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This section takes a simple idiom to absurd levels of literalness. Rather than describing a general area, it implies that the bells make people speak Cockney, and then all but wonders aloud how the accent could exist when the bells didn't ring. I am deleting the paragraph. -- 99.24.170.188 ( talk) 15:03, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
This article should probably be refocused to deal exclusively with the dialect. The cockney area section is original research and poorly sourced. MRSC ( talk) 08:15, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
I agree with the above about Cockney area selection. The article implies that when the original church of St Mary-le-bow was destroyed there would have been no cockney area until a new church was built. Likewise, if a new, bigger bell was installed the area would increase in size. Both of these conclusions I think are wrong. My father was born into the East End in 1908, and he and my grandmother both used to say (back in the 1950s) that a cockney was someone born with the sound of the bells of the original (destroyed) church of St Mary-le-bow. So as far as they and other residents of the area were concerned, even though the church no longer existed it was a clearly defined area - and quite a small one at that. Pvandck 09:59, 21 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pvandck ( talk • contribs)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.121.173.156 ( talk) 14:23, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
I trimmed some unreferenced lists form this article. There are a number of problems with this type of material. WP:V is the most basic one; if there are references to somebody being a "notable cockney" or whatever then we cold consider it, but we can't just list unverifiable info like this. -- John ( talk) 18:36, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
¶ Should the actor Bob Hoskins be on the list of famous cockneys? He certainly has made a career of the speech pattern even if he wasn't born & raised in the right neighborhood. Sussmanbern ( talk) 07:10, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
The article ought to have audio examples of the features mentioned. For us who are linguists or professional language users already, the IPA won't pose any problems, but for the layman they would. Ideally therefore, for instance, the T-glottalization should have an accompanying audio file playing both the RP pronunciation and the Cockney. After all, aren't we writing for the general public? :) -- NuclearWarhead ( talk) 20:44, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
As a layman, I would greatly appreciate that. XD 98.217.230.157 ( talk) 01:27, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
My mother was born at the Royal London Hospital on Whitechapel Road in the east end. I noticed that it was not mentioned in the "Cockney area" section, although it must be one of the closest hospitals to St. Mary-le-Bow. Is there not a maternity ward there any more? I had a look on the website, and it says that there is a "new maternity unit". I'm guessing that it was shut for a while. Unless anyone has any objections, I suggest that this hospital be added to the "Cockney area" section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Epa101 ( talk • contribs)
Home births and delivery by midwifes were very common until quite recently so the attribution of being born in certain hospitals is over emphasized. 198.144.208.148 ( talk) 17:36, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
Why don't you mention the elision of the r before other consonants? It is very important. I mean we are not talking about a stupid vowel that lack but we are talking about a consonant and one of the most used in the english language the R. You change entirely the meaning of phrases in english when you don't pronunce the R in english. I insert the r elision in the characteristics of cockney english and I put as the First characteristic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.1.36.241 ( talk) 00:14, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
To my ears, the Iron Maiden bassist has one of the broadest Cockney accents amongst famous people. He was born in Leytonstone, which is not far from central London but it was in Essex historically. Does he count as a Cockney? Epa101 ( talk) 10:47, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
There must be some mistake. Jack White (comedian) is mentioned, but the link goes to Jack White (musician) who was born in Michigan. On the disambiguation page of Jack Whites, there is none being english comedian. Gutek ( talk) 17:00, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Th-fronting is a core part of Cockney speech.[77] Th-fronting, L-vocalization and T-glottalization can now be found in every county of England (with L-vocalization being largely absent from Northern England),[78][79][80][81][82] whereas before the 1960s the only Cockney feature that was common to all of England, except for much of East Anglia, North East England, Yorkshire and Lancashire was H-dropping.[83][84][85] However, Clive Upton has noted that these features have occurred independently in some other dialects, such as TH-fronting in Yorkshire and L-vocalisation in parts of Scotland.[86]
I have several points about this:
Jeffers772 has removed a number of notable cockney speakers without explanation, presumably because they do not originate from the area he/she has defined in a recent edit (without any supporting citation). This now contradicts existing material in the 'Area' section which defines the cockney area more loosely than the traditional definition. The way people speak, and how that evolves over time, is not constrained by artificial boundaries. The article does need to be consistent. Peteinterpol ( talk) 11:37, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
Is the Isle of Dogs as a whole in the Cockney area? It's in the east end, but parts of it are a long way from the Bow Bells. Millwall is listed in the article, but the other parts of the Isle are not. 84.103.11.17 ( talk) 08:31, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Some speakers of this accent (as well as some other accents e.g. Scouse, Geordie) seem to be using variants of /s, z/ that, at least to my ears, are laminal, somewhat palatalized and somewhat lower-pitched in comparison to what one can hear in RP. In IPA, I'd transcribe these as [s̻ʲ, z̻ʲ] or even [ɕ̟, ʑ̟]. Acoustically, they are really similar to what one can hear in Netherlandic Dutch (especially Randstad). — Peter238 ( v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 16:28, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
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Notable People
Barry Sheene, motor cycle world champion. Born Grays inn Road, Holborn Elizabeth Stokes, 18th century female bare knuckle fighter .Born Clerkenwell Arthur Mullard,Comedy Actor Born Islington.
