Archive 1 (May 14 2005 to Dec. 20 2005) |
Why is there a such section in the handheld wars? There is already global statistics, so why are the statistics of one country included separately? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.217.18.61 ( talk) 12:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
The US sales figures for the 7800 are wrong! It sold 3.77 million in the US alone - http://atariage.com/forums/topic/144552-happy-25th-7800-sales-figures-attached/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by RetroLaird ( talk • contribs) 22:52, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
These generation names are really terrible.
I can see why you've done it for the PS2 et al onewards as there is no '128 bit' but prior to that the generations do have definate names. They are the 8-bit and 16-bit consoles.
Read anything on the console wars not based upon this wikipedia article and you will see talk of 8-bit, 16-bit and 32-bit consoles. This 'third generation' stuff is purely a wikipedia creation and not a very good one.
At the very least we should give the eras with proper names their proper names (8 bit, 16 bit, 32 bit). Ideally we should have better names for the generations after too- Wii et al is the 'current generation' so we don't have to worry about that for the next few years. For the PS2 et al though...I think we should adapt a desciptive name. Maybe the 'DVD era' or 'enter Microsoft' or something of the sort- with the current gen likewise being renamed a few years down the road depending on what defines it (maybe it'll be HD, maybe motion sensing, who knows). But thats irrelevant.
The main point for now- 8 to 32 bit eras deserve their proper names!--
Josquius
14:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
This is one of the main 'hub' articles however. This is a article that sets the trend. If we only followed what was 'correct' on wikipedia then nothing would ever get changed as articles are all inter-reliant.
The current naming structure despite being terrible also goes against
this rule.
The N64 doesn't really belong in the 32 bit console war. As I said ages ago there were two seperate console wars there- the main one between the PSX and Saturn and a lesser one when the Saturn was a non-issue between the PSX and the N64 several years later.--
Josquius
12:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Edge is the industry magazine. Very well known and respected.
And weasel words? In favour of whom? I have little interest in next gen consoles right now and have yet to get involved. Feel free to rewrite it though, the previous version was just on totally the wrong thing.
Again you are using the argument that as it is the current standard it is right. That is not the way wikipedia works. We had this sort of naming structure a year or so back and then we decided to change it back to bits once more. Bits is the standard unit of measurement for consoles back when bits mattered. Go and read anything on past consoles. The NES is 8-bit, not '3rd generation'. This current naming structure is original research.
And yes there should be consistancy, it all has to start somewhere however.--
Josquius
23:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Here just look, google tests don't always work but in this case I think they prove my point.
80,700 hits for consoles "fifth generation". And if you'd notice most of the early ones seem to be wikipedia clones.
1,460,000 hits for consoles "32-bit". A few seem not to be about computer games though so...
277,000 hits for consoles "32-bit" playstation. Even with a extra qualifier its got quite a bit more there-- Josquius 00:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
You realise flatly reverting isn't the way to go yet you still do it...
And Edge's comments certainly do belong in a encyclopedia article, they are what classifies as 'leading analysists'.--
Josquius
09:07, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
And your information is incorrect- the PS3 came out before the Wii if we look at the earliest available anywhere- 11th of November for the PS3, the 19th for the Wii. And if you consider that the PS3 is not due out until March in Europe I think enough of a case can be made for the Wii being first (it only being second in the US).
And how the hell do you figure that Edge is not relevant to wikipedia? It is THE games magazine in Europe. Its in the league of Famitsu, perhaps even more relevant as its a industry magazine as well as a standard games magazine. What it says carries a lot of weight, go look around computer game articles on wikipedia and you'll find a lot of references to what Edge has to say.--
Josquius
19:37, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Blah, got my words mixed up on which came first there. Yeah not everyone lives in Europe but a lot of people do. A few days difference either way in Japan and the US doesn't make much difference, PS3 was first in one and the Wii in the other. Half a years difference stands between them elsewhere though which certainly does mess up the averages.
