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Thank you 203.118.120.247 whoever you are. Division of attention section has the best description of self-remembering I've read so far and I've studied this teaching for 11 years. DyslexicEditor 06:30, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
This article is really well written, however some work does need to be done to ensure that NPOV is maintained.
For example, the statement "This is not to take away from the remarkable process by which Gurdjieff amalgamated these teachings into a form at once coherent and cohesive unto itself." is laden with implicit evalutations.
-- Belfry 02:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
This is the only source I've seen that refuses to acknowledge the evolution of the Fourth Way through Gurdjieff's students. He gave Ouspensky permission to write about and teach the system.
G brought the system to the West from combining collection of sources in the East - Sufi, Hindu, etc. Who is to say that he brought it purely as he found it? I have great respect for the man and his works. Any while I've read the All and Everything series only twice, instead of the recommended three times, I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about the man and his teachings. Since the author of the page objects so strongly to any other point of view than his own, it seems a waste of time to try to edit his page.
But I just can't be silent about the obvious bias of the author. The entire article is not NPOV in that it rejects other followers of the fourth way system. -- Moon Rising 07:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
If you wish to expand this article using info from Gurdjieff and Ouspensky then go ahead. Aeuio 20:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Adding NPOV and citation tags without an explanation or signature (which I did yesterday) is no doubt due to a senior moment combined with fatigue. I evidently made this edit after I logged out, which I did knowing it was time for bed. Mea culpa. I think these tags are important because the article specifically states that "This is an article about the 'system' of G.I. Gurdjieff. For P.D. Ouspensky's book on the subject, see Fourth Way (book)." It appears you have added some material from Ouspensky, but it's hard to tell which is which -- G or O, particularly for someone who has not studied both, which is why I asked for citations.
Also, using "All and Everything", without reference to which book in the series and page numbers is a bit daunting for anyone wanting to verify source material. My copy of "Beelzebub" is 1238 pages long with no index, not to mention the other two boooks. If having a bibliography at the end is acceptable to WP for this article, then remove the tag - if you are absolutely certain it is sufficient.
You may want to review WP's info on "citing sources" which states, in part "All citation techniques require detailed full citations to be provided for each source used. They may be formatted by hand or using one of the citation templates. Full citations typically include: the name of the author, the title of the book or article, and the date of publication. Page numbers are essential whenever possible. The name of the publisher and its city is optional. The ISBN of a book is optional. Limiting this article to Gurdjieff and Ouspensky as the only sources of 4th Way knowledge also shows a bias. Though Gurdjieff brought the system to the West, many people accept other authors/reliable sources on the subject.
From your past comments here and in other Fourth Way related article discussions, you have made it clear that your opinion is different. Note: "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources). For guidance on how to make an article conform to the neutral point of view, see the NPOV tutorial; For examples and explanations that illustrate key aspects of this policy, see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/FAQ." Also, please refrain from personal attacks against me or other editors that imply current or former membership in any Fourth Way group. Unless you know me personally, which I don't think you do, you can only make assumptions. I don't appreciate your characterizations. Thank you for your consideration. Let us try to be the words we write about here, and try not to express negative emotions.-- Moon Rising 02:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
One more thought - I appreciate your offer for others to expand this article using G&O, and I plan to do that, when time allows, which I hope will be soon. I may also use some other published authors. Gurdjieff does not own the Fourth Way system nor the rights to use the name "Fourth Way".
I just realized that your bibliography links to more detailed information on in separate book articles. As a casual reader of this article, I would like to see all book titles and authors' names right on this page for ease of reference. I have a lap full of all 4 books (In Search and the 3 in the All and Everything series) and was about to edit the information, but, since you seem to have a special attachment to this article, I thought we could both think about what's best for the reader first, and edit later.-- Moon Rising 02:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Aeuio - I'm not sure why you reverted to an earlier description of the system. You agreed 2 months ago - see the beginning of this section - that it was okay to broaden the subject to fourth way system and not gurdjieff's system. I don't want to argue the whole thing again, just read the above.
