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"Film images are very difficult to fabricate"
-No they aren't. It's just as easy to photoshop a digital image and then convert it to film using a high definition projector. As long as the projected pixels are smaller than the silver grains, there is no way of telling whether the film has captured a "real" or projected image. Klafubra 16:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the main issue with sensor size is the degree of enlargement needed, noise is only an issue at higher ISO's, also there is the issue of hand prints, being that hand prints are likely to be more valuable than ink jets as they are literally printed by hand, they can be done digitally but then all the dodging burning can be done first in PS and is not done by hand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.68.10.42 ( talk • contribs)
Ill give you an example of what is meant by enlargement, with a digi P&S camera a 7x5" print is often a 25x enlargment over the size of the image that hit the sensor, with 35mm film in a compact it is only about 5x. 90.242.43.22 18:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
"With a smaller signal, the signal-to-noise ratio increases."
Is it correct? 86.104.40.65 ( talk) 22:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
The modification at http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Digital_versus_film_photography&diff=prev&oldid=186194634 reverses the meaning of the paragraph, but the citations given do not compare film dynamic range with digital, only list measured dynamic range of various digital camera models. I think we need to either support the contention that "As of early 2008, many current DSLRs offer a dynamic range that is as wide or wider than film" or revise it. Some references to consider:
which indicates BW negative film having 3.4D and typical DSLR 2.7D
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/NikonD1/page16.asp
which shows Nikon D100 with up to 2.8D
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=28480878
which disputes Clark's work and indicates at least 10 or 11 stops of density for Velvia 50. I'll check this article again in a few days and if it hasn't changed I may modify it. Thanks, CarsonWilson ( talk) 15:59, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I don't think anyone who shoots negative film can find any base in this particular part of the article, frankly it should be deleted. I have yet to see a DSLR match the DR of neg film, be it colour and most def not b&w. Simply pulling off review on DPreview isnt going to wash, they do no tests on film, so there is nothing to suggest that the statement is correct. In fact, it's utterly wrong!
Go ebay a film camera and some neg film, you. Film DR is miles ahead...miles
Barryfitzgerald ( talk) 14:43, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Since I received only positive response to my comments about dynamic range above, I went ahead and revised this section. Much more research in the area of film vs. digital needs to be done; for now I've cited the best references I know of. Let's have more experimental research and less talk on this topic! CarsonWilson ( talk) 13:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
The R. N. Clark Reference is out of date, both Velvia and Royal gold are obsolete, they already were when he did the test. AJUK Talk!! 10:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
This section is woefully in need of updating. The citations are now six to eight years old. Many new sensors with much higher DR have come on the market. RED, Nikon, Canon, Hasselblad etc. all produce cameras with 12 or more f-stops of DR, up to 16.5+ (Red Dragon). In practice, the very best professional print film doesn't get a much beyond 10-11 stops.
Finding unbiased citations from a primary source is challenging. DxO have been benchmarking both film and imagers, here's an article on how DxO compare digital vs film.
With a little digging, I think we can update this page to help readers answer the question of which medium is best for their needs, within a context that includes products released in the past few years. I'll start posting some sources and edits here ... soon. - Plausible deniability ( talk) 03:43, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
While grateful for much of Dick Lyons' assistance, I'm proposing we either replace the footnote changed by Lyons at
"Between digital and film, each format has advantages,[1]"
from the book citation as follows:
to the following book citation:
or at least add this latter citation.
My reason is much of the book excerpt cited by Lyons contradicts the overall purpose of the article as I see it, which is to put aside the idea that one format is simply superior and explain differences in a more substantive way. For example, the citation states,
"At this point in our evolution of silicon versus silver, the debate is no longer based on image quality. No longer is film considered to produce a superior result."
This contradicts the entire major section of this article entitled "Quality" which attempts to show differences in quality between the two formats and the reasons behind this without advocating for one side or the other.
Further, the cited book reference assigns film the sole advantage of archival reliability versus digital's "instant gratification," which can "render the debate [over film vs digital] a non starter," and its ability to change ISO and color temperature.
The citation I'm recommending replace this one isn't perfect either but I think it's less partial to digital capture, and serves better to legitimize the topic itself, which was the purpose of the citation. Thanks, CarsonWilson ( talk) 22:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
I've added the second reference (as 209.100.226.78), Mr. Lyon (sorry about the "s"). CarsonWilson ( talk) 16:04, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
This page has to many 'citation needed' tags? on some statements i fully agree as they could be debated but many are just attached to common sense statements or otherwise general ages-old photography knowledge ... -> example "Convenience and flexibility This has been one of the major drivers of the widespread adoption of digital cameras" who would debate that?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.235.206.160 ( talk • contribs)
About my statement about post processing, I think that's an important point to go in there. AJUK Talk!! 08:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Film Shots will often require little or no post processing by the photographer, this is often utilized by photographers wishing to just choose the appropriate film take photographs and then let the lab deal with the rest.