You seem to be failing to grasp the concept of sources if you don't think something written in a popular magazine on the subject in question is relevant. The entire point of sources is they are good, if it was just me saying this then fair enough but as it is its a major authority on the subject in question. Why are you so against that being in anyway? I think its a rather good theory consistant with established facts about the way computer games are heading.--
Josquius
23:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
You are really being quite ignorant here. Europe exists you know. Theres about 400 million people here. Perhaps if instead of flatly reverting everything I write you let the article MENTION that the PS3 came out first in Japan but second elsewhere? And no its not speculation, its deducted reasoning. And how can I properly source a paper-based source?-- Josquius 00:08, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Possibly the use of generational titles is misleading, but much, much less than the use of bit counts to describe them. If the industry still uses this convention, then it's shockingly out of date for an industry that renews itself every few years. Wikipedia is not obliged to reflect some magazine's shortcomings, no matter how many insider connections it supposedly has. For one thing, using bitcounts oversimplifies the hardware differences-- what of the nintendo 64? It's not a 32-bit system, but putting it in the 'next generation' category pulls it out of its historical context. It also overlooks significant differences between, yes, eras of hardware-- To lump everything since the Playstation into one "next generation" category is woefully uninformative. In fact, the very existence of so nebulous a term shows how uninformative the '8, 16, 32, everything else-bit' categorization is.
Finally, to imply that the use of bit counts is 'objective' terminology is a joke; singling in on bit counts as the defining characteristic is purely subjective. Why not focus on memory size, clock speed, or storage media? The focus on 8-bit, 16-bit, etc. is not an especially useful distinction; if anything it is a hangover from console marketing campaigns past. For all the fuzziness between the eras-- and there is a significant amount, particularly in the vastly important Japanese market -- it is a far more useful distinction than arbitrary selections hardware differences. LFA's suggestion of timeframes might be more useful, though even that neglects the differences in release dates between regions. -- Gastric leperlicker 23:46, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
That I believe we should call the PS2 et al the 128bit era is a strawman created by Zaku that I have never once agreed with. I've no idea why they use bits to define consoles, they just do. Its the way it has always been. Nintendo even went as far as to call their console the N64 to draw attention to this.
I suppose to take a wild guess the reason it was done as its something that competing consoles have in common with each other. Clock speeds, memory sizes, etc... are usually pretty big numbers and competitors rarely (have they ever?) have the same number as each other so you couldn't have say the '133mhz processor wars'. But thats not impotant, its done and its the convention whether it makes sense or not.
The N64 does not fall under the 32 bit war. That was purely between the Saturn and the PSX. When the N64 came out many years later there was a new less intense (due to the PSX already being utterly dominant) war between it and the Playstation, it never really competed in a console war against the Saturn.
I agree with your assessment of lumping everything post Playstation into next generation...Where is it someone said that? Has it since been removed? That would be silly as there has been at least 2 wars since then, maybe more (N64 vs. psx, DC vs. PS2) -- Josquius 15:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
As means of solving the current dispute, I am conducting a straw poll on the changes proposed by Josquius with regards to section names the bulk of which can be found here [2]. This should be left open for a week at the very least, and the page revert war should end (IE I will stop, you will stop until we can get some other users input). I realise this is not the most frequented page on Wikipedia, so it may take longer than a week. - ZakuSage 20:09, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
In hindsight it may have been best to structure this poll differently. I think it's safe to say that this survey is not going to reach any sort of consensus or even a majority when more people are commenting than voting, and as such it should be considered closed. - ZakuSage
Since any changes to generation names here would have to far reaching effects on many more wikipedia articles, I'm opening up further discussion on this topic at CVG project talk. Refer there from now on. - ZakuSage 01:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Why do we need two different articles that essentially deal with then exact same thing, and in most cases contain the exact same information? - ZakuSage 21:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
They shouldn't deal with the same thing. Video game console should deal with what a video game console is. Console wars deals with...well the console wars. It seems to me that someone over at video game console decided to rip this article off to improve that one thus sending it in totally the wrong direction.-- Josquius 23:43, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Definatly not. Console wars is fine as it is (well not really, it needs improving but the general subject matter is fine), it discusses the consoles in the real world, market competition and fanboyism and the like. The video game console article should just deal with the physical attributes of the consoles (i.e. the old next generation bit) not the console wars.-- Josquius 09:09, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
No. I found this a useful resource for knowing who 'won' in a neutral tone, and this was under the first possible title I searched for with the information I expected. It is sufficiently different from Video Game Console to warrant its own article. 86.146.76.132 10:56, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think so... "Console Wars" describes the event. "Video Game Consoles" is an article with information on what a video game console is. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.52.242.3 ( talk • contribs).