Here is the response: "I think I know what you're saying. Those italic words are kind of a quick 'disambiguation' for users. Its not there to draw a distinction between O's and G's teachings. Its just there because when you say 'Fourth way' it could mean two things, and its a quick way to get to the one you're looking for, if you arrive at another. It could be a book or it could be a teaching. Although the book is about the teaching, the teaching isn't necessarily about the book. Yeago" That's basically what I said, but nevertheless I'll go and change it a bit for clarity. Aeuio 20:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Some editors say in whatever page they contribute in: "Let's not discuss this here." Then, they do what they want with other's contributions whenever they think the other one is tired. It is relatively "normal", so it does not really bother me. But, can they see that they are putting themselves so much above others, that they end up acting as judges?
Regards,
Baby Dove
03:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Aeuio, thank you for trying to fix the reference tags, but they still don't show up in a reference section, which is the problem I was having. You evidently deleted the section heading I put in for references. So the references don't show up. Unless you can fix this (I can't figure out how) we'll need to have the references appear in the text as they did originally. I think readers would like to see more reference tags throughout the article. I would.-- Moon Rising 18:39, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Dear Aeuio, If there are going to be two articles on the Fourth Way - one for Gurdjieff's teaching and one for those who came later, the title of each article needs to reflect this in both articles. There should also be a link on this page to the new article you created. But really, don't you think this alternative is stupid? You need to let go of your identification that the Fourth Way teaching is static, and only Gurdjieff's views are valid. There is just too much written about the Fourth Way. And yes, any moron can write a book about any subject, but it's not up to you, or any other editor in WP to decide which authors are morons. If you want to champion Gurdjieff (and reluctantly Ouspensky) as the only people that can write about the Fourth Way, then start a web page or a blog. This is Wikipedia and all points of view are acceptable, actually, they are encourage. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying this is the wrong approach for a WP article. Thank you. -- Moon Rising 18:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually the titles could be different: this one "The Fourth Way as described by Gurdjieff and Ouspensky" and the other one "Later Fourth Way teachings and theories." Or keep the titles and do something like the Fourth Way book where there is a sentence saying "This article is about Fourth Way as described by Gurdjieff and Ouspensky"... Otherwise we can continue our arguing.
Aeuio
20:15, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Gurdjieff certainly learnt this from someone else. The good thing about his ideas is that he did not invented them, so they are valuable. About "Meetings with Remarkable Men" he talks about what he learnt, I did not figure it out. Finally, I have looked for the term "Fourth Way" in Beezebub's, in Life is Real Only when I Am, in Meetings with Remarkable Men, and in the Herald of the Coming Good, and he does not use this word at all.
As I said, Mr. Ouspensky quotes him as his teacher, but it does not look like Gurdjieff has publicly used this name before. What is your source? Regards,
Baby Dove
20:49, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Dear Aeuio, Sorry I have not responded to some of the comments addressed to me above; I've been under the weather. First, I admit that the idea to create a second article was not too bright (stupid is the word I used) and I don't know why I suggested it. I think I may have had a fever at the time. It is probably confusing for the casual reader to have to hop back and forth to different pages for different fourth way ideas. I still have not found the link to that article, not because I didn't read through your post. I also don't see that we are arguing, rather discussing, different points of view. I do appreciate that you have broadened your page to allow Ouspensky's thoughts in. That is a good first step. I also want to compliment you on the large amount of time and energy you have put into this article to give readers a more through idea of the fourth way as taught by Gurdjieff. -- Moon Rising 21:03, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I removed the wl when mentioning Don Juan in Castaneda's teachings. Don Juan is the name Castaneda used for his teacher, and it has nothing to do with Zorrilla's Tenorio or Tirso's Don Juan, neither with the legendary character. Regards, Baby Dove 07:36, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
No, this time I just explained what I did; Idid not neven know who had put the link. Regards, Baby Dove 02:53, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
The word "astrology" was replaced by "planetary influences", not to give the false idea that Rodney Collin was what ordinary language calls an astrologer. Baby Dove 09:58, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
If something is not an official source, it can still be considered a reliable source. Even non-academic popular writers are considered reliable sources. At least in principle, they have done research and gone through some form of editorial oversight. Academic and scholarly sources may be considered superior, but that does not affect the status of a popular writer as a reliable source. Official references and primary sources are generally treated as accurate but subjective and biased.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Roman Catholic Church have not bestowed priesthood and authority upon most of the extreme number of authors who discuss those churches. However, those "outside" and "unofficial" writers are still considered reliable sources of verifiable information. Maintaining a neutral point of view requires including outside observations, material unsanctioned by the "official" group and similar secondary sources. For example, most of the Protestant churches are outside of Apostolic succession. That does not mean they cannot claim to be Christian, nor does it invalidate (from a NPOV) a claim to apostolic Christianity. If other sources contradict their claims, an editor would be free to include that additional information in the article.
