This article was reviewed by member(s) of WikiProject Articles for creation. The project works to allow users to contribute quality articles and media files to the encyclopedia and track their progress as they are developed. To participate, please visit the
project page for more information.Articles for creationWikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creationTemplate:WikiProject Articles for creationAfC articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hawaii, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Hawaii on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HawaiiWikipedia:WikiProject HawaiiTemplate:WikiProject HawaiiHawaii articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Guitarists, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Guitarists on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GuitaristsWikipedia:WikiProject GuitaristsTemplate:WikiProject Guitaristsguitarist articles
Regarding my Draft of David "Feet" Rogers Biography
Hello,
You declined the publishing of my article about David "Feet" Rogers.
Granted, I'm attempting at writing my first article in Wikipedia, with the intention of adding David "Feet" Rogers Biography as a Hawaiian Musician to wikipedia.
Sons of Hawaii has its own wikipedia page where David "Feet" Rogers is listed as a member. Why cannot there be a Wikipedia article on David "Feet" Rogers should someone be interested on finding out more about him?
Feet has a documented and verifiable body of music recordings, and is well known part of Hawaiian musical history within Hawaii. There are people the world over who love Hawaiian music and Feet's playing and may never know who he was. Adding his biography to Wikipedia is my attempt to correct that for the benefit of posterity.
Please include your personal definition of "significant coverage" and "reliable independent sources". My sources include Wikipedia itself with article mentioning David "Feet" Rogers, credits on Allmusic.com, the University of Hawaii's database, as well as independent article written by others about Feet. Those sources meet my understanding of "significant coverage" and "reliable independent sources"
David "Feet" Roger is indeed mentioned in other articles accepted on Wikipedia. Is Wikipedia not significant?
I submitted the article, and Wikipedia said it can take up to 3 months to be verified, and you shot it down 18 minutes later. I can't help but conclude that you did not take a good enough look at the references, and just made a quick judgment call.
Thepublicschoolmusician (
talk)
16:47, 8 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Sorry, I forgot to include the link to the article:
There is also SIGNIFICANT mention of David "Feet" Rogers in the book "Kika Kila: How the Hawaiian Steel Guitar changed the sound of modern music" by John W. Troutman.
Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source. Allmusic is not an independent source, YouTube and databases are not reliable sources. the
Sons of Hawaii is in VERY poor shape too! "Kika Kila: How the Hawaiian Steel Guitar changed the sound of modern music" by John W. Troutman sounds a much more promising source.
Theroadislong (
talk)
16:58, 8 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Ok great, I agree that the Kika Kila book by John Troutman is a promising source, as Mr. Troutman is a music historian and curator of the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History.
I will GLADLY reference as much material from that book as I can to hopefully meet your standard.
Thank you for your feedback, I am including as much information from John Troutman's book as I can into the article right now.
I do, however disagree with you that AllMusic is indeed an independent source. They're the current music industry authority to credits on music recordings as far as recording performance credit as well as songwriting credit.
While I'm glad that the pushback you're giving me is making my article stronger and more likely to be accepted, I do have to wonder the following:
You said Wikipedia itself is NOT a reliable source. That means none of the information on Wikipedia is reliable. If that's the case, why are you making it so hard for me to create an article about an important, yet obscure musician that I don't want history to completely forget?
As I'm re-reading this book I have by Johnathan Troutman, is the only reason why he is a reliable source because of his accolades? In effect, he is doing the exact same thing I did: go directly to the people in Hawaii who knew the subject matter and relay their words and experiences.
But since he works for the Smithsonian, he has clout. I get that I'm just a person with a username.
In reality, Mr. Troutman interviewed the exact same people that I know personally: Alan Akaka, and Bobby Ingano. I talk to each of them weekly.
Bobby was Feet's student. I'm Bobby's student.
I have the exact same access to Alan and Bobby that Johnathan Trout did, and I have the same ability to curate this information that I want to share to the world, and the exact same chances to get things right or wrong. The only difference is he wrote a book and works for the Smithsonian.
The only difference is that I want more of Feet's specific contribution to be available to the world through the platform of Wikipedia. I don't even care about writing credit.
Thepublicschoolmusician (
talk)
18:00, 8 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Feet DEFINITELY passes the criteria of WP:NMUSICIAN
6) Is an ensemble that contains two or more independently notable musicians, or is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles. This should be adapted appropriately for musical genre; for example, having performed two lead roles at major opera houses. Note that this criterion needs to be interpreted with caution, as there have been instances where this criterion was cited in a
circular manner to create a self-fulfilling notability loop (e.g., musicians who were "notable" only for having been in two bands, of which one or both were "notable" only because those musicians had been in them.)
--Gabby Pahinui and Eddie Kamae are both independently notable musicians whose body of work speak for themselves, AND are significant contributors to American music history. Feet played with both of these gentlemen.
7) Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city; note that the subject must still meet all ordinary Wikipedia standards, including
verifiability.
