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There is already some discussion about this on Talk:First Crusade. This article originally said It means "God wills it" in Lingua Franca, an international language (similar to some degree to the modern Interlingua) of Western Europe. "Deus" is Latin for God. "Lo" is Italian for "it." "Volt" is third person singular for the Medieval French verb Voler - to will, wish, desire, want. That's pretty strange, to say the least.
The phrase appears variously as deus vult, dieu le veut, deus lo volt, etc etc...and even though every book about the crusades mentions it in one form or another, no one ever says where it comes from. It might be bordering on original research to try to figure it out, but I think it is impossible to claim it was "deus lo volt" or anything else in the vernacular. The only sources for it (that I can find so far) are in Latin, and only Robert the Monk seems to mention it at all. The Pope and the audience were probably not speaking Latin, nor were the crusaders on the crusade itself, but we don't really know what they would have said or how they would have spelled it in their own languages (11th century forms of French, Occitan, and Italian were hardly standardized). Adam Bishop 22:02, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
"...The war to which they are called is a Holy War and Deus volt is the fitting battle-cry..." - quoted in
J.F.C. Fuller's "A Military History of the Western World," with a footnote of "There are various versions of this appeal: the original version has not come down to us. On this question see D. Munro's 'Speech of Pope Urban II at Clermont, 1095', in The American Historical Review (1906), XI, pp.231-242"
Fuller's book was published in 1954 and I'm not sure how to acquire a source he used that was published in 1906, but this would perhaps lead to more information on the phrase since he quotes it as "Deus volt."
JW (
talk)
17:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I think you'll find the phrase originates long before that. Try Augustine. Cited in Harnack's History of Dogma, "197 Augustine indeed could further explain why the form, in which the good takes possession of and delivers the soul, must consist in the infusion of love. So long as the soul along with its will is confronted by duty (an ought), and commands itself to obey, it has not completely appropriated the good; “nam si plena esset, nec imperaret ut esset, quia jam esset” (Confess. VIII. 21). Accordingly, the fact that it admits the duty, does not yet create an effective will ex toto. It must accordingly so love what it ought, that it no longer needs command itself; nay, duty (the ought) must be its only love; only then is it plena in voluntate bona. The “abyssus corruptionis nostræ” is only exhausted when by love we “totum illud, quod volebamus nolumus et totum illud, quod deus vult, volumus (Confess. IX. 1). Doubtless online somewhere ... Parzivalamfortas 01:48, 3 September 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Parzivalamfortas ( talk • contribs)
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Benjamin ( talk) 00:41, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
The first usage of "Deus Vult" in Paradox Interactive games appears to be in 2007, [1]. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 21:18, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
@ Mendaliv, GregDennings, Exemplo347, Deepred6502, and Maxaxax: There are reliable sources that describe how this phrase has been co-opted by the Alt-right. While some claim WP:RECENTISM others seem to think this usage is beneath Wikipedia's mention.
the content in question
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According to Press reports, this phrase was occasionally used as a code-word on social media by adherents of the alt-Right movement during the mid-2010s and was among phrases spray-painted onto the walls of two Mosques in an act of vandalism. [1] [2] [3] References
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This is a single, well-sourced sentence so I don't think there's undue coverage. While I agree contemporaneous accounts are RECENTISM, that didn't stop full articles like Humayun Khan (soldier) and Khizr and Ghazala Khan from surviving AfD. This single sentence is why most readers will likely look for this article. I'm seeking consensus to include this material. Chris Troutman ( talk) 14:46, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
GregDennings Response
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I feel this an important (And maybe unspoken) aspect of this decision deals with the personal feelings many editors (reasonably) have with the Alt-right movement. I feel that at present there is not enough evidence to support a widespread 'co-opting' or 'adoption' of the phase 'Deus Vult' in the Alt Right Movement. The phrase existed as an internet meme for several years before any use for alt-right purposes, and even currently a few isolated cases of it's use with anti-Islamic vandalism (or vandalism that is assumed to be anti-Islamic as is the case with the USM graffiti). The Washington Post does cite evidence of alt-right supporters linking their movement to the crusades, but the use of words like 'co-opting' and 'adoption' suggest a formal adoption of the phrase when in reality its use is largely constrained to a small minority college aged 4chan browsers on twitter accounts. Adding the statement linking "Deus Vult" to the Alt-Right movement in this way only legitimizes its use as a rallying cry for the movement and alters the general perception of the phrase. Exemplo347's alteration of the page as seen at the end of 11/27 with the change of "adopted" to something more in line with "sometimes used" would be the most factual and nonbiased way to approach the issue in my opinion. I hope this is an adequate and appropriate response. - GregDennings ( talk) 16:36, 29 November 2016 (UTC) |
Exemplo347 Response
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I was quite concerned to see that a completely factual & well referenced statement, supported by reliable sources and deliberately phrased in a neutral way, was removed - the reasons given were spurious and the premise for the removal is so thin that the impression is given that the removal is based on the editor's personal feelings. One of the principles of editing Wikipedia is that factual, well referenced information that is relevant to the article should not be removed. Exemplo347 ( talk) 18:34, 29 November 2016 (UTC) |
