![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It looks like the Hedonism article already has some information about Christian Hedonism (halfway into this section; maybe we can use some of what's there? And to start brainstorming how the article will look sooner or later, I'm thinking that we'll need something along the lines of a roots/history section, a beliefs/doctrine section, and something along the lines of a "criticisms" section. *stretches* Anyway, it's so great to see this a blue link, finally! ^_^ Weien 06:58, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
![]() | The
neutrality of this article is
disputed. |
No strong criticisms of Christian hedonism are given; the only criticisms appear to be taken from Piper's book and accompanied by his defences.
Perhaps the wording of the Kant reference should be cleared up a little: First off, Kant's deontological ethics ("duty [...] which embraces nothing charming nor insinuating, but requires submission") - while widely appreciated by scholars - aren't, to the best of my knowledge, a basis for the ethical stances of any mainstream Christian denominations (It's often said - though I can't find a source - that Kant marks the point where philosophy and theology, which had once been largely one and the same, finally diverged). Rather than just cover the deontological objection to hedonism, it might be a bit more enlightening to cover a broader range of theological objections within the wider context of the article.
Personally, I'm woefully uninformed about Christian Hedonism, which is why I'm commenting here rather than taking it upon myself to edit this myself. I look forward to seeing the article once it's more expanded. Idp 13:08, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Having read through a significant amount of the publications on Christian Hedonism (pro and con), I have not yet found anyone who objects to it based on a Kantian stance. So far as I have been able to determine, only Dr. John Piper (the one who came up with Christian Hedonism) asserts that people reject his philosophy because of Kant. I think Piper is mistaken in this. Most objections actually seem to be grounded on the basis that Piper makes pleasure (hedonism) a massive concern but that the Bible only gives pleasure a mere glancing and negative notice. I would be comfortable with removing the phrase that refers to Kant. Wikifish7 20:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I also do not understand why this article places such an emphasis on Kant's deontology. Discounting Kant's view of ethics really has nothing to do with establishing Christian Hedonism. There are many other prominent theories on what constitutes 'Good', such as Aristotle's or Aquinas'. And from what I have seen, the content of Christian Hedonism seems to be closely related to the ethical theory of John Locke, if anything I would think Locke's theory should be mentioned. I also think that this section contains excessive quotation, and the Lewis one is especially out of place as he was never a proponent of 'Christian Hedonism.' Ccehlers 19:55, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Why is the page being changed back when I edit it? Im posting nothing but articles that relate to it by John Piper himself.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.91.46.9 ( talk • contribs)
Ok, so it says its a stub, and to expand on it. So i expanded. I dont understand. What kind of site is this?!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.91.46.9 ( talk • contribs)
It should also state that most Christians are opposed to it. I'm not a Christian myself, in fact I've been a Deist since the age of 12, but Christianity for me still holds value in the values of Stoicism that it promotes, personally I feel that shifting these values to support ones own rather shaky moral ground is rather pointless, people can be a Christian or they can be a Hedonist, the two are mutually exclusive.
Hedonists also tend to have a great love for Modernism, including, but not limited to, such perverse artforms as Modern Music and Modern and Post-Modern Art.