Strongly agree with the above statement, I definitely think these should be two seperate articles. Cogswobble 18:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I think, as other have said, that this should remain a separate article fron the "Video Game Consoles" article. Some redundancy is unavoidable, and, I'd argue, not always detrimental (e.g. when the flow of the article benefits from the background). Gepstein 03:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
They are two seperate things. Video game console is about different consoles, and the console wars article is about the competition. Both are long, detailed articles and merging them would be a mess - • The Giant Puffin • 12:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I'll have to admit that merging these articles may have not been the best of ideas, but something still needs to be done about the massive amounts of redundant information between both. - ZakuSage 01:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't see the problem with redundant information, even if it's "massive": as long as each article details a sufficiently independant subject (as consensus seems to be indicating that "Video Game Consoles" and "Console Wars" do) and is internally coherent and accurate, it seems like redundancy just increases the ease w/ which people can find the information that they're looking for. Zhall 17:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I also agree that with such closely related articles, a certain amount of redundancy is unavoidable and even desirable. However, where information is not closely relevant to both topics, it should be limited to one page or the other. Alfort 06:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The video games article would be way too long including a full length discussion of the console wars. A link to this article should be included, but that is about it. 75.21.138.94 00:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I think that this whole revert editing war is dumb. On the page, originally the page read "first generation," "second generation," and so on. Renaming them to "8-bit," and "16-bit" and so on only implies that previous versions were not as important and that future versions will be "128-bit" or "256-bit," which they are not. It also makes for a discontinuity in how you would name console wars prior to NES/Master System (what I would call "the third generation war"). Plus, the terms "first," "second," "third," and so on are used as the parts of titles of articles related to this and also on the information bar on individual consoles' articles as well. Also, I agree that the term "next-gen" is a term that changes with time. For example, right now it refers to Xbox 360, Wii, and PS3, but should not be used as a permanent description of any generation of game consoles.-- Crossman33 22:36, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The article originally followed standard computer game industry conventions and read 8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit and next generation. Problems only arose when next gen was no longer next gen and no definate name emerged for it. Naming 'first generation', 'second generation' and all that is just wrong over most of the world and only works for America. In Japan the MS vs. NES was the first generation to have a war, in Europe it was the second.-- Josquius 15:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
What do people think about LFAS' suggestion--it's in the Straw Poll section of this page--about giving each era some kind of chronological name? There may be complications with this, but it would be objective, specific, and would seem to accurately identify at least the relevant periods of conflict (without having to rely on new or existing conventions that people obviously find to be confusing/inaccurate). Zhall 18:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
This debate should move to the generations page for all video game articles. Console Wars is a fine article as it is, and if the names of the generations change in the categories article, the console wars descriptions should be edited to conform with that Wikipedia standard. Until then, let's stick with the current generation naming convention and unprotect this page! 75.21.138.94 00:52, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I disagree. Console wars is about the competition between the big companies. The only relevant consoles here are your playstations and your mega drives. These wars are very easy to define as just 'X bit era' (up until PS2 et all of course which as mentioned is... difficult) Doing that for a more broad look at the history of games consoles though just wouldn't work. There have been many weird and wacky consoles which didn't take much of a part in this grand competition for market share. A year based structure would probally be best for computer games articles as a whole but here obscure consoles are irrelevant.-- Josquius 15:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
They just announced that they sold 10.4 million through the 2006 year...about half a million over their expectations. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.17.186.152 ( talk • contribs).
The PS3 and the Wii are not as updated as their wiki pages, they should be updated too.
If someone could please update the 360/PS3/Wii total sales numbers, it would be much appreciated. I don't know where else to go to get this information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.21.103.246 ( talk • contribs).