As some editors explained, this article isn't great and is mainly based on opinions and even if cited, not scientific reliable.
This paragraph is chaotic and not scientific. First, it should contain a table with resolution needed, compared to size and view distance.
To structure it, i propose to divide it into three logical parts:
(2 x Line-pairs/mm)² x Width x Length = Pixel
Thats the main thing. And that is a reolution beyond megapixels, even if the digital cameras would have the full sharpness. Sharpness is visible even beyond aliasing frequency > filter curve (contrast versus lp/mm) explained. Listed should here other effects (optical, measurement accuracy, exposure to light) reducing resolution.
Lets avoid "Clark Vision" for references on resolution seeing that he compares images scanned with consumer scanners to full fledged digital cameras and plus his scanners are outdated. Just because there is a nice looking graph does not mean he has the best information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vance&lance ( talk • contribs) 19:48, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Including a table with examples of line-pairs/mm (lp/mm) for different film types.
A 120 film scanned at 8000 ppi will yield a 324 megapixel image, not 50. The websites referenced do not correctly scan their film in the comparisons, scanning at lower than necessary resolutions and with scanners not capable of the maximum possible ppi. Yes, the scanned information is not all useful information, but neither is the information found in the megapixels of DSLRs. This part of the article is grossly inaccurate and if the author would attempt to print a very large print from a 8000 ppi drum scan from an Aztec Premier drum scanner (scanned by a skilled operator who would also match the aperture to the film grain) and do the same with a medium format DSLR file, the difference would be unmistakeably clear. Please fix this or explain that the statistics quoted were obtained by an amateur and not by any means a maximum as they poorly reflect the potential resolution of film.
Here the results should be compared. Interesting: Measurements of digital image sensors taken with analog measurement parameter: line-pairs/mm. I could provide this data if copyright is released.
Although probably this paragraph is short because it mainly cites the results above, to keep the neutral structure imho it is necessary to have this paragraph.
This section isn't great too. Not scientific, too many vague words.
The topic is not complex. Simple a ratio. But many things related to it. Opinions replaced with science should help. Figures help.
SNR effects, structure size effects and more scientific view missing.
This is my proposed concept, although not complete. Remarks welcome.
Wispanow (
talk) 08:10, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Goodness, do we still need a "cool head" header on this page? More to the point, I don't think we need warning headers at the top of the article, including the ref one that I dropped. My edit explanation was a canned one, and not as precise as should have been; I haven't figured out a brief way of saying the hatnote flag is unnecessary because the section flags or the inline flags that follow the various possibly dubious sentences are adequate to the job of summoning maintenance workers.
I'd also like to put something about old dogs and new tricks into the first paragraph. Something like, "Besides technological conservatism, ie the tendency of experienced practitioners to stick with techniques they mastered long ago rather than learn new methods, other reasons remain for continuing to use the old technology; the virtues of photochemical tools continue to make them appropriate for several particular niche applications." However, that's poor prose, barely grammatical, and perhaps impolitic or even not quite accurate. Me, I'm a newbie to photography, hence didn't learn the old ways, but I must give all respect to old masters who show that they know what they're doing while I stumble around in the dark.
Ken Rockwell? Love the guy; his advice has enlightened me. Pro or Amateur? Doesn't matter. But yes, it would be pleasant to replace some of his links, to the extent that more reliable yet as well-written sources can be found. Jim.henderson ( talk) 01:50, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
We must apply Wikipedia:Template messages judiciously, lest overzealousness slide into unproductive Wikipedia:Tag bombing. Far as I see, out of the several citations, precisely one is to Rockwell's site, which, if it were a bad citation, couldn't possibly be cured by a hatnote tag. The correct tag should be applied where it can accomplish good things, not simply pasted onto bad material without identifying the exact part and problem that should be repaired. And, as far as my limited topical knowledge allows me to see, the cited page doesn't say anything wrong. I have been a Wikipedia editor longer than a photographer, and an amateur writer far longer than that, so form rather than substance is where my skills have probable applicability to this and other photographical articles. Ah, well, can't spend more time on this as I must upload a few of last week's pix to Commons and attend to other editorial business before walking to the Wikipedia Meetup NYC at Columbia University, snapping churches or other targets along the way. Jim.henderson ( talk) 15:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
"There is no limit to the number of possible levels of colour on emulsion film,"
Sort of. However the noise level does limit the dynamic range. This is equally true with both number of colours and monochrome levels.
"whereas a digital sensor stores integer numbers, producing a limited and specific possible number of colours, resulting in banding and loss of detail, particularly in shadow and highlight areas."
