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This is really nerdy and arguably irrelevant, but I feel like the following statement can be proven false:
The product of an odd number of prime numbers (e.g. 11) cannot be a square number.
Proof:
There is no way that a sequence of this type can form a perfect square. Hypatient ( talk) 02:29, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
. . . The universe was made on purpose, the circle said. In whatever galaxy you happen to find yourself, you take the circumference of a circle, divide it by its diameter, measure closely enough, and uncover a miracle—another circle, drawn kilometers downstream of the decimal point. There would be richer messages farther in . . .
Furthermore, the characterization used in this article of the pattern discovered by Ellie at the end of the book is erroneously conflated with the mysterious message alluded to by the Stationmasters. At least according to the epilogue, the circle is merely a precursor, a marker for the mathematician that they are on the right path. The article says Ellie's program uncovers a string, "The string's length is the product of 11 prime numbers", this is incorrect, nor stated in the epilogue (also, it is not expressed how far beyond the decimal the Argus found this pattern: certainly not 1020). The string of binary digits being the product of 11 primes was characteristic of the Stationmasters' unsolved message, not the circle-within-a-circle: Ellie even mused upon this fact that it was unlikely her program had already stumbled across their mystery. The article continues: "The extraterrestrials suggest that this is a signature incorporated into the Universe itself. Yet the extraterrestrials are just as ignorant to its meaning as Ellie, as it could be still some sort of a statistical anomaly." Again, this is incorrect: someone mistook the circle at the end of the book and the Stationmasters' unsolved binary message to be the same thing. The narrator alludes the circle to a signature; the Stationmasters referred to a full, as-of-yet-decrypted message.
At no point in the epilogue does it state the circle and the unsolved binary message to be the same thing; in fact an entire paragraph was devoted to Ellie musing the possibility of "easier" and "harder" messages, this one likely a mark of encouragement.
Anyway, just sharing. Watemon ( talk) 09:13, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
The date of marriage between Carl Sagan and his wife is stated as 1979 in this article, yet on her wikipedia page it says 1981. Which one is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orange.County.Steve ( talk • contribs) 02:58, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
The transcendental number PI actually does contain deep within its digits a pattern of 1's and 0's representing a rasterized circle, precisely as described by Carl Sagan. As German mathematician Jörg Arndt explains, "Somewhere in PI, everything that is finite is surely to be found, including, when coded in numeric form, every text in the world, the shortest, the longest, the cleverest. Naturally that includes this text, and also of course the Bible, in every language, and every piece of music." From this we can extrapolate that PI also contains somewhere the full text of the novel Contact. See "Pi unleashed", page 4. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pbnelson ( talk • contribs) 04:14, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Or perfect anything, how do we know the numbers of pi are accurate.
-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.67.114.38 ( talk) 03:15, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
To my mind the Conclusion section of this article reads like a subjective review and arguement against Intelligent Design. The following section should stay, but I think the rest should go:
"Intelligent design proponents often cite the ending of Contact as proof that Sagan believed that, using the tools of science, it was possible to discover if there was a creator of the universe. This position is in direct conflict with the vast body of Sagan's views as represented in his work and writings, which are best described as dismissive of claims of supernatural origins of the cosmos and favoring explanations of a naturalistic origin."
Even this I find a little subjective, it would be better to provide quotations that state Sagan's view explicitly, there appear to be many available.
The section on Pi, Averroes, Feynman etc. appears to be a critique/personnel analysis it's interesting but I don't really think it has any place in this entry.
This phrase is illogical: "much like the proof of God by testaments of the biblical times which are not accepted by modern science as evidence." Testaments of biblical times are not considered "proof of God". They are stories about God. To read them requires a priori that God exists. They in no way serve as evidence that God exists. Never has a Biblical scholar, theologian, nor any other academia, nor the Bible itself, made the claim that the testaments of the Bible serve as proof of God. If the Bible ever made that claim, then it would contradict itself when it speaks of the importance of faith. Bryanpeterson 21:14, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Random question: is it known at all why Sagan named a character after Esarhaddon, an Assyrian king? Is there something to that historical figure's life story that adds some kind of meaning or depth to the character? It seems like an odd choice for a cheap joke (if it's just for kicks, why not some old colleague/foe of Sagan's?) but I can't figure out what else it could be. Or is it merely coincidence (I doubt it, but I suppose it's possible)? Jwrosenzweig 22:30, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think it's a mistake to characterize this book as being "about the idea that our universe may have been created". This is really a minor point from the very end of the book and is not even conveyed in the movie. Not only is it a spoiler, it's not even a correct analysis of the story.