Sources cannot be excluded because the authors are not properly sanctioned or fail to be in a proper line of succession. Groups are not granted exclusive claims over schools of thought. If a group or individual claims to advocate a particular religion or philosophy, they should be taken at face-value. If there are additional sources that reinforce or contradict such a claim, they should be used in the article. However, our personal biases regarding what is a "true" X should not be the standard for inclusion or exclusion of verifiable information. Vassyana 20:47, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually it's not absurd at all. Vassyana, pretend that I find a valid publish source from a student of a student of Rawat that wrote in his book "Prem Rawat's techniques have better results if done while eating, and not during mediation" and I want to add this into the article - what would happen (I want a simple answer of how or if it would be included.) Aeuio 20:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
It is convayed in a general sense, but I want a direct answer as what and how it would be written in the Rawat teaching article if I were to find a valid publish source from a student of a student of Rawat that claims in his book that "Prem Rawat's techniques have better results if done while eating, and not during mediation" - What would appear in the article? How would it be written? (Imagine you are adding it into the article and post it below) Aeuio 02:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
That's good, thanks Aeuio 19:56, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Aeuio, thank you for allowing links that you do not personally favor. I modified your entries of the various Gurdjieff Foundations as follows:
- I expect that you will disagree with some or all of these changes, but I sincerely believe that they make the article less biased, while still preserving much of your point of view about Gurdjieff.-- Moon Rising 01:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
What is going on with the edit/reversions of the external links at the moment? I don't want to initiate 3rd reversion w/out context. Mr. Bene 16:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
NOTE: I removed a user's real name as requested from this discussion. It seemed user Aeuio is not recently contributing, and has a disabled talk page, so I couldn't ask permission first. But the page history will show the redacted name if needed. - Owlmonkey ( talk) 19:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
The article has two succesive items: the Gurdjieff Foundations, which describes the origin of these foundations when Gurdjieff was close to die, and they evolution in an "International Association", and Fake Schools, which describes the existence of many schools leading nowhere but making the students believe they are going somewhere.
This is the best example of promotion I have ever found in my entire life! It is suggesting, "If you are not in the Gurdjieff Foundation, do not even try to do this work, because the Foundation is the only one who knows how to teach you."
Of course, it appeals to faith in the reader, because he cannot know whether this is true or not. Even when Gurdjieff organized these foundations, he was unable to know how would they evolve through the years. As stated by Ouspensky, only a conscious teacher can help others awaken. Does the Gurdjieff Foundation have a conscious being behind, or it is only a place where sleeping people they talk about how wonderful it was to have Mr. Gurdjieff as a teacher while trying to understand by themselves how to do it?
Just asking, because after 58 years, many things could have changed. For instance, within Christianity, after their origin within the Hebrews, Paul was one of the leading figures by
58 AD, and he was even imprisoned by the Romans as such. Regards,
Baby Dove
16:43, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
And who guarantees that the Foundations have never deviated from his teachings after 58 years? Regards, Baby Dove 18:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I did not want to start a debate on the validity of schools. I simply wanted to point out that the article as it was when I started this item in a talk page, shows a bias against all other organizations. Then, Moonrising has added another link, and I can see others coming, deviating from the simple description of a religious method.
From a viewpoint, the Fourth Way and the schools teaching it are hard to see as a separate thing, such as a richer view of Christianity is allowed when considering the multiple existing churches with different creeds.
However, to avoid any possible editing war in the page, maybe references should be kept as short and NPOV as possible, or simply being replaced by suitable links for the reader to get informed about their differences. Regards,
Baby Dove
21:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
When a "citation needed" tag was set in the section about William Patrick Patterson (not Paterson, as it says in the header), it was supposed to make note that his quality as having Lord Pentland as a primary teacher was not proved. Then, the old tag was replaced by an external link to the Gurdjieff Studies Program, a web site from an organization of which the said person is the founder and current director. This is not exactly a link giving a required NPOV, because now it is obviously himself who is giving this information.