Penecost wrote: "Sure, most Christians are opposed, because of the mentality passed over by the previous christians, whose philosophies delt mostly with suffering, trials, sin, punishment, etc." I do not believe that the writings I have read objecting to Christian hedonism give the same reason for disagreement as you have cited. Most of the objections seem to center on the notion that the phrase "pursue pleasure" (in anything or anyone) simply is absent from the Bible at all. The articles I have read indicate that "pursue pleasure in God" is not even a command much less one of highest priority. Most of the objections I have seen are that Piper has created an undue emphasis on pleasure. Recall that Jesus said the greatest of all commands was "love God." I would be cautious about citing reasons why people object to Piper without adequate research that would confirm such opinions. Wikifish7 - October 30, 2006
i changed "Apologists for Christian hedonism..." to "Advocates of Christian hedonism...", because i think the word "apologists" has negative connotations, adding POV. hope folks agree. Murderbike 20:16, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Whoutz deleted and rewrote the entire article, censoring out all but biased and positive comments unabashadly promoting hedonism. This is evidenced by new wording such as hedonism "is a sound biblical concept" and POV comments such as "many confuse Christian Hedonism with hypocricy and mistakenly believe..." without references to support the biased comments. He has also deleted all links to references and sites which evaluate or question the validity of the Christian hedonism. This type of censorship would appear to be more than simple presentation of the fact that multiple perspectives exist, but a suppression of the same. Rather than attempt to add back all the links and thoughtful edits of the contributors over the past year, I am reverting the article back to February 11, 2007. If Whoutz would like to add to that article, explaining why Christian Hedonsim is beyond fault, fine, but censorship should not be permitted. Wikifish7 20:00, 26 February 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wikifish7 ( talk • contribs) 19:59, 26 February 2007 (UTC).
The links weren't credible, so I replaced them with direct links to Christian Hedonism by John Piper. The previous revision was biased and had weasel words, and needed to be rewritten to accurately describe Christian Hedonism. I have included several direct quotes from the reference page. Its more important to get an accurate description, and after it has been well described, a criticism section could be considered. My quotations from Rand and Kant are important to understanding hedonism.
Wyatt
20:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I have requested moderation of this page by an administrator. Please be careful with your revisions. thx Wyatt 20:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
As the Wiki guidelines suggest, editing is open, and ego is to be avoided. As I pointed out earlier, the text you wrote contains unsupported assertions which appear to be value judgements. I have no intention of getting into an editing war and have left your re-reverted version. I have revised some of the most obvious POV words (e.g. the claim that hedonism is a "sound biblical concept" when in fact that is highly debateable) with the more factual statement that it is a philosophy. I would encourage you to find valid references to support your comments that "many Christians" are "confused" by hedonism and think Piper disregards the Bible--in fact I have not seen one credible article which states such things. In fact, most of the credible articles bringing issue with Christian hedonism highlight the fact that hedonism is unbalanced in its emphasis on the pursuit of pleasure. All the best to you. Wikifish7 22:19, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
In reformed theology, this is a sound concept and endorsed by many reformed theologians such as DA Carson and Trinity International University. So i'm sure it could be worded better. Wiki's guidelines requires no original research, so its important to quote reliable resources such as desiring god, for accurate information. Granted, my addition is to be improved upon, not reverted. Wyatt 22:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not understand how Christian Hedonism is "in opposition to the Objectivism of Ayn Rand," or how the Piper quote is a disagreement with Objectivism. On the contrary, Objectivism agrees with Piper in condemning disinterested morality, and in affirming that morality indeed rationally self-interested. I think Rand would have praised the Christian who moved from Kantian ethics to Christian Hedonism. The only opposition I can see is that Rand was an atheist and so disagreed on the source of ethics, but I don't see how the ethic itself is any different. Jgompert ( talk) 20:06, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Re the bibliography of the article: Rand's collection of essays was For the New Intellectual, not For the Intellectual, as is cited. 45750born ( talk) 14:27, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
I know Piper coined the term, but has anyone else done any significant work in this area? It would be great if we could find some other proponents of Christian Hedonism and add their perspectives--otherwise this article could probably just be merged into John Piper. It would also be good to expand the criticism section with some cited information on how this philosophy is received by other leading theologians and scholars who may not agree with Piper. I will add any information I can as I come across it in my reading. I feel like a tourist ( talk) 14:43, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Piper seems to be based on Ayn Rand, who is considered an ethical egoist. I believe Christian hedonism could be classified as a form of universal ethical hedonism. However, I don't see sources comparing or contrasting the two. If anyone could find such a source, it would be great for this article. Sondra.kinsey ( talk) 02:40, 3 April 2017 (UTC)