—--- —
I may have figured this one out- when Esarhaddon became King, he rebuilt the destroyed Babylonian temple and brought the statues of the Babylonian gods back to the city. So right away you have a similarity with his consistent role in the story as reviving what had been destroyed/lost (bringing funding back in to Ellie's research after she's been dropped by her previous backers, bringing in the primer when no cryptologist on Earth was seeing a way to solve this thing, and of course with being the corporate sponsor of the construction of the second machine.)
Another angle- So as not to appear biased in the bitter divide between Babylonians and Assyrians (each having their own faith/religion) Esarhaddon also rebuilt the Assyrian temple. So one might say that he gave both opposing camps (i.e. science and faith....) something to believe in again.
Either way, Sagan goes above and beyond to suggest Hadden as a symbolically god-like figure- I mean he literally lives in the sky and within the context of the story more or less knows all.
From a story-telling/screenwriting perspective, the meaning of the name is hugely significant and kind of the difference between the story being well-made or not. Hadden's position in the story structure and unfolding of information is technically very problematic- he serves as a deus ex machina (tisk, tisk) not once but three times. Were someone as knowingly sophisticated as Sagan not behind the storytelling, critics would be dragging this aspect of the plot relentlessly and reading it to filth. (Yea, it's real easy to solve your mystery when someone randomly sends you a fax and is like "I got it, here it is.") However, it's Sagan, so there's got to be more there.
God/man in the sky references aside, we know one thing about Hadden: he has unlimited wealth and unlimited resources. And within our society- relative to, say, a public bus driver- those people have almost god-like power and control. The amount of time in the story spent on the arduous process of procuring funding for research shows that Sagan's not just interested in the big ideas here, he's also very grounded in the logistics. It's not just that religion requires faith in the unproven and science requires that curious scientists have faith in the unproven (from which they'll derive the motivation to prove them.) Things don't get proven without research. Research doesn't happen without money. The scientific advancement of humankind demands that new unproven things continuously be proven, and Sagan is constantly reminding the viewer/reader that that process will almost certainly involve a curious scientist asking someone for money, and in doing so, they're asking the bearer of the *money* to have faith.
So the only way that I- as a screenwriter- can justify Hadden's use throughout the story, justify the fact that the only reason any of this happened in this crazy story where humanity entered a new paradigm, the very difference between it happening and not happening, is S.R. Hadden and his belief in Ellie- is that Sagan is trying to put loads of emphasis on the fact that not only was Ellie was able to get people to have faith in her, she was able to get someone *with a ton of money* to have faith. The advancement of science depends not only on curious scientists having faith in the unproven, but in their ability to get people with *a ton of money* to share in their faith. After all- the big reveal of the 18 hours of static isn't just about getting Ellie vindication in the court of public opinion. It's about whether or not she'll get awarded A GOVERNMENT GRANT. (Cut to Ellie showing the kids all her fancy new satellites.)
One thing I'm still not sure of (and this couldn't be fully Contact-related unless there were remaining things to be unsure of) is what exactly Esarhaddon's motivations were for rebuilding the temples, aside from improving public opinion of him. Either way, what was likely a small decision for a King impacted the spiritual lives of an entire civilization.
But in short- the one of them rebuilt the big temple, and the other one rebuilt the big space machine.
Over and out.
148.75.51.107 (
talk)
22:14, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
I have reverted the following from the plot summary:
Sagan clearly states what the pattern means (underlines added for emphasis):
Any other interpretation misrepresents the novel.-- Johnstone 02:30, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
"It is left for the reader to decide if this is an unmistakably intelligent artifact, the artist's signature, or could it just be the true and statistical expression of an infinite number." No it is not. The entire novel was constructed so as to use the "message" inside Pi as a hypothetical example of how scientific investigation of the universe might be able to find evidence that the universe had been created. Even if you believe that every possible sequence of numbers existes in Pi, that such a clearly unusual and long sub-sequence as depicted in the story would be so easy to find in Pi is very low probability. Sagan created this as an example of the kind of evidence that a scientist would not be able to ignore. It is not ABSOLUTE proof that the universe had been created; that is not the point -- JWSchmidt 23:04, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
"That the universe may have been 'created' by something other than a supernatural deity is a paradox; a logical impossibility. "
reply to F. Monk. Why make dogmatic statements about what is and is not possible? Lord Kelvin claimed that Darwin was wrong about the ancient age of the Earth because no possible power source could keep the sun burning for billions of years. Kelvin was wrong: physicists soon discovered nuclear energy and Darwin's estimate of the great age of the Earth was eventually vindicated.
There are some scientists who are willing to talk about the speculative possibility that it might be possible, using advanced high-energy technologies, to create new universes. Sagan's novel even hints that advanced species in our universe might be involved in trying to develop such high-energy technologies. If our universe was created, why can't we in turn create new "daughter universes" for our universe?