He is also promoting his own business through the article, given that through the new link one can learn about his four seminars (at this point, the next one, to be held in New Jersey is costing $500), besides the promotion of his books, which can be conveniently bought on-line through a convenient link to
Gurdjieff Legacy Bookstore.
I know nothing of him, so I asked for a source, but the source seems to be himself, which is only a personal statement. Regards, Baby Dove 06:33, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
To clarify something Aeiuo, Patterson has not been connected with Pentland or Pentland's students for a very long time. He is not someone who is considered in the line of transmission of the Foundations; I'm not implying anything there about his worth, just the fact that he left, but retains some contacts. Also, I think this section swallows Patterson's rhetoric whole a bit. How about keeping the second paragraph and just the first sentence of the first, changing tense to past? Ericbarnhill 02:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I thought you really respected Mr. Patterson, and I was thinking it was not worth discrediting him... But you simply obbeyed a command! And you were talking about puppets... Regards, Baby Dove 21:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I have added the appropriate ext lk showing howb Patterson promotesd his own teaching selling books and seminars in his Gurdjieff Studies Program site. Please, do not delete them as usual without written justification here, as WP rules establish. Regards, Baby Dove 07:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Good to agree at last. Regards, Baby Dove 00:00, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Last week I moved Transmission before Fake Schools, because both things refer to a different subject. Transmission refers to the possibility that a given school ceases to be real when the conscious founder dies. Fake schools refer to the possibility that a school is not real because of not having a conscious teacher. In both cases, however, we cannot judge the situation beforehand.
I also wanted to point out that my move was reverted without any explanation, not even as an edit summary. This forces one to check the entire article every time, which is more work. It should be remembered that it is a Wilkipedia policy to leave an edit summary. It says, "An edit summary should strive to answer the question, "Why did you make this edit?". Providing an edit summary, even if the edit is minor, makes Wikipedia work better by quickly explaining to other users what your change was about."
Edit_summary Regards,
Baby Dove
17:56, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
The Foundations were started AFTER Gurdjieff's death by Jeanne de Salzmann in the 1950's: Source: Gurdjieff Org. They were not established by Gurdjieff near the end of his life. Bennett writes in Witness (page 254) of Gurdjieff APPOINTING REPRESENTATIVES: "Letter January 13th, 1949", dictated by Gurdjieff to Bennett in Child's in N.Y.: "I need three representatives for France, England and America." He named Bennett for England, Lord Pentland for America and R. Zuber for France. To Wim Nyland he said: "For you I have special task". (see I. Popoff)
Wim Nyland was, after Jeanne de Salzmann, Gurdjieff's closest pupil, appointed "for a special task" by Gurdjieff in the USA. His name is not even mentioned.
Missing: Bennett visited Gurdjieff in his Institute for the Harmonious Development of Man at the Château Le Prieuré in the summer of 1923, spending three months at the institute. The part about Ouspensky repudiating Bennett is unimportant, Ouspenky left Gurdjieff long before and repudiated Gurdjieff. Same goes for subjective interpretations of how Bennett felt at that time. He visited Gurdjieff in 1947/48 for 18 months nearly every weekend and stayed in Paris for 1 month. He founded fourth way schools in Sherborne, UK, and Claymont, W.Virginia, USA.
completly missing
completly missing
completly missing
The latter four are much more important than W.P. Patterson or J. Moore.
Lord Pentland was not appointed by Gurdjieff "to lead" the work in North and South America .
Lord Pentland was appointed by Gurdjieff as his representative to publish Beelzebub's Tales to his Grandson in USA. (see sources given in 1. The Foundations)
The notion: The man chosen by Gurdjieff to lead the work in America comes from W.P. Patterson . Patterson worked with Pentland, but left the Foundation and gives workshops. Patterson has done some good work by pointing out the dangers of pseudo schools. Nevertheless his writings are very much coloured by his personal likes and dislikes and miss an objective approach. He also uses his connection to Pentland, as if Pentland gave approval to Patterson's teaching.
'As some here rightly point at "advertising": The notion of Pentland being appointed by Gurdjieff to lead the work in America is similar clannish pride, and wrong.'
Some information can be found here:
Changes in G. I. Gurdjieff’s Teaching ‘The Work’:
However, Gurdjieff also provoked change. If we look at what happened after his death, we can see that although he had united the groups of American and British pupils in Paris after World War Two, he chose not to form a secure line of succession. At the same time he suggested to various pupils that they were the only ones who could carry out his teaching after his death and this was a provocation to schism. (James Moore, Gurdjieff: the Anatomy of a Myth. London: Element, 1991, p. 288.)
