can't be expected to use every source ever written about him. Given the size limitations we can't cram in everything, it has to be a basic outline which we're nearing achieving. The question is whether I can still be bothered to get it there. We'll have it at GA in a week or two but I will really need a lot of assistance in helping promote it all the way. I still have a few books I want to read to ensure it is definitely reasonably comprehensive but I'm a bit bored with it at the moment, I think this might be the longest I've ever worked on one article. I am enjoying researching it though, but I'll take a break from it now until Monday I think. Hopefully the sourcing issues can start to be ironed out by others.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:59, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
My 2c - go for the GA and DYK as first priority. I haven't touched the article so I could always do the review, and that will be wrapped up in a week. Then we can stick the DYK in the holding pen for December 12. If you want TFA you really need to have passed FAC round about now, and given I see discussions about source spotchecking, I'd have thought you'd need a minor miracle to get the front page for that date. Once the DYK has run (and this is the clever bit) you start work on the FAC, get that passed, and put it for TFA on May 14, 2018 - 20th anniversary of his death. Everybody wins. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:51, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
There's a two week minimum threshold for TFA requests. With Carl Nielsen a special case was made with a reserve article right up until days before. So that shouldn't be a problem. It would have to be largely finished by the end of the month though. I'm not sure if I can be bothered to go all the way, especially with the ilk of people this is attracting on the talk page. It could be the sort of article that a lot of people will be difficult with at FAC. So yes, definitely GA, but we'll see how it goes. There's so many other articles which need bare minimum work..♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
I'd be very cautious about making the Kelley book a primary source for this article. Here's what the NYTs had to say: ( [21])
"Unless one believes Frank Sinatra Jr., Mia Farrow (Frank Sinatra's third wife) and Elizabeth Taylor (one of his lovers) - all of whom have made public statements attributing to the author inaccuracy or cupidity - Ms. Kelley is a good reporter ... Even if one were to suppose that facts are in and of themselves truth, could one then say that Ms. Kelley has command of the facts of Mr. Sinatra's life? No ... [Sinatra] sued to keep this book from being published [and] Not a direct word is heard from any of Mr. Sinatra's four wives ... not a word from two of his three children.
There are currently more than 130 cites to Kelley 1986, which is about 30% of the citations. Don't say I didn't warn you, but this will probably come up at FAC, or at least it should come up. A 29-year-old "unauthorized" bio that was slammed at the time for inaccuracy should not be the backbone of the Sinatra narrative in 2015. That should be Kaplan 2011 and Kaplan 2015. RO (talk) 19:45, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Apology accepted. I'm also sorry that I had to cut your work on it so soon but I'm having to chop most of the article to get it down to a more normal size. I was getting concerned that it was hitting 200kb which is pretty wild for an encyclopedia article, even on Sinatra. I was of course planning to write it all first but it got too big too quickly and desperately needed cutting. The Kelly thing is a valid concern as you say, and it is one of the most pressing issues with article at present until I get some more books. But in the context you brought it up I did find it most unsettling. I'll try to cut back more on Kelley and replace many of the sources. I think it can be used pretty moderately but nowhere near 30%, I hadn't realised it was quite that much. If you can replace many of the Kelley sources with Kaplan or anybody else I'd be fine with it to balance things out more.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:36, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
I don't know what the Kelley ref count is now but I think we now use a reasonable number in comparison to others.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:44, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
So what happened with the lead image switch - copyright problem? Should we consider just going back to one of the older ones that is of better quality? The one there now looks like something from a horror film. I think we can find appropriate fair use images and some PD copyright-not-renewed material that will work. Montanabw (talk) 22:22, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
It wasn't better quality. Colour yes but like the Steiger colour one was fuzzy. The black and white was better quality I think but probably a bit too dark for the lede image. The 1957 one currently in 1950s I tried didn't look like him at all and makes him look like one of Blofeld's cats! I've restored it for the time being, not the cropped one though which looked fuzzier. I think the best quality image is the 1943 one in Honors which I think would look best at the top without an infobox. We'll come to that when we get there. Kaplan and Granata books on their way soon, after that, an article trim and copyedit and a lede update it should be ready for GA. The sourcing could still do with a random check but it should be a lot better now. I'm not going to work on this much until I have Kaplan now.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:39, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Currently, Columbus Day Riot re-directs to Sinatra. However, there is no mention of this important event in the Sinatra article. I know the article has been pared down, but I feel this is crucial to understanding just how rabid his fan following was at the time. Was it taken out because of poor sourcing? If so, I've got a really good source. Perhaps the re-direct should be turned into its own article? This event was was important not only to Sinatra, but to American popular music in general, foreshadowing the treatment Presley, the Beatles, and to a lesser extent other artists have received. 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 00:51, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