Honestly, Feet's contribution to American Music History is no less significant to someone like Muddy Waters. It's just that while Feet's Musical contribution was known, felt, and heard, Feet himself is likely to fall into obscurity. I'm just trying to do my part in being a torch bearer to the next generation of Steel players who might want to know about Feet.
After reading Wikipedia's policies, I'm confident that David "Feet" Rogers meets all of Wikipedia's criteria for notability, reliability, and significance.
(
talk page stalker)@
Thepublicschoolmusician #6 does not apply because the draft is not about an ensemble; it is about an individual musician and none of the current sources cited supports he meets the criteria (see also
WP:BANDMEMBER). The most in-depth source is Steel Trappings but it does not meet the
reliable source guideline as it appears to be more of a community forum or blog with no evidence of editorial oversight or history of fact-checking.
S0091 (
talk)
18:33, 8 July 2023 (UTC)reply
@ talk page stalker, #6 DOES apply. It clearly states "Is and ensemble....OR is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of 2 or more independently notable ensembles."
Feet Rogers fits the latter definition of #6 as he was an original member of the Sons of Hawaii through many renditions over the years as members passed away, AND he was a member of the Maile Serenaders as well.
Furthermore, my most in depth source is the book "Kika Kila how the Hawaiian Steel Guitar changed the sound of modern music" by John W. Troutman. John Troutman is curator of music and musical instruments at the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of American History in Washington, DC.
His book won the following awards:
AWARDS & DISTINCTIONS
2017 Lawrence W. Levine Award, Organization of American Historians
2017 Sally and Ken Owens Award, Western History Association
2017 Best History, Best Research in Recorded Popular Music, Association for Recorded Sound Collections
2017 Music in American Culture Award, American Musicological Society
Woody Guthrie Award, International Association for the Study of Popular Music-US Branch
You yourself told me that Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source. According to that same logic, none of the articles on Wikipedia have reliable sources either?
This is all empirically observable things with quick google searches.
The reason why David Feet Rogers is notable is because the Sons of Hawaii were THE preeminient Hawaiian music band in Hawaii.
Eddie Kamae himself said, "Hawaiian music without the steel is not really Hawaiian music."
There is only ONE steel guitar player in any Hawaiian group, and David Feet Rogers was the Steel guitar player for the pinnacle of Hawaiian music groups. Out of all the steel guitar players that could be considered, he got the job. That is most certainly notable.
Furthermore, Feet was selected as the featured steel guitar soloist on the National Geographic's "Music of the World Series" for Hawaii. THAT is most certainly notable.
Thepublicschoolmusician (
talk)
22:08, 8 July 2023 (UTC)reply
The reason why David Feet Rogers is notable is because the Sons of Hawaii were THE preeminient Hawaiian music band in Hawaii. The Sons of Hawaii were crucial to the Renaissance of Traditional Hawaiian music in Hawaii.
Eddie Kamae himself said, "Hawaiian music without the steel is not really Hawaiian music."
There is only ONE steel guitar player in any Hawaiian group, and David Feet Rogers was the Steel guitar player for the pinnacle of Hawaiian music groups. Out of all the steel guitar players that could be considered, he got the job. That is most certainly notable.
Furthermore, Feet was selected as the featured steel guitar soloist on the National Geographic's "Music of the World Series" for Hawaii. THAT is most certainly notable.
I just don't get it,
Alan Akaka has his own wikipedia page. He's a lap steel guitarist in Hawaii who is still alive, and Alan has NOWHERE NEAR the discography that Feet does.
David "Feet" Rogers own face is listed on multiple Sons of Hawaii Album covers as is his name. How else can one prove he was a member of the Sons of Hawaii to meet your standard? Does someone need to write an article that he was in the Sons of Hawaii? If so, then his obituary says that, which is included.
I did read the notability guidelines on Wikipedia and WP:NMUSICIAN. David "Feet" Rogers most certainly meets criteria mentioned in there.
If I use
Alan Akaka's Wikipedia as an example, Alan's wikipedia page has only 4 references, one book, and 3 local online news articles from Hawaii.
Arguably, Alan Akaka is less notable in his role in Hawaiian Steel Guitar than David "Feet" Rogers, yet Alan has a Wikipedia page.
I fixed the Sons of Hawaii Source, by sourcing his obituary.
Other than empirically looking with your own eyes at album covers to see David "Feet" Rogers face and Name, I know no other way to prove that he was part of the band.
It sounds like your issue is with the source, not proving that he was in the band.
I added the fact that Feet is a 2019 inductee to the Hawaiian music Hall of fame and was also the featured steel guitarist on an National Geographic album in 1974.
In addition to what I have already written about him, those two facts should put David "Feet" Rogers over the top in satisfying the requirements for notability and significance.
Thepublicschoolmusician (
talk)
20:08, 9 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I double sourced Sons of Hawaii corroboration with 2 published books with 13 digit ISBN numbers.