I think the bit about the BBC Micro having "superior technology" over the Commodore 64 definately has to go, since it is more than debabable: The BBC Micro had no hardware-sprites, no scrolling, less colours (8 max at the same time compared to 16 on the c64) and a Soundchip that could not come close to what a SID can do (no Filter, no Ringmodulation) . The only superiority i can see is a faster CPU, twice the RAM (only in the B+128 model though!) and that it also supported higher resolutions, albeit only with 2 colors monochrome, rendering it unsuitable for comparable game graphics quality. Since the BBC Micro did not have hardware sprites and scrolling, the faster CPU is not really noticeable in most games, as these extra MHz are quickly eaten up by having to calculate software sprites. Rare examples like well-suited Games such as Elite being better on the BBC Micro do not mean general technical superiority, it's the same with the ZX Spectrum... deekay64
I totally agree. Additionally, the C64 made better use of the limited RAM and CPU it had with its machine language and BASIC programmability. 75.21.138.94 00:44, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
The Dreamcast should not be mentioned as having been 'fourth' in the DVD era. Its status is somewhat similar to that of the N64 only the opposite. It arrived too early for the main console war and never competed with the Xbox and Gamecube, there was only some slight competition with the PS2, sort of a test run of the console war. To mention it as having been fourth ignores its special circumstances and implies that it actually did finish the generation.-- Josquius 18:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
The source for PS2 sales according to continent, I.e. US, Europe etc is incorrect. That is the number of systems shipped not sold. http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14940 is a better source for US sales. http://uk.gamespot.com/news/6161370.html?sid=6161370 and for Europe. If the other figures I.e. gamecube etc are shipments as well, maybe the title for that table should be changed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 90.196.41.221 ( talk) 11:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC).
We really need sources for the current generation sales figures. It seems almost like a mini-edit war between fanboys of systems and others who see lower numbers. None of the figures have sources cited and need citations added.-- Crossman33 20:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know a better source for sales figures rather than VGCharts or NexGenWars? It appears that A Link to the Past is correct, looking at WP:ATT about said "sources." I think that we should rely on official releases from the console manufacturers, rather than 3rd party sources; although VGCharts is better than NexGenWars, it is still not a proper source according to WP:ATT. I invite anyone to discuss this topic here.-- Crossman33 18:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
It is clear that NexGenWars should be ignored, but not so clear that 'VGChartz' should be discounted. I believe, for example, that A Link to the Past is wrong to say that it's run by a 19 year-old 'internut' (which is famously the case with NGW). Official sales figures are understandably hard to come by, as the companies involved feel that they are waging a publicity war at the moment. Could we not rebuild this section to list 'proper' source totals, besides offering advice about 3rd party sources such as VGChartz which don't pass muster? ElectricHermit 23:33, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, I don't really care to fill this page up with arguments about if the two are the same or not, but nevertheless both of them fail WP:ATT as well as NexGenWars. VGChartz (from now on used to refer collectively to both pages) and NexGenWars are both questionable sources and self-published. WP:ATT specifically states that these sources are not to be used, so this means that sales must be from proper releases. -- Crossman33 22:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Console Wars is also a funny film on wiitube. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Racooon ( talk • contribs) 07:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC).
Is there any countrywise data of sales in Europe and Asia? Anwar 11:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the claim that the Sega saturn was the first 32 games console isn't accurate, I think that the Amiga_CD32 was the first 32 bit console available. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.133.122.181 ( talk) 12:13, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Yep. The mega drive wasn't the first 16 bit either and I don't think the NES was the first 8 bit. Its just the first of the mainstream 32 bit era-- Josquius 03:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
In the current sales figures stated in the current generation section, it is stated that, according to the article Global Xbox 360 sales top 11.6M, the figures for the XBox 360 are 13.4 as of September 30, 2007. However, the article was written in September 20, 10 days prior to the date cited, and the number cited as of consoles sold is also much less than the one stated in the article (11.6 to 13.4). Either they sold 1.8 million consoles in ten days, which to me sounds like an incredible feat, or am I getting the whole data from the sources wrong? Please let me know if there is something going on, so we can set the figures straight with the right number of actual consoles sold.