Well mention it then! It'll probably be mentioned in the Kaplan book. I don't know anything about it but it does sound like it might be worth mentioning.Was it the 1944 one? I might have accidentally removed mention of it during the condensing.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:41, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
I've readded it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:17, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
Funny how RO was saying how wonderful the Kaplan book is and how crappy the Kelley book is. I'm reading the Kaplan book now and the quality of writing is actually better in the Kelley book. The Kaplan book is written a lot more subjectively.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:03, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, but it is a very high quality book. Kaplan is a good read but I can find very little from it to really help the article other than what has already been added. As the NY Times quote says on the cover of the book "it reads like a novel". Well that's fine for reading, but when you want to glean facts for an encyclopedia it is not!♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:12, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
I think I've replaced enough Kelley sources as it is.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:45, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
A question I have regarding the lead section is whether Sinatra's career was reborn because of his role in From Here to Eternity or because of his Academy Award win for the role. If it's the latter case, then the year would be 1954 since the ceremony happened that year. If it's the former, then it's 1953. But what exactly resulted in his career rebirth? Cheers, Katastasi and his talk page. 01:07, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
It was the hype/success of the film which relaunched his career, the Oscar was the real icing on the cake. His career had already been kickstarted in 1953 by the time he won the Oscar, and was performing at Sands and recording new material with Capitol.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:30, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
@ Gareth E Kegg: Are you happy with how comprehensive the article is now? I just have the Granata book to finish now which is very good on his musical side. What do you reckon on length for this? Knock off 1000 odd words? The problem is that it's very long by normal standards yet no part is very long really, perhaps 1946-1970s could be trimmed more though, but its the lot combined which bring it to that whopping length with a record breaking number of sources! It's 81kb readable prose, Reagan is 84, currently. Can we whip this into shape for FA. Do we really want to?♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:18, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
I'm being honest on this but I envisage too much trouble in getting it to FA for the 12th. I know that after the enormous effort which went into Carl Nielsen to get it there on the day the actual day itself was something of a killjoy. I'd rather just finish what I have to do here and move onto something else core which badly needs the work.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:23, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
Yup FA definitely off for Dec 12th. I've been told it would have to be nominated for TFA by Nov 20th at very latest. With the amount of peer reviewing this would need and reviewing at FAC, and a number of the regular reviewers being busy or inactive at the moment, not to mention the amount of effort would need it's not worth the rush. It'll get there sometime, the important thing is that this is largely written and is of reasonable quality and appears on the front page in any form on the date.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:35, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
Proposal at Wikipedia talk:Did you know.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:53, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
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a result of collaboration |
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Thanks in a box to all who participated in making this happen, - copy and style to your liking if you are not afraid of such a thing, -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 12:14, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Ol' Blue Eyes redirects here, but the article doesn't explain why. It is only mentioned as part of an album title. Ol' Blue Eyes Is Back says the album is "appropriately titled", but again, it doesn't explain why. — Kpalion (talk) 10:49, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Kind of obvious but I've now briefly mentioned it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:10, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
This article was the third most popular on Wikipedia according to the Top 25 Report with 727,017 views for the week December 6 to 12, 2015. Sinatra's 100th birthday was December 12. Congratulations to the editors of this article for the exposure of their work. SchreiberBike | ⌨ 23:56, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
I am surprised to see that sales of only 150 millions are claimed. I have been traveling in 42 countries of 5 continents for 55 years and anywhere FS was on the top list. In the last few years have seen quotes as high as 500-600m for him, that isn't surprising if we place Frankie Laine at 250 and Johnny Mathis at 300 (see Wiki).
Anybody has further info ? -- Paolobod ( talk) 07:42, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Agreed completely, I would have guessed at least 500 million myself, but you have to find a reliable source.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:14, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
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