"The circle found by Arroway's computer program no more proves that it's an 'unmistakably intelligent artifact' or is proof of 'an intelligence that antedates the universe' than pervasive fractals or the fine structure constant are evidence of universe being design in reality. That Sagan states it does in a piece of fiction in no way should be taken as a validation of the scientific merit of the argument."
"Proof" is just an argument that other people accept. All you are saying is that for you, such a discovery would not be proof that the universe was created. Sagan's point was that such a discovery is a fictional example of the type of discovery that would provide objective evidence that could be interpreted as support for the idea of a designed universe. The artificial nature of the "message" in Pi is such that it suggests that the designer of the universe wanted us to know that the universe had been designed.
Why even ask the artificial question of if Sagan managed to create an imaginary discovery that readers would find believable as evidence for a created universe? The point Sagan was making was that it is conceivable that if the universe was created and if the creator had wanted the inhabitants of the universe to know that it had been created, then the tools of science might allow us to detect evidence of the creator, evidence that is part of the structure of the universe. Sagan's point was, that there is no reason to avoid the need for objective evidence when we explore wonder-inducing issues like the origin of the universe. Sagan did not say that there is evidence of such a designer or that he thought it likely that such evidence can be found or even that he thought it likely that such evidence could exist. Sagan's point was that we have to use the objective methods of science to evaluate any evidence that might be taken as support for the idea that the universe was created. That Sagan wrote a novel dealing with these issues in no way "gives support" to intelligent design advocates. Intelligent design advocates can try to claim that it does, but such claims are easy to refute without denying what Sagan accomplished in his book. -- JWSchmidt 19:33, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
when i first watched this film i was doing my hsc for english, i think this is a great film, the characters are great and the director knows what he's on about, you rock!!!!!!!!!! my yr loved your film and it was a great experience watching it, and to all those people out there that dont like this movie, use have no taste in films,
bye mwah
I've edited this from the perspective of a mathematician. In particular, I wanted to point out that not only does π not depend on the geometry of the physical universe, it does not require geometry for its definition at all. Sagan himself mentions in Contact that
which clearly shows pi depends only on the properties of the natural numbers and number systems constructed from them, namely the rational numbers and the real numbers. It is not embedded in the fabric of space, but in grade-school arithmetic. Gene Ward Smith 04:17, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Please remember that Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. The talk pages are intended for the improvement of the article. Xihr 00:36, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
Actually, one could encode information in this way. What fraction one uses and where one stops could encode data.
What is ammusing about the pattern?
This article contains a large, entertaining editorial. Maybe the contributor should have it published in the campus newspaper? It certainly is not fit for an encyclopedia.
I'd watched the movie Contact a few years ago and read a bit of the book, and when I was doing some research on dissociative drugs, it seemed to me that Contact seems less like the dream of an astronomer but more like a Salvia trip. Take a look at the Salvia divinorum wiki. My hypothesis is this: This book was inspired by a salvia trip. Now I know many of you might be offended that your favorite astronomer might use mind-altering drugs, but I want to make it clear that I mean no offense and that I'm not trying to slander Carl Sagan. Jolb 17:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Revert from my appropriate revisions on June 3. Of which Diza said "comment is obviously mandatory to anyone who have read the book..!!"
What comment were you referring too?
The most obvious mistake I fixed was claiming Dawkins was a "well-known" atheist. Well-known by who? Just because a bunch of atheist websites quote him because they like some of the things he said doesn't make him an atheist. I gave evidence; I quoted his own words denying that he was an atheist: "An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no God" and the credible source from the Washington Post.
The second thing I fixed was the claim "touchstone by the leading proponents of the [[intelligent design movement". There is not citation. And an exhaustive google search I was unable to find one intelligent design proponent use anything by Sagan. Of course this doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And a coverage of the possible controversy may be warranted in this article but to claim the controversy extends to the extent that it is a "touchstone" is flagrantly false.
Besides those things I have no ideal what you mean by "comment is obviously mandatory to anyone who [has] read the book." I made no correction or deletion of anything about the book. Everything is still their, I just rearranged a few things to maintain fluidity because I deleted undocumented claims.
Bryanpeterson 15:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The section, Intelligent Design(misinterpretation) uses The Demon-Haunted World and Science as a Candle in the Dark as if they were the titles of two books. To the best of my knowledge, they are both part of the title of the same book The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark as stated in The_Demon-Haunted_World
Starmax777 14:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Does this part:
In a kind of postscript, Ellie, acting upon a suggestion by the senders of the Message, works on a program which computes the digits of π to record lengths and in different bases. Very, very far from the decimal point (10^20) and in base 11, it finds that a special pattern does exist when the numbers stop varying randomly and start producing 1's and 0's in a very long string. The string's length is the product of 11 prime numbers. The 1's and 0's when organized as a square of specific dimensions form a perfect circle.
