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BetacommandBot08:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)reply
Consistency
The article sometime refers to the marque as Facel, sometimes as Facel Vega? Which is correct? It should be consistent. My impression is that Facel is the marque while Facel Vega is a range of models.
Egil (
talk)
07:32, 3 September 2011 (UTC)reply
I believe the marque is called Facel Vega. That is at least the name that is used in sale brochures from the time. See here for reference:
http://www.facel-vega.com/fv6.shtml The car clubs for the marque also appears to be using the Facel Vega name. Reference:
http://www.facelvegacarclub.co.uk/ - 18:00, 21 June 2012. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
62.16.159.245 (
talk)
Facel III
So was the "Facel III" the third version of the big Facel or was it some kind of smaller Facellia ? The current narrative is ambiguous. It seems implausible that you would put a 1.8 litre Volvo engine into the two tonne luxury car.
Eregli bob (
talk)
15:57, 22 July 2012 (UTC)reply
The Facellia and the Facel III (three) is the same car, the only difference being the volvo power plant. The Facel II (two) however is a large, full scale luxury coupe.
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: moved. The consensus is that the scope of this article should be solely the automobile division.
Jenks24 (
talk)
02:25, 8 September 2015 (UTC)reply
Support clear evidence that 'Facel' is not used on its own (the Facel III you link to even has 'FV' as its 'joke' number). The lead will need to be altered to reflect the change, and 'Facel' be a redirct.
Pincrete (
talk)
11:20, 23 August 2015 (UTC)reply
Eddaido, just to be sure, the proposal is
Facel to
Facel Vega, the 'car' division, which is the subject of the article. Facel S A doesn't currently have an article, though it is (confusingly and inconsistently) mentioned in several 'car model' articles.
Pincrete (
talk)
16:41, 23 August 2015 (UTC)reply
Facel Vega is the brand or marque name not the manufacturer. It was always called Facel (with a brief interim Facel-Metallon). Except in wartime (when I suppose it made similar bits but for aircraft) Facel's business was always cars / car components. A rough British equivalent is
Pressed Steel. There are individual articles about (most) of the cars, wait a bit and the range should become complete. You'd like to Move Ford to Ford Zephyr? (same period as the Facel cars) because it seems to me that would be the same thing. (The French article (it tells the reader) is about the marque not the manufacturer). I have taken the liberty of rewriting the lead in case it is easier to follow. Hmmm I might be wrong there - nevertheless . . .
Eddaido (
talk)
03:47, 24 August 2015 (UTC)reply
I see it the other way around. Yes, Facel Vega was indeed an automotive marque/division of Facel SA, and it's what this page has always been about. Now you're making steps towards turning it into a broader scope article about Facel SA; it's quite lacking under that respect, because the company's only covered in its automotive activities, that is as long as it was instrumental to Facel Vega. Facel was founded to manufacture aircraft components before the war, and that it continued to do—proof is in the end it was acquired by Sud-Aviation, as you added to the lead section. Facel Vega was only a small part of Facel SA, but surely and by far its most notable one. Though it lacked Facel's background in the automotive field, I see Lamborghini as a closer analogy rather than with an all-out automotive supplier like Pressed Steel, in that its automobile division was born almost as a divertissement for a passionate enterpreneur. —
Cloverleaf II (
talk)
07:21, 24 August 2015 (UTC)reply
You are giving me new information about "other activities", Please tell me where it is from. Remember all the Facel Vega cars have (or are intended to have) separate articles, this one is about the manufacturer. The references please for the other activities. Cheers,
Eddaido (
talk)
07:51, 24 August 2015 (UTC)reply
Of course if you ignore the non-automotive activities (kitchen sinks?) Facel SA was 100% an automotive supplier. None of this is discussed in the article anyway, because it is about the Facel Vega French marque of GT cars. Or at least it was before you edited the lead section according to your objection a few hours ago, effectively changing the scope of the first half of the page. Seems like we don't even agree on what the content itself should be about. —
Cloverleaf II (
talk)
13:08, 24 August 2015 (UTC)reply
At the risk of sounding like a broken record please tell me where I learn about these kitchen sinks and other non-automotive products. Thanks,
Eddaido (
talk)
05:25, 25 August 2015 (UTC)reply
As I understand matters, Facel S A was the parent company, what it produced is irrelevant since the article only mentions the parent in passing. All the 'finished' cars were sold under the 'Vega' label, even the III, though 'Vega' is also the name of a specific marque. 'Facel' is not used on its own and is ambiguous as to whether it is the parent or 'finished vehicle' division. The article is not about the parent, which may warrant an article of its own. ps The modified lead reads like 'an orphaned' reference to 'S A', a rename is in order EITHER to 'S A', with expanded content or to 'Vega' and restrict to cars.Pincrete (
talk)
07:24, 25 August 2015 (UTC)reply
The kitchen sinks?