There is no doubt about the unique role of Lord Pentland as president of the New York Foundation.
But the efforts of some to lift/boost him onto some kind of throne as Gurdjieff's chosen successor leaves an elevated/declamatory taste.
Iramsamkeep 09:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Let me put an end to this: Iramsamkeep - three sources (gurdjieff.org/James Moore/Spice article) which you provided which say that Pentland was chosen to lead the publishing, all also say that Pentland was chosen to lead the Work in America (the spice article says that those were Gurdjieff's words on his deathbed). You then said that these sources are unreliable(which you provided) and came here and are still continuing to use the same sources for your argument? I am not sure how you justify this to yourself. Anyhow: Do you have a source which say that all of these sources are wrong and that they are twisting the truth? Otherwise all you did was prove that Pentland was also chosen for the publishing - but not that this has been misrepresented as Pentland being chosen to lead the work. That's your original research...and I am not sure why this is even a big deal. + there are other sources which affirm that Pentland was given authority by Gurdjieff for North America. Aeuio 17:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
The quoted book ("Life is Real..."), at least in the mentioned First Talk, does not contain any reference to the term "self-remembering", therefore, it whas been removed. Sekmeth 05:58, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
The very mention of Fake Schools within the article meets some relativity in Mr. Gurdjieff himself. He says that "it is (of) no use troubling oneself how to recognize a wrong way." He immediately warns the reader to "think of how to find the right way", but, as it is said in this same chapter 10 of "In Search of the Miraculous", meeting a wrong teacher is due to having a wrong kind of magnetic center, which makes mentioning this subject quite useless for the general reader. Besides, the fragmentary information given, makes it definitely far from being a NPOV. Sekmeth 06:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
The word "schools" is mentioned three times in "Life is Real..." One in "I would begin at once to organize with the help of people who had already reached in these sections a definite degree, as it was called in all previously existing esoteric schools, of 'being and comprehension'." (First talk), and the second and third times in "... according to the interpretation of initiates of one school existing presently in Central Asia...", and in "I said 'simple' because in various serious schools, existing even in present times, for the self-perfecting of man, there are for the same purpose very complicated exercises." (Both in the Third Talk).
Gurdjieff never mentions in this book, the existence of any fake school, and his references talk about previously or currently existing (for him) schools. Though Ouspensky quotes him at saying that, for a wrong magnetic center, there exists the possibility of meeting a teacher who would mislead him, the three examples he gives are: "He may be genuinely mistaken and think that he knows something, when in reality he knows nothing", instead of "Honestly believes that he knows something, when in fact he doesn't"; "He may believe another man, who in his turn may be mistaken", instead of "He maybe believes another man who is mistaken", and "He may deceive consciously", instead of "He is purposely tricking others."
This three inexact quotes were corrected, because it is good to quote what the quoted one says, not our not declared personal opinions. About the cases added at the end, they show he was referring to very specific cases of the groups he met, not to a general notion of potential "Fake Schools." And in Ouspenskly's quote there is much more, such as separating the idea of right and wrong magnetic centers (he never says a right magnetic center can give bad results, for instance).