Guest Response
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Huffington Post and Washington Post are not reliable sources. Besides, if anything, Desu Vult is only being used as an insignificant meme. It makes absolutely no sense to have Wikipedia mention it in an objective article. Wikipedia is not Know Your Meme. 15:51, 08 December 2016 (UTC) |
One of the links used as references actually uses KnowYourMeme as reference. In general, between those three links, there appears to be a lot of cross-referencing with no actual reliable sources. I know WP has an agenda to follow, but this part of the article is incredibly biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.57.248.127 ( talk) 18:11, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
"agenda"is being served by including the sentence? My guess is the fact that it mentions a political topic you think somehow criticizes those that use the phrase is problematic so you'd rather sidestep the issue. If you have a real suggestion as to the problem and its solution then feel free to discuss. Chris Troutman ( talk) 18:29, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
The alt right uses a large amount of innocuous memes, as do other people. Mentioning the use by the alt right in particular is absolutely misleading. No one has to provide sources to prove a negative, and there are no sources that seem to reliably prove that it’s used in particular to the alt right. This obviously needs to be edited. True Sakana ( talk) 19:13, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
As opposed to constantly reverting my edits in silence, I would like some feedback here. Mentioning it’s use by a particular group over others is misleading. Chris Troutman dismissal of the problem was worthless and unconstructive. True Sakana ( talk) 19:04, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
I oppose this article being categorized into “Alt-right”, not only because the motto has been used for almost one thousand years but because this is nonsense and derogatory. It is the same thing as categorizing Frog into Alt right, Hat into Donald Trump or White people into Nazism. ― Eduardogobi ( talk) 02:07, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
Just want to make a note here on the wording of a sentence in this article.
The original wording "this phrase was occasionally used as a code-word on social media by adherents of the alt-right movement during the mid-2010s" just sounds completely wrong, as we are currently still in the mid-2010s. It sounds like the writer is pretending to write from the perspective of the future, something which is of course impossible. I don't know where user Exemplo347 got the idea that this is correct usage, but I have never seen this anywhere on WP in the 10+ years I have been reading and editing the site. This is why I changed it.
If my alternate wording still isn't acceptable, perhaps we could use the progressive perfect as a compromise?
"this phrase has been occasionally used as a code-word on social media by adherents of the alt-right movement since the mid-2010s "
I think this would convey the sense of temporal detachment while avoiding the writer-from-the-future thing.
-- 2.218.112.149 ( talk) 22:07, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
To editor Gxgxfx: You don't have consensus for your changes. Chris Troutman ( talk) 01:07, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
To editor
Neutrality: This is not POV and Time.com is most certainly a reputable source. Please read the cite I had included. Specifically, "Demographic changes, including lower birthrates for non-Muslim Europeans, are contributing to the changing face of Europe's religious and ethnic make-up. The above map shows historical data and projections for the growth of Muslim populations in Europe in 2030."
cite
Gxgxfx (
talk)
12:25, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
This is definitely older than "mid-2010s". This right-wing usage has existed at least since ~2000. Maybe earlier. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.204.73.94 ( talk • contribs)
I do not see any notability here. "Some internet trolls said 'deus vult' during the Trump election" isn't really much to go on. The best neutral source on this seems to be knowyourmeme.com. From the google search trend cited there, it seems obvious that (a) overall interest was very limited, and (b) it only peaked briefly in October 2016, outside of the internet trolling surrounding the presidential election there is next to no interest. None of this even remotely breaks the threshold of notability relative to the historical use of the phrase. If the phrase is relevant to some recent events, cite it in the articles about these, but "A is notable enough to be mentioned in the context of B" does not imply that "B is notable enough to be mentioned in the context of A". I find it inconceivable to cite something like
with a straight face in an article about medieval historiography. -- dab (𒁳) 13:08, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
"I frankly do not understand how there can be "discussion" about a matter"Wikipedia does not belong to you. There are a limited number of things you are allowed to do unilaterally. It is common for editors to start a discussion or request a move. It is less common for an admin or page mover to just move stuff without so much as leaving a courtesy message explaining why. You can revert yourself and then start a discussion where you can make your case. You might be right. I just insist that you edit collaboratively. While I appreciate you improving the article, that does not create buy-in nor does it purchase administrative discretionary leeway. Chris Troutman ( talk) 00:53, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
I doubt the "21st century usage" stands alone. The quote attributed to Alfred Thayer Mahan shows that the phrase has a modern history of proponents of just war from a Christian perspective. The "Internet meme" thing does the same, and should, if at all, be treated from this perspective. The problem with the "Internet meme" is that it is partly ironic, and that the very nature of "trolling" implies that the reader is not supposed to be aware of the irony. Nothing of this internet stuff can be taken at face value in any reasonable coverage of the meaning of the phrase in the context of just war.
