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A fact from Cyprian Norwid appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the Did you know column on 26 September 2023 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
Did you know... that the 19th-century poet Cyprian Norwid(pictured), now recognized as one of the most important Polish poets, led a poverty-stricken life and his works were rarely appreciated until decades after his death?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Source comments, that I'm going to wait for a response on before continuing:
Could you supply translated titles?
Could you explain why Encyclopedia PWN is reliable?
I don't like Wikisource as a source; it's user-generated content, just like us, and we're not a reliable source. I suggest reformatting as an interwiki link, or finding a template; I'm sure such exists.
Could you explain why wolnelektury.pl is a reliable source?
Similarly, mission.net?
Similarly, polishlit.org?
Other sources seem reliable on the face of it. Spotchecks to follow after these have been addressed.
I'm a little confused about the works/bibliography. It seems neither exhaustive, nor restricted to the highlights. His works in Polish are best known, surely; yet you list only two, and many more in English? Does a translation into Bengali really belong? Are you listing poems, collections, plays, something else? What role is the bibliography playing? If it's sources about him, they should be used, rather than listed? I think a little work is needed there.
@
Vanamonde93 I'll work on those (translated titles) shortly.
Encyklopedia PWN is effectively Polish equivalent of Britannica. The link to Fortepian Szopena on Wikisource is used not as much as a source, but as a link to the English version of the poem (and yes, I agree the entire works/bibliography is not ideal, maybe they should be split into another article, as they are indeed incomplete - mostly just stuff that existed here before my c/e of the article). wolnelektury is used in the same vein, just a link to the English text of the work. Ditto for mission.net.
I suspect there is some promotionalism going on with the Bengali newspaper; and it doesn't appear to be a heavyweight paper. But it's a minor point, and I leave it to your judgement.
Didn't catch this the first time, but
this source both seems marginally reliable, and has wording that's far too close to our article.
Copyvio spotchecks otherwise clear.
At FAC, I might question the use of the primary journal website for Studia Norwidiana; here I think it's permissible, but only just, more from a due weight perspective than a reliability perspective.
Moving to spotchecks. Not going to attempt Polish spotchecks unless the English ones throw up issues.
FN7a supports his self-learning, but not languages specifically; I assume the other source covers it.
FN7e; source says passport, not citizenship; while they are frequently synonymous, they are not necessarily so. I suggest rewording or using a different source.
FN7g partially supports the sentence it follows. Suggestion, not required at the GA level; when using two or more source to construct a sentence, use them as needed in the middle of a sentence, so only a single source is used for a given fragment of text. I know this isn't always possible (I'm often unable to do so), but it sometimes is, and aids verifiability
Possibly? I'm not a MOS fanatic, lord knows. And I don't require it by any means, but I've been given a difficult time over this at FAC. Vanamonde (
Talk)15:09, 4 September 2023 (UTC)reply
FN7n checks out
FN7o checks out
FN7s checks out
FN13: not sure what this source supports besides deafness, which is covered elsewhere?
Not strictly speaking, though I would try to fix it in any of my submissions, and I think most folks would appreciate it being pointed out; as I understand it the GA criteria require a source to be unambiguously identifiable, nothing more. Vanamonde (
Talk)15:09, 4 September 2023 (UTC)reply
FN22a: not sure where this supports "graphics firm" specifically, rest checks out.
I've added a new dedicated ref which I think supports this in more detail - pleaes double check (
[3]). On a side note, I am increasingly amazed how well studied Norwid's life is (also, in English!) compared to many other literary figures I am worked on. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here03:43, 2 September 2023 (UTC)reply
FN22b checks out.
FN22c checks out.
FN56 checks out
FN57 checks out.
FN58 checks out
Moving to prose, as other issues are not fatal to the nomination. I'll make copyedits as I go, feel free to revert and discuss as needed.
The lead feels a little short, and choppy. The first three paragraphs are of one, two, and one sentence; the last, which is the only biographical paragraph, is of three. I would suggest fleshing it out a little more, in particular with a couple more sentences about his life.
"Maria Kalergis, née Nesselrode" this is confusing; was he courting a married woman, or a divorced one? Otherwise, I assume Kalergis is her later married name, and I suggest rephrasing this "Maria Nesselrode (later known by her married name,
Maria Kalergis) or equivalent.
Married but separated. Her husband died in 1863. See her bio for details (an interesting case of a pre-20th century notable women whose first husband does not seem to be notable, as far as I can tell...). Perhaps we can remove "née Nesselrode" as unnecessary (confusing?) detail? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here04:03, 5 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Not strictly a GA-level issue, but I saw material in the sources about how his journey to the US was harrowing and long; I suggest fleshing that out a little bit.
"With his artistic work revived" we haven't got a sense for why this happened; I can understand that the sources are likely patchy, but this feels jarring.
"He lived in England with Krasiński's help he was finally able to return to Paris" this is ambiguous: could mean "He lived in England and with Krasiński's help he was finally able to return to Paris.." or "He lived in England with Krasiński's help. He was finally able to return to Paris..."
"Norwid continued writing, but with little recognition." this seems at odds with much of the previous paragraph
I'd appreciate suggestions on now to reword this. When I started improving this, my first impression was that most of Norwid's work were not published during his lifetime. Now it seems correct to say that most of longer works were unpublished, and he failed to publish most anthologies, but many of his shorter pieces did get a single edition that however went mostly unnoticed during his lifetime (i.e. one could desribe him, during his lifetime, as a struggling writer, reminiscent IMHO to Van Gogh being a struggling painter during his lifteime, etc.). See for example the cited source (the very bottom right of the page; which however quotes is frutration expressed in the 1858 poem in the context of him being unable to publish his 1866 work, sigh). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here05:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)reply
On re-reading, this doesn't seem like an issue any more; the minor tweaks above have taken care of it, I think. I take your point that an absence of information is difficult to convey. Vanamonde (
Talk)15:50, 12 September 2023 (UTC)reply
You don't explain the alternate middle name anywhere that I can see?
Ah, Konsanty vs Kamil? No I did not because I did not think about it. Thank you for drawing my attention to this. Fixed - by removing what could be a possible hoax, sigh (I could not find any off wiki soruces for Konstanty).
17 years old hoax? Probably worth adding to the
WP:HOAXLIST. I'll add his correct middle name(s) with a note per pl wiki and source I found. Nice catch! (Side note: do you know a better way to do notes than what I am doing with the old, old code here?). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here05:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)reply
"compared to then-prevailing themes (romanticism and positivism) works were also not aligned with the political views of the emigre Poles" I cannot follow this fragment; also suggest breaking into more than one sentence, as there are multiple ideas there.
Better but "and their subjects were also not aligned" is still ambiguous; whose subjects? And how would subjects be aligned with political views? It would also be nice if you could saw how they weren't aligned, but that's not mandatory. Vanamonde (
Talk)15:50, 12 September 2023 (UTC)reply
A new paragraph should typically refer to its subject by name rather than pronoun; I fixed a couple, check for examples throughout.
Thanks: seems to be one comment, about phrase similarity, that you've missed? Otherwise looks good, other spot checks were clear so I see no need for you to send me pdfs. Vanamonde (
Talk)04:31, 2 September 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Did you know nomination
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
this nomination's talk page,
the article's talk page or
Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
ALT1: ... that although the 19th-century poet Cyprian Norwid(pictured) is now recognized as one of the most important Polish poets, his works are sometimes criticized as "dark", "weird" or "difficult to understand"? Source:
https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=12300