Thus, badly written quotations plus ommitted information make a biased POV, for me. Sekmeth 04:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Overall this is a very good and complete article that keeps improving. I fail to understand though, why there is information about teachers/followers of the fourth way that had no direct contact with G or O. They are third had teachers. Like someone has commented often in removing links to other Fourth Way groups, there are countless groups and teachers out there. It does not make sense IMHO to list 3 and omit the rest. It would make more sense to list the women in Patterson's "Women of the Rope" who had close relationships with Gurdjieff, than to include information about Patterson, a biographer, who now has a group based on Gurdjieff, but also adding his own twist. This is not an aspersion against Patterson. It is just an idea of how the page should go. I'd add info about Heap and the rest, but I can't find the book right now. They are more interesting and related to the page, by far. -- Moon Rising 02:32, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I hope you guys realize that Moon Rising is using excuses as she's trying to remove Alex Horn from the page because Horn was Robert Burtons teacher, and she doesn't like anyone to find out what exacly is the truth behing the fof. Moon, how do you justify to yourself the removal of any info on your teacher's teacher (same goes for the vdeos you are trying to remove where RB is lecturing). If you don't want the ruth to be known and don't like it, maybe you should ask yourself why exactly you think that the fof is so great. Oldmethod 18:08, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
The only references to Alex horn quoted in the article, come from William Patrick Patterson (Gurdjieff Journal & Talking with the Left Hand). It is hard to get any NPOV about him, because if one goes through internet looking for some info about him, one only finds what Patterson says, and what Rick Ross says (sometimes amazingly similar). It seems that he does not care to be known at all, and the only one interested in talking about him is Mr. Patterson, who consistently disqualyfies any one he does not like, as the Inquisition used to in the middle ages. That is why it should be deleted. Regards, Baby Dove 16:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Alexander Horn does not seem to care about what you say. The only ones concerned with him are Patterson and Rick Ross. Both upon economicar reasons, as far as ity can be seen in their websites. I am very sorry if you think a true fourth way teacher cannot say what he is. Guredjieff advertised, as I have once shown you in the Daily News, and as Ouspensky says in In Search of the Miraculous, where he talks about the ad in this Russian Paper, the Voice of Moscow, I guess. But afterwards, they belonged to a world dramatically full of agents spying everybody's lives, such as the KGB or the Gestapo. This is a good reason to make one cease advertising at all whatever one can do in private. The world should honor them for these notorious efforts, and not repeat what they did as parrots when times have changed, assuming that this is the only way to do things. Regards, Baby Dove 21:35, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone else noticed that there is a dearth of references for this article. While it's mostly a good article, the lack of citation make it seem like original research. Is there anyone out there who can add some references? -- Moon Rising 01:29, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence of the Intro is contradictory. It says, in part, G described his approach to self-development as a Fourth Way....The next sentence says G never used the term Fourth Way in his writings. Does anyone else find this potentially confusing to someone who is not well versed in O's writing about G? Anyone mind if I try to clarify this?-- Moon Rising 19:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Aeuio - I saw your edit after my suggestion above. I just took a bold leap and pretty much re-wrote the first paragraph. I think it is more clear and easier to read, but that's just my opinion. I think the intro still needs improvement. I think this is a step in the right direction. Feel free to edit it further or revert if you prefer the way it was before. -- Moon Rising 03:48, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I propose that a section be added. This section would address Gurdjieff's chief aim in establishing his system - that is, the preservation of the earth. I don't think I'm qualified to write it, as it would require research, and I don't want to take time away from other editing duties I've committed to. But I wondered if somebody here was knowledgeable enough to write something "off the top of his head." Or her head! Whichever. I do feel it's important, as it is the true basis of his work. Thank you. Jennifer Thieme 19:26, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
There are some very serious problems with this article. I don't mean to overly criticize the editor(s), because I realize the definitive sources of information are oral or written in an esoteric form and not accessible to those who are not personally involved with a Gurdjieff group, and so would fall under the category of original research. However, because of the great many books on the topic, there is a possibility of an article from an anthropological/historical perspective. This is a daunting task as most of the texts are contradictory and rely on original research or hearsay themselves. I propose that until the article approaches a strong wikipedia level of quality, that only the books that Gurdjieff authorized in his lifetime be used: Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson by G.I. Gurdjieff and In Search of the Miraculous by P.D. Ouspensky. If this seems too stringent, then at least limit all contributions to that which can cite a published written source available to the general public (other than a website). I also propose that the article be renamed or separated into several articles. for example "Teachings of G.I. Gurdjieff", "Teachings of P.D. Ouspensky", "Other Fourth Way Teachings", etc. Ouspensky rejected Gurdjieff's teachings after only spending a short time studying them, and there are many teachers/groups who refer to themselves as "Fourth Way" who have no connection with either Gurdjieff or Ouspensky. Please don't take this as nasty criticism, I have been engaged in anthropological fieldwork with Gurdjieff Groups throughout the United States and studying the printed material for several decades and still cannot say with certainty what is definitive. But that does not mean it isn't possible to at least map the several strains of the teaching. It is a rare opportunity to record a religious tradition in its infancy and it would be a shame to squander it over petty squabbles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.30.177.60 ( talk) 19:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