SA is (roughly) the French equivalent of Limited and completes the name of the legal entity. It is correct that the name of the article is that of the manufacturer and in the top right hand corner the infobox is about that business. Obviously you did not create the article, its name or the infobox and nor did I.
All the luxury cars it made have separate individual articles with (obviously temporary) exceptions. It makes sense that the (underdeveloped) article about the manufacturer gives an overview of all the products. For the moment the overview is limited to the luxury cars (why I say underdeveloped).
I am referring to the article as it stood when you initiated the move. If you want an umbrella article about the luxury cars which were very well-known I think you should create one. However this article is about the manufacturer and not about its luxury cars which are dealt with by their own individual articles.
There would be real value in researching and writing articles about the Facellia, Facel III and Facel 6. And perhaps finding out if they are really Facel Vega 6 etc.
The kitchen sinks are in the PDF I linked in my proposal above.
OK. Perhaps you are muddling kitchen sinks with kitchen cupboards? Pressed Steel made kitchen cupboard units too. They were refrigerated and sold under the name Prestcold. Something lost in translation perhaps.
As I wrote before, this article was never about Facel SA. It was originally titled Facel Vega and it was an "umbrella" article about the luxury cars as you put it. Then someone moved it to Facel in 2011, I proposed to move it back, and you came by and singlehandedly decided it was about the parent company. How about making a standalone
Facel SA article instead?
(cur | prev) 16:20, 1 September 2011 Egil (moved Facel Vega to Facel over redirect: The article is about the manufacturer Facel, although the model Vega is also mentioned)
2011 to 2015 is four years during which it has been about the manufacturer and it was the correction of a mistake Even if there was logic in your other arguments and there isn't . . .
The cars you named were the Facel Vega Facellia, Facel Vega Facel III and Facel Vega Facel 6. They were badged Facel Vega - Paris, and sold by Automobiles Facel Vega - Paris. As you can read in any official brochure, one of which is linked in my proposal above. Several others can be found on the same website.
A marque which made multiple distinct models over a decade is more than deserving its own article. I can't see what good will come by confusing it with its parent company and Facel-bodied Fords. —
Cloverleaf II (
talk)
11:45, 25 August 2015 (UTC)reply
Its that Ford Zephyr thing again isn't it. Then start its own special page for the "marque"
Eddaido, not all finished vehicles made by Ford were called Zephyr, so silly argument. The two of you aren't arguing about the name, you are arguing about the content, at present it IS about car manufacture (not car bits or anything else). Eddaido, you are putting unsourced material in the lead which isn't in the article (very, very bad idea). It is clear from the history
eg 2011, and
as far back as 2002 that the article always has been about the luzury car division. If you want to change the scope of the article, don't muddle it with a renaming discussion.
Pincrete (
talk)
18:37, 25 August 2015 (UTC)reply
Since the article is almost entirely about Facel Vega the automotive manufacturer, I feel that a rename is in order. And then we create a separate Facel S.A. entry, and all of this wasted energy here can be channeled towards populating that entry with kitchen sinks and whathaveyous. Meanwhile, this lovely
period Facel 6 advertisement is pretty unequivocal about who built it. Cheers, Mr.choppers | ✎ 03:33, 2 September 2015 (UTC)reply
Hi Mr Choppers. Would you remember that years ago there was a marque / brand name Mercedes Benz? (Maybe there still is) Its machines were made by a crowd called Daimler-Benz and many WP editors must have spent fruitless hours looking for a Mercedes Benz manufacturer, reminds me of Panhard ;)) Cheers,
Eddaido (
talk)
03:48, 2 September 2015 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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