Terry Naylor, ex professional footballer. Born Islington. Charlie George ex professional footballer. Born Islington. Charles "darby" Sabini. British gang land leader.Born, Saffron Hill,clerkenwell. Daniel Defoe, Author, journalist ,spy .Born St Giles Cripplegate.
Norflondoner (
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11:13, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
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Please change "...St Mary-le-Bow in East London's Cheapside district..." to "...St Mary-le-Bow in the City of London's Cheapside district..." Johntetlow ( talk) 09:03, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
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The scope for notable Cockney speakers seems to be broader than it used to be. Now that we are including speakers from east of the Lea, how about Billy Bragg? To my ears, he sounds very Cockney, but others might disagree. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYgquyb20Vc
(And after the four-minute mark here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M9DC2DFtGs )
Epa101 ( talk) 16:46, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
What about those Guy Ritchie gangster movie Snatch (film) and Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels for the film section as more recent examples?-- Kmhkmh ( talk) 12:59, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Could somebody please add a brief explanation of what "broad Cockney" means? -- Backinstadiums ( talk) 11:11, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Bob Hoskins was actually born in Bury St. Edmonds in Suffolk, but this seems to have been a result of unusual circumstances for a couple of weeks. Even as a very young child, he lived in London. He is widely cited as an example of the cockney accent. Can we not allow him?
Here are some references for this:
With so many references, I'd say that we shouldn't exclude Hoskins just because something strange around his birth caused him to be born in Suffolk instead of where they were actually living in London. Epa101 ( talk) 14:03, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
This is said to be slang for a punch. As I have heard it, it means a backhander, that is, a slap with the back of the hand. It it called that as in a regular slap with front of the hand, the palm is often moist. Could we have some references for the right definition, whatever it is? 5.148.149.200 ( talk) 12:57, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Being a resident, rather than a linguist, I would argue that much of the discussion on this article describes features that are shared with various sub-dialects and accents of working class London - not all of which derive from East London.
North London and South London dialects in the '60s and early '70s were strongly distinguishable from East London and Cockney - though a lot of the dialect was shared - for instance, using a common verb regardless of subject and object e.g., "I'll learn you how to speak proper" (sort of "Ow lern ya æ te speek propa") , using -ed (sometimes redundantly) as a suffix for past tense structures: "He was dead-ed". "I learned-ed that off of my nan" (I need to learn IPA) - it was more like "ah lernded tha' offa mi nan"); all of these being common in both North and South London.
In fairness, there were distinctions to be made between various subdistricts of London - but I personally only developed any familiarity with those where I lived or worked: Tooting, Fulham, Pimlico, Brixton, Camberwell, and Holloway.
Each of these district accents and dialects was completely distinguishable. Brixton was the first place I heard "arks" for "ask" - which is now common MLE.
I know of know secondary sources for any of the above - just personal experience. But, and it's reasonable, given the population and area of London, it should come to no surprise that there have always been several dialects within it, many of which share commonalities with Cockney. ( 20040302 ( talk) 09:52, 16 December 2021 (UTC))
Why the overformatting with italics and bold? Near "The definition" and "Cockney is a dialect".
The same on the disambiguation page.
-- Mortense ( talk) 00:01, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
In response to the undo of this edit, @ DeptfordLegend: Looking back at it, I realize I could've been more specific with my edit summary, though I probably kept it short just because of how much was changed. Looking back at it, I do think "Shortened descriptions" gets the basic point across that some of those are too long; I'm looking at DABSHORT and SDSHORT as examples for how best to handle this. On top of that, some entries are non-neutral (e.g. Michael Caine's "legendary award-winning actor considered a film icon" is a lot of praise which should be saved for the appropriate section of Caine's article, with proper sourcing and attribution) and definitely need the cleanup. I don't see this as "key info" as you put it, hence why I removed it and why I still think it shouldn't be there. QuietHere ( talk | contributions) 22:11, 20 May 2024 (UTC)