The description of self-observation on this page is not even close to being complete. It does not, for example, include the work of attempting to observe the differences between the various centers, which is explained in some detail in "In Search of the Miraculous." That is why I added a link to a first-hand article on Gurdjieff and Self-Observation (originally published in Gnosis Magazine) that goes more deeply into this important subject, and the only one I could find that describes this process in detail. It was deleted today. The article that was linked to is referenced (linked to) on a number of Gurdjieff and other sites, including http://www.danzasdegurdjieff.com/auto-e.htm and http://www.dennislewis.org/self-observation.htm (Lewis is the author). Doesn't matter to me which site you link to but the article, written by someone who actually describes some of the issues surrounding self-observation, should be included in some way to give a more complete picture of self-observation. In any case, I preferred to include it as an external link. If you don't think it fits, that's fine, but something needs to be done about the section on self-observation, which doesn't really say anything at all about what Gurdjieff was actually teaching and could be interpreted in a very psychological way. Desertview ( talk) 04:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Per your suggestion, I have slightly expanded that section and added the link there. I left Lewis' name out of the paragraph itself and included it in the reference. If you would like to handle some other way, please just make the change. Thanks. Desertview ( talk) 17:51, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Owlmonkey, someone removed the change you approved, but I can find no statement as to why it was done. Can this please be reverted, or can someone say why that was done? Desertview ( talk) 04:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Actually, as I remember, I only added that link to the article on self-observation to one other place where I thought it may be helpful, but I understand better now about adding external links. In any case, the original statement about self-observation was incomplete. There is a great deal of importance in the Gurdjieff Work regarding differentiating between thoughts, feelings, and sensations in oneself (Ouspensky, quoting Gurdjieff, goes into it deeply). Some of the later stuff in the article referenced touches on some other awareness-oriented areas, but this article has been widely disseminated and linked to among Gurdjieff/Fourth Way oriented sites. So I believe it is appropriate. Desertview ( talk) 05:51, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
One of the glaring omissions of Gurdjieff's teachings is the issue of karma. Like many similar burning lights which popped up in the 20th Century (cult leaders, et al.), he was (and advocated) a sort of "lone wolf" approach. Of course, like the rest, he was and remains that lone wolf, for the most part. While such a philosophy is in accord with era's-gone-by when the amount of territory to explore (literally and symbolically) seemed unending, it is inappropriate or at least inapplicable in the global era of the 21st Century. Perhaps not stated by him, though nonetheless implied, one cannot endlessly run from the past, which is one's heritage. Perhaps the best way to understand him then, like the rest, is within the context of Mankind's quest through the ages, seeking and coming to a synthesis of "Man's relationship to himself", a precursor for a new global era. Compare also to the Tree of Knowledge and Law of the Eternal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.170.123.191 ( talk) 20:35, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
I've changed several butts to "Gurdjieff taught" to "the Fourth Way teaches." I did this for 2 reasons: for readability - a little variety makes the article more readable. And more importantly, because many people are also interested in the fourth way as it was presented by Ouspensky. Gurdjieff authorized Ouspensky to teach, and Ouspensky's works and methods are valid, at least to some readers. I believe that the article is also for those unfamiliar with the ideas, and a complete discussion of the subject goes b eyond Gurdjieff. It should not read (imho) as a chapter in the article about G. -- Moon Rising ( talk) 15:16, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
The intro says, G never said 4th way. But later on the article says [or rather, it used to before I removed it] Gurdjieff stressed each individual's responsibility: "The fourth way differs from the other ways in that.... But that para has no source. So... did he say it, or not? William M. Connolley ( talk) 20:26, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
While searching for The WP:TRUTH I came across http://www.progressiveears.com/frippbook/ch07.htm which demonstrably pre-dates our article (see http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.progressiveears.com/frippbook/ch07.htm).
A whole pile of stuff turned up in one edit [1] ages ago described as Total re-write - original content moved to Fourth Way (book) William M. Connolley ( talk) 20:33, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Rm some: [2] William M. Connolley ( talk) 20:44, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Like it says (cos I added it): cn. Who says so? William M. Connolley ( talk) 20:02, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm going to start cleaning up the references. We need to focus on reliable secondary sources.-- Nowa ( talk) 00:37, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
I've moved these references here from the lede for the following reasons:
The next step is to find reliable secondary references to support the lede.
Here's an example: [8]
After we get 2 -3 more, we can rewrite the lede.-- Nowa ( talk) 06:33, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
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