There's normally no banding because the noise is greater than the output step size. Tabby ( talk) 08:39, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
I removed the following from the article on 26th September 2012, the reason I did so was that the text was predominantly OR, especially the camera price comparison, and cost per print comparison, which I felt were unfair in comparing new cameras to second-hand ones from online auctions:
Film cameras, on the other hand, are quite inexpensive to purchase, especially used equipment. But film and development costs are ongoing. If a new photographer is interested in learning about high end photography, film offers a great way to learn and experiment without the upfront costs associated with high end professional digital equipment.
Is Digital Cheaper Than Film? For someone who takes a lot of pictures and isn't concerned with having the latest and greatest equipment, the answer will usually be yes. But for learning photography, and casual photographers, film will generally be more cost efficient.
Take for example the cost of a new Nikon D700, a full frame DSLR, in 2012, a new body retails for $2700. But a used Nikon N90s can be purchased for as low as $25 on ebay. Both cameras have the same Aperture priority, Shutter priority, Manual & Program settings, Autofocus settings, have the same size 36 mm x 24 mm film plane, and can use the same lenses. So depth of field and image quality potential are virtually identical. If we use 50 cents per image as a cost factor for film developing, that would mean the break even cost is around 1350 prints. So a photographer who is expecting to take less than 1350 photos during the life of the camera will find a film SLR cheaper than a digital SLR while enjoying the same high end image quality. (Note: lens costs are not included here but would be similar for both cameras) The downside, of course, is that instruction manuals my not be present with used camera purchases and photo store sales staff may have limited knowledge of older film equipment so getting questions answered may be difficult for the new younger user of film.
I'm copying it here as the editor hasn't replied to me - our conversation can be found here. Cheers, Baffle gab1978 ( talk) 05:55, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
All KR refs should be removed as they are notoriously unreliable. Refer http://www.kenrockwell.com/about.htm quote: This website is my way of giving back to our community. It is a work of fiction, entirely the product of my own imagination. This website is my personal opinion. To use words of Ansel Adams on page 193 of his autobiography, this site is my "aggressive personal opinion," and not a "logical presentation of fact." KymFarnik ( talk) 01:46, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
This article needs serious help. A lot of references are 5+ years old. Technology has changed (and is changing rapidly) and as a result assessments made even 2 years ago are invalid today. Eg: ISO noise performance and dynamic range of the Pentax K-5 or Nikon D7000 (same sensor), or Nikon D4 or D800, or Canon 1D C a 1D X show the point. KymFarnik ( talk) 01:58, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
User:NickCochrane just reverted my change, reinserting a Kodak study from 2007 as "current" and "scientific" and "consensus". Clearly, anything in the digital era that is six years old cannot by any means be called "current". An article that does not reference its methods cannot be called "scientific". What one commercial company publishes cannot be called "consensus". In addition User:NickCochrane added an even older blogpost from 2006 as further support for the questionable statements.
I'm not going to start an edit war here, but there may be other people who agree with me that six year old sources are of nil value here. If so and you add a supportive comment here on the talk page and possibly revert User:NickCochrane's changes, I think that would improve the truth level of the article considerably. -- Mlewan ( talk) 16:50, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
No I didn't view the videos on zacuto.com; I had neither the time nor the patience to sit through a pile of videos, though i may do so at some point, so thanks for the link. I agree with Dicklyon (below); we can say "According to zacuto.com..." or similar, but we can't cite it as a scientific study; same for the Kodak link. Please stay calm and watch your language on WP; calling people 'crazy' and 'nazi' is a personal attack and can be construed as incivility. Cheers, Baffle gab1978 ( talk) 20:17, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
I looked at the refs. The Kodak paper is obviously bullshit, and as a primary source with stupid claims should not be cited. The videos are more interesting, primary sources, good info, and can be cited for the opinions there. But not in the lead, and not as support for a claim of consensus. That would need at least a good secondary source. Dicklyon ( talk) 15:44, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
I removed these references, and the text supported by them, from the header; these are primary sources which don't reflect a consensus. The Kodak source (discussed above) is promotional bullshit.
Some sources say that negative film currently has higher resolution, image quality<ref>http://www.zacuto.com/the-great-camera-shootout-2011/episode-two</ref>, latitude<ref>http://www.zacuto.com/the-great-camera-shootout-2011/episode-one</ref>, dynamic range<ref>http://www.zacuto.com/the-great-camera-shootout-2011/episode-one</ref> and information than digital image capture.<ref name="motion.kodak.com">http://www.motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/US_plugins_acrobat_en_motion_education_film_info.pdf</ref>
Cheers, Baffle gab1978 ( talk) 00:39, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
Could someone go over the Zacuto movies in detail and validate them against the text in the article? I do not have the additional hours of my life to do it myself, but I browsed through them and found no support for what the article currently says: "Film consistently was measured at having the highest dynamic range and latitude". While some commentators claimed film was best for certain cases (like blown out highlights), many of the commentators praised digital compared to film.