The number of PS3 sales on this page seem to contradict the cited source. The source states 33.5m sales, but this page says 39.5m. Possibly has been changed to make it higher than Xbox 360 sales. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmichaelc ( talk • contribs) 10:48, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
The Playstation 3 hit total sales of 70 million on November 4th 2012 not Sept 30th and not 70.2 million. This article and many articles state the same http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/16/playstation-3-sales-70-million-units/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.81.94.70 ( talk) 21:04, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
There was a discussion on the VG Project talk page about merging Nintendo DS vs. PlayStation Portable console war into this article. Since the handheld article is since little progress and has been virtually untouched in a week, it is probably best to merge. Any objections? ( Guyinblack25 talk 14:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC))
The playstation is stated to have heavily outsold the xbox in the US,UK and Japan and yet the xbox is said to have sold more units worldwide. This seems hard to credit - especially as the US, UK and Japanese sales for the PS3 total more than the worldwide sales cited. This needs sorting out. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
90.196.107.39 (
talk)
22:51, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Though the word "partial" means not 100%, it usually implies a small amount when used normally. The Wii is in fact perfectly backwards compatible with the Gamecube, but that doesn't make it more efficient, the Gamecube was a very simple console with simple games. The Ps3 has to handle two libraries, the Ps2 being the more complicated one, because the games aren't as simple as Gamecube. With Gamecube the Wii just needed to handle half-sized disks that contain games with no internet play or USB controls, the Ps2 was both CD and DVD format games, most with online play and some with USB controls, they are also much older than the Ps3, especially Psx games. Ps3's backwards compatibilty is somewhere near 95%, and that's very good considering the extremely large amount of games in both Psx and Ps2's libraries. Another important note is that the article is outdated, It mentions the downloadable Nintendo and Xbox games, suggesting that there are no Playstation games in the PS Store. Subtalvik ( talk) 19:37, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
When anyone is updating sales numbers make sure you update the citations. As of Sept. 26, 2008 both the Canadian and American (and possibly other) home console sales citations for the current generation do not match the listed sales numbers. Lack of citations to back the numbers up renders the data unreliable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.243.44.223 ( talk) 18:39, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
In the section on the DS, the article states that the DS's power is comparable to the N64. The section on the PSP, however, states that it is "more powerful than the Nintendo DS, with graphical power comparable to being in between the original PlayStation and the PlayStation 2". I can't help but think this is a bit confusing, since graphical power in between the PSX and the PS2 would be the N64, surely? Perhaps something along the lines of saying the PSP's power approaches the PS2 or something similar would be more appropriate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.210.5 ( talk) 00:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Well between the psx and ps2 would leave it ahead of the n64 even if we just take the silly numbers of '32 bit', '64 bit' and '128 bit'. The N64 wasn't too much more powerful than the PSX with the PS2 quite far ahead of them both.-- 130.243.174.67 ( talk) 19:37, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Numbers were subject to vandalism, I corrected then to the numbers on the citations. 85.139.80.147 ( talk) 02:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I'd be interested in cleaning up and updating this article, It seems that this article needs some more sources to backup the current generations of consoles. Also I think that the catagories need to be streamlined instead of going from 16bit era, 32bit era to Sixth Generation, etc. Also, this entry needs to updated as it hasn't seen any real updates since 2009. Sat6-NJITWILL ( talk) 19:29, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Discussions relating to this article have been started at WP:ORN#Mega Drive/Genesis sales and WT:VG/RS#Brazilian fan/blogsite?. Please comment there if you have any useful input. Anomie ⚔ 18:32, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
A lot of the figures are from different years even in the same categories, I'm sure the data is out there somewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.88.131.247 ( talk) 15:18, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
User:Indrian claims that the reliable sources which are providing the information that the Sega Master System was sold 13 Million times have it wrong. On that assertion he has tried to completely remove the mentioning of the Sega Master System. The problem is that he does not provide any proof that the reliable sources have it wrong, so I reverted his edit. Perhaps he wants to provide proof of his assertions here. 16:20, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Currently, the sales totals only list the most recent sales to datem but isn't it a bit pointless ?
When people are talking about "console wars", the real interest is to know how consoles were ranked when the competition for this generation was actually relevant. For an example, the monthly PSP sales became superior to the DS one since the 3DS was released, because the potential DS base naturally moved to the successor. Displaying nowaday sales gives the wrong impression about DS and PSP respective popularity during the actual war.
Overall, we should have a list displaying sales as they were once the next generation started. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.136.41.119 ( talk) 04:20, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
Should the iPod Touch/iPhone/Android be counted as handheld systems? They have caused a significant revenue decrease for the established competitors by siphoning erstwhile market share from the Nintendo DS/Sony PSP lines. As such, I would think it just to include the systems in the wars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.255.165.155 ( talk) 05:03, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
This whole section is awful, full of unsubstantiated claims, personal opinion and wild speculation. It needs to be drastically overhauled or removed entirely. There are no sources cited in this whole section. To be honest, information on competition between smartphone and console markets doesn't seem like it belongs in this article. I'd support it being spun off into its own article, but it'd obviously have to be of a much higher quality to be worthwhile. - Dalziel 86 ( talk) 08:58, 12 December 2012 (UTC)