...make sense? Is it possible for any number that is the product of 11 primes to be a square number? Ospinad 17:04, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 05:18, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I've added A for Andromeda, because "Contact" rang so many bells to me. It's only listed as a film, so far with no book page, (and Contact(film) doesn't have a See Also section) but I have to start somewhere. Swanny18 ( talk) 10:46, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
This might describe a FILM, not a NOVEL. Could this be written by someone who didn't read the book? Please fix this. Thanks Kvsh5 ( talk) 08:55, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Also, this line is in the article: "Ellie, a lifelong religious skeptic, finds herself asking the world to take a leap of faith and believe what she and the others say happened to them. She finds only one person willing to take that leap: Palmer Joss, a minister introduced early in the book."
In the novel, she is compelled to silence by Kitz and there is no announcement as to what occurred in the Machine. It is only in the movie where she asks "the world to take a leap of faith..."
72.177.232.201 ( talk) 03:02, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
I once attended a discussion at UC Davis in the late 1990's in which one of the featured scifi authors said that Sagan was visiting an observatory when a transmission was received from the Vega region. I wish I still had my notes. Apparently it got very exciting for a short period of time. The transmission was later confirmed to simply have been an earlier Earth transmission that had reflected back to Earth. Furthermore, the characters Ellie Arroway and Kent Clark are said to be based on real scientists involved in this discovery. Kent Clark is said to based on Kent Cullers though I can't find a reputable source to back up the claim.
Unfortunately, I don't have the name of my source nor proof that the event actually happened; just someone's else's claim. Worth stating in the discussion to encourage someone with knowledge of the event to step forward. Cputrdoc ( talk) 02:55, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
This article really needs some indications of the novel's notability: at present it consists of little more than a plot summary. Some indications of its reception and influence would be good here. Icalanise ( talk) 20:39, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
-- Similar books --
GroveGuy ( talk) 18:17, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
"It was based on a screenplay co-authored with Francis Ford Coppola" - an article in Variety is linked to in support of this, however the judge in the case is quoted agreeing that "Sagan had violated some terms of the contract" but it doesn't specify what those terms were and (IMHO) doesn't support the assertion that Coppola co-authored a screenplay that was the basis for Contact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.203.125.58 ( talk) 04:35, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
The article says "A third message is discovered" but what was the second message? Sofia Koutsouveli ( talk) 13:48, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
A hidden comment at the top of this section states that this is not original research. Actually, yes, it is. To be more specific, it is synthesis: combining material from two sources to say something that neither source directly says. This section calls for interpretation of which differences are significant, which are minor and how to quantify the differences. Comments before I remove the section? - SummerPhD ( talk) 01:29, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Is the "fathers" name Ted Arroway or Theodore Arroway? 101.98.175.68 ( talk) 08:21, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
The ideas of a violent religious objection to scientific advancements in "Contact" are quite similar to those in presented in Isaac Asimov's 1940 short story "Trends". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snapdragon630 ( talk • contribs) 22:57, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
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I find it hard to accept the novel in the "hard science fiction" category because of a way too generous licence, unexpected for a scientific writer. It is relevant in the story that the extraterrestrial signal is claimed to be fake, generated by a satellite - something impossible in 1985 when it was published, impossible thirty-two years later, and impossible in another thirty-two years at least. Ignacio.Agulló ( talk) 14:01, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
IMO, the conclusion of the story (a proof of the existence of God being discovered in the digits of Pi) does not qualify as hard science fiction by any stretch of the imagination. 130.217.217.15 ( talk) 00:59, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
In one chapter of the novel, Ellie is in Paris for some kind of a scientific conference.
One of her experiences there (which I assume must be actually an experience of Sagan during a visit to Paris) is that she sees ubiquitous signs advertising the Banque Nationale de Paris. She keeps imagining that if the middle letter of the BNP on those ads were reversed into a mirror image, it would be "the English word 'beer' spelled out in Russian letters". She keeps thinking that it looks like an ad for Russian beer.
The trouble is that Sagan was wrong.
In Russian, the English capital B is the letter for the sound V. If you reverse the middle letter in that French acronym, you have a word that in Russian would have to be pronounced "vir" (coincidentally a Latin word for "man").
Maybe this point is not important, but I wonder if other people who had read the novel noticed it. Tesseract12 ( talk) 23:29, 6 June 2023 (UTC)