Besides, the article should not say "in-depth, and complex study", as there is no independent reliable source verifying that they are in-depth and complex. And the article should mention which year the study took place (2011). -- Mlewan ( talk) 06:26, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
I did some updates that correspond to my impression of the Zacuto videos. NickCochrane made some further updates, but I think the paragraph could be further improved.
I'm thinking of removing this item altogether. The study is out of date using out of date cameras. The single user attempting to input this has been on a "film is better" crusade for a couple of months now painstakingly trying to find sources that "prove" his POV like the blatant WP:COI Kodak and even a film movie theatre owner. This item only comes from POV-pushing.-- Oakshade ( talk) 22:56, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to remove this, as others expect this one user seem in agreement. It's an apples oranges comparison that uses out of date cameras that are generally "prosumer" models by an obscure camera accessory maker. It was placed with POV-pushing to boot. Look out for socks, possibly LenaLeonard, Etobgirl, CinephileMatt or perhaps a newly created sock account.-- Oakshade ( talk) 17:51, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Digital camera is fast to be obsoleted and also the article about digital camera is. IMO the Section of Cost should be updated. I propose the Section of Cost to change with:
Film and digital imaging systems have different cost emphases. Digital cameras image result can be deleted anytime, if we are not happy with the image and then shoot again. It make digital camera overall cost is cheaper than film cameras. Film cameras are quite inexpensive to purchase, especially used equipment. But film and development costs are ongoing. However, in the digital realm, it could be argued that the constant state of technological change will cause a digital user to keep upgrading and buying other equipment once their digital camera becomes quickly obsolete. [1] Other costs of digital photography include specialist batteries, memory cards and long-term data storage. Inkjet printers can make more quality prints and easily from digital files than (kioks) photo-print which only has up to 300-360dpi resolution whatever the Mega Pixels you have, but commonly inkjet printer can only print up to A4 print size. Gsarwa ( talk) 06:39, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Thank you so much for your consideration. I see that almost all about photography articles is based on film cameras. Certainly is not wrong when it are initial written, because at that moment the digital photography is initial to grow, but today certainly all be different. One thing maybe forgotten that digital camera has propietary processor software and it still progressing, while sensor progress has limitation and also the lens. The future is software and not hardware anymore as Nokia did with its PureView data binning. Panasonic FZ70 Bridge camera has followed Nokia. Maybe today digital cameras only need UV filter for lens protection and circular polarizing. Some cameras has more than 100 creative filters and the propietary processor software can reduce barrel distortion of wide-angle lens and as reverse the processor can make barrel distortion of long zoom image. ND filter also can be simulated with reduce the sensitivity of the sensor. In digital camera the important thing is sensor quality (not directly means the size), the second is software (there are possibilty open source Android software will be adopted), and the last is lens quality. Why the lens is the third, not the first as in film camera, because many superior and inferior things of the lens can be corrected/simulated by software. In DxO Labs article, some I have mention above can be read, at least as general knowledge. Gsarwa ( talk) 04:40, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Hello, this article describes the technical differences between digital and film technologies. But it lacks a section on aesthetics, that is, what kinds of effects the technologies cause or prevent, and how they allow or prevent to use them intentionally for artistic purposes. Thank you! -- 179.25.161.169 ( talk) 14:43, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Did a cursory read looking for resolution equivalents between film and digital and did not see anything so is this info else where (i.e. SEE ALSO) or is the info still somewhere in the article? Septagram ( talk) 19:52, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
I happened to be reading this article to see whether it discussed comparisons of film grain and digital pixel density. The article states " A medium format film image can record an equivalent potential of approximately 400 megapixels,[8] while large format films can record considerably larger (4 × 5 inch) which equates to around 800 megapixels on the largest common film format, 8 × 10 inches, without accounting for lens sharpness.[9]" with two different sources. These pixel numbers are not proportional to the area of these film formats, so something's not right here. We need some reasoned definitions, explanations and data. SPECIFICO talk 20:55, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
A new section on the relative environmental impacts of film photography & digital photography would be appropriate in this article. However there appears to be scant verifiable literature on the subject, so an expert input would be very welcome as it would involve gathering contemporary data from a number of sources. Jamesmcardle (talk) 00:03, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
I don't believe the current title reflects the spirt of WP:NPOVTITLE and is also unencyclopedic and inconsistent. "Comparison of digital and film photography" would be a much better title, in the vein of Comparison of text editors and such. FiduciaryAkita ( talk) 05:53, 2 September 2020 (UTC)