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this is a good article with nice NPOV and coverage. i'm leaving a note here to remind myself to review it more thoroughly later and consider
WP:B?, perhaps when i am more comfortable assessing for B-class. if someone else would like to do it in the meantime though, i think it at least meets some of the critera. ~
Boomur [
☎]
20:50, 10 November 2013 (UTC)reply
Requested move
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Oppose: This is the only song titled, "Forbidden Fruit" that currently has a Wikipedia article. Maybe that can change, but at this point this should be the correct title.
WP:NATURAL applies. A hatnote can easily be used to point to the Nina Simone song. STATicmessage me!06:08, 28 November 2013 (UTC)reply
Again, why is the fact that this is the only song titled, "Forbidden Fruit" that currently has a Wikipedia article relevant? See
Hurricane. The hatnote would have to point to the Nine Simone song, "Forbidden Fruit", a song by Roy Harper from his 1974 album Valentine, "Forbidden Fruit", a song by The Band from their 1975 album Northern Lights - Southern Cross, "Forbidden Fruit", a song by The Blow Monkeys from their 1986 album Animal Magic, "Forbidden Fruit", a song by The Pursuit of Happiness from their 1990 album One Sided Story, "Forbidden Fruit", a song by Jessica Simpson from her 2003 album In This Skin, "Forbidden Fruit", a song by Paul van Dyk from his 1996 album Seven Ways. What we'd use would be pointing to the disambiguation list.
In ictu oculi (
talk)
23:44, 28 November 2013 (UTC)reply
All that looks like to me is a bunch of album tracks that happen to have the same name of this song, yet the large majority are not notable enough for their own separate article as this one. Also at this point the most likely search term and
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC would be the 2013 single and not random album tracks from albums throughout the years. As I said, there would be an argument if a single other one of the songs had a Wikipedia article, but that is not the case here. STATicmessage me!00:05, 29 November 2013 (UTC)reply
Support: As stated at
WP:DAB, what matters is what topics are covered on Wikipedia (either as the main topic covered by an article or as an additional topic covered within another article), not whether a topic is the main subject of a separate article. Moreover, per
WP:NCM /
WP:SONGDAB, the names of artists should be included in the titles of articles about their songs and albums – at least when multiple songs/albums exist for a name. That makes the titles more clear and recognizable, and avoids future maintenance headaches over whether to consider some particular song or album as primary. Including the name of the artist is helpful to readers, the popularity of music is volatile, and new releases often appear with the same names (or strings of lyrics that might be mistaken for a name). —
BarrelProof (
talk)
18:50, 28 November 2013 (UTC)reply
Oppose per Static. I'm extremely skeptical of primary topic claims for topics that don't even have their own article. --
BDD (
talk)
17:32, 29 November 2013 (UTC)reply
User:Koala15,
User:BDD, the point being which is a more reliable guide to what is notable; Do authors of printed books decide what is notable, or do volunteers here at Wikipedia creating articles decide what is notable?
For example if I decide to make an article on
DJ Cream and I make it on the Cambodian rapper rather than the French one (or vice versa) does my decision to create one stub rather than another confer more notability on the Cambodian DJ Cream than the French DJ Cream. Am I self-deciding, following my own tail in creating and bestowing notability?
In ictu oculi (
talk)
11:49, 2 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Forbidden Fruit (Nina Simone song) = mainly album but also song, "All Music Guide to Jazz: The Definitive Guide to Jazz Music 2002 "The highlights arc when she steps out of the soulful supper club style into more earthier settings, as on "House of the Rising Sun," "Forbidden Fruit," "Gin House Blues," "Work Song," and her own "Children Go Where I Send You""
If anything fails WP:GNG it is the (J. Cole song) but that would be unfair because 2013 sources are not uploaded into Google books yet. It may eventually get as many refs as the Nina Simone song, J.Cole will never come anywhere close to the Noel Coward song.
In ictu oculi (
talk)
10:36, 2 December 2013 (UTC)reply
I mean you are new, hence I'm ignoring your "
WP:COI" to me - you did well as a new user to find that in fact. The only conflict here could be resolved by everyone reading the first paragraph of
WP:Disambiguation before participating in RMs about disambiguation. We shouldn't even be having these discussions, these kind of moves should be automatic.
In ictu oculi (
talk)
00:31, 3 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Using Google Books as the only reference to what pages should be titled is ridiculous. Especially when 90% of the references are trivial and just in passing, not in depth coverage of the songs, not to mention the numerous false positives. Obviously the J. Cole song, holds the clear majority in coverage in online
reliable sources. For you to claim that the song is not notable is also ridiculous, as it clearly passes
WP:GNG and
WP:NSONGS. And I agree with the above posters that you have some
POV and
WP:COI issues. And obviously it is good we had this discussion and it was not automatic, because it is clear that the consensus is against your opinion.STATicmessage me!04:46, 3 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Support. per
WP:SONGDAB which is from
WP:AT, a policy. Music specifically and deliberately ignores primarytopic and it is easy to see why here. We have a classic songwriter (Coward) and a classic singer (Simone) being even considered as lesser than a this year released song. Both the other songs were released pre-internet and still get some significant coverage. Thinking more about "primarytopic" does anybody really think one of the several songs mentioned and called "Forbidden Fruit" is a contender for significant long-term primary topic? No. Of course not.--
Richhoncho (
talk)
18:04, 3 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Relax everyone. Obviously the move is going to be made and must be made now since
Forbidden Fruit (Noël Coward song) now exists and is going to continue to exist. The only possible argument for not making the move now would be that the J. Cole tune is the
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC which is self-evidently not true.
What's going on is this: the way our naming conventions have shaken out, we use minimum disambiguation for songs. Not for everything, but definitely for songs. So the first article for a given song title is named either
Song Name, or, if there's already an article
Song Name but it's not about a song, then
Song Name (song). That's the tradition. Whether it's written down in rule I don't know, but if you don't do it that way someone will move it to be that way, so written or not its the de facto rule.
If you want to write another article about a different song named "Song Name", you have to do these three steps in the correct order:
Create your article first, under
Song Name (Somebody New song). (It can be a one-sentence stub at first if you want.)
Rewrite the resulting redirect (
Song Name or
Song Name (song)) to be a disambiguation page pointing to both songs.
(That's assuming that neither song is the
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, which is very likely true: if a song it notable enough to have an article, it's pretty unlikely that another song could be so very much more notable that it'd be the primary topic. If the original article is the primary topic, omit steps 2 and 3 and add a hatnote in the original article; if your new article is the primary topic, step 3 is to file a
WP:Requested Move to have your new article moved over on top of the existing redirect (at (
Song Name or
Song Name (song)), then add a hatnote pointing to the non-primary song.)
Editors need to follow this rule and do things in the right order. Not following this rule is what's led to the current kerfluffle and resulting hurt feelings and waste of time. Just relax. It's possibly a silly rule (that we use minimum disambiguation for songs), although there are good reasons to do it too, but at any rate it's the operative rule. If people want to change it they can take it up with an RfC at
WP:Article Titles or wherever this stuff is laid out.
Herostratus (
talk)
07:13, 4 December 2013 (UTC)reply
When I performed the page move, I was not aware of this move request, but I knew that the
Noel Coward song of the same name had a Wikipedia article. It did not even occur to me that the move might be controversial, because it is so obvious that the J. Cole song is not the primary topic. Sorry for the confusion. --
Ssilvers (
talk)
21:15, 4 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Support, it's now just a technical move and has to be made, misunderstandings due to doing things in the wrong order is the only reason this was ever contested.
Herostratus (
talk)
01:20, 5 December 2013 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
GA Review
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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