But I am sure if actual publications by actual, identifiable authors are consulted instead, we will find a wealth of references to the phrase in the 20th century which consider the phrase seriously. This might also lead to a better understanding of its current usage. "Better" compared to the current approach of perusal of google hits from huffingtonpost covering "memes" the past 12 months or so.
The drawback of the approach I have outlined is that it will take work, and somebody interested in improving this article would have to spend a few hours on researching it. -- dab (𒁳) 20:06, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Deus Vult is term that traces back centuries before the inception of the alt-right or white nationalism. It has been used internationally, mainly in the Middle East and Europe, both in everyday situations and as a battle cry. Deus Vult (Latin) translates directly to 'in sha' allh (Arabic) and both are used interchangeably in the Middle East and elsewhere, among members of all different races and religions, as a term of willingness to comply or do something in the future. Something that I hear quite often is,"I will be there God willing('in sha' allh or Deus Vult)." Both phrases have been used in that way by Christian and Muslims for centuries.
To label the saying, Deus Vult, as belonging to white nationalists or the alt-right, is anti-Catholic and anti-Christian and is a complete degradation of the religious and cultural heritage of the Middle East and Europe.
Any attributes of this phrase with regards to white nationalists or the alt-right should immediately be taken down as anti-Catholic and anti-Christian hate speech. Veritas et fidei ( talk) 19:28, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Why was this moved to the less-correct "Deus lo vult"? Certainly that variant should be mentioned in the article but the title should be "Deus vult". Adam Bishop ( talk) 00:15, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is that this is the correct title. ( closed by page mover) Brad v 01:02, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
Deus vult → Deus lo vult – Procedural nomination after an out-of-process move. It's unclear what the most accurate phrasing of the battle cry of the first crusade is. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 19:40, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Pinging earlier participants and recent page editors: @ Adam Bishop, AnonMoos, Serial Number 54129, Chris troutman, Anupam, Dbachmann, Bishonen, and Steinbach: power~enwiki ( π, ν) 19:40, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
A whole paragraph - roughly 10 percent of this article- entirely relies on AND mentions in text an obscure blog (oilab.eu). Is this blog considered a reliable source? I'd argue WP:IRS states the opposite, and since oilab is obscure even for a blog (it doesn't carry an imprint and doesn't name a responsible editor or publisher) it should not be quoted and should even less be named in the article text). Based on that I suggest to delete this paragraph from the article. Wefa ( talk) 20:15, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
Despite the citation in the lead paragraph of this wiki entry, the phrase "Deus vult" does not appear in the Latin Vulgate. This fact is easy to verify. Someone should correct it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.47.52.130 ( talk) 15:15, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
To editor 14NathanAllan: Rather than edit war, please discuss. Chris Troutman ( talk) 20:03, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
My primary concern is that the sources cited in the modern usage section, specifically sources 12-15, are at best shoddy reference work, and at worst a dishonest attempt to make it look like there are many sources supporting the final paragraph. I think the article would be improved by removing (as a fair, middle ground) the links to the Vice News, Polygon, and Newsweek articles. Not only are they objectively bad, in agreeance with Adam Bishop, but both the Newsweek and Polygon articles reference back to the Washington Post article, creating circular/redundant references. I can’t tell if this is accidental or intentional, so I won’t speculate further, but the point remains, all of this rests heavily on the Washington Post article by Ishaan Tharoor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14NathanAllan ( talk • contribs) 22:51, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Hi
Ellbekarym. I think the dubious tag you added, to "By co-opting the slogan, racist movements in the U.S. intend to evoke a fantasy of a "pure" white European heritage, a nostalgic view that is historically inaccurate, and has been denounced by medievalist scholars as a gross distortion of history."
As far as I can tell, the denouncement by scholars was focused on the co-opting of medieval symbols/slogans in general, not "deus vult" in particular. I tried to rewrite the sentence to make that clear. Does that resolve your concern?
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
18:28, 20 November 2023 (UTC)