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The writer of this entry on Chinatown, Houston said that it has been an area of settlement for Chinese Mexicans. I assume this is a more recent population of Chinese Mexicans that has settled since the 1970's or so. Historically, Chinese Mexicans preferred El Paso and San Antonio.
I'd like to know where the writer got his/her info on the Chinese Mexicans settling in the Bellaire Chinatown area. I'd like to know how many Chinese Mexicans the writer believes live in the Bellaire Chinatown of Houston. And I'd like to know when they settled and what they do.
I am the editor of a Univ of Texas book on the history of Asian Americans in Texas, and I found your Wikipedia website very useful for this neighborhood-related information.
Thank you for helping me.
Irwin Tang
(the above un-dated reply seems to be from "[as edited by] 70.112.217.143 ( talk) at 14:23, 1 January 2005" ... although since it was sorta "signed" -- in one sense -- [but, NOT using quadruple tilde characters ... aka "~" characters ... oopsie!] ... by "Irwin Tang", -- therefore, that person [Irwin Tang] probably did have [use] ["correspond to"] that IP address ... at that time.)
Honestly, I would take every information found on Wikipedia with a grain of salt. I wouldn't rely on Wikipedia as a source, especially for a scholarly book.
(the above un-dated reply seems to be from ["16:18, 5 February 2005"] (see the "diff" listing of the edit, at that date and time) ... and was not signed at all, ... but appears, [according to the "diff" listing] to have been from someone usign the IP address 24.205.182.21.)
I am just taking a GUESS here, but maybe the intent of that comment about "an area of settlement for Chinese Mexicans" ... was really intended to say, ... something more like: that it had been an area of settlement for Chinese AND Mexicans.
If so, then ... "no comment" from me about whether the writer who might have left out the word "and", ... might have been a speaker of English as a second or foreign language (" ESL"). If "mistakes were made", then ... "never mind!" why they were made.
My point is just that, "an area of settlement for Chinese Mexicans" might have been "one word away from" saying what was really intended, and ... if so ... then ... what was really intended, might have been something more like: "[...] Chinese AND Mexicans".
Just an idea. -- Mike Schwartz ( talk) 06:02, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Can anyone provide a better photo? This blurry one, shot through a dirty windshield, is not very descriptive of the subject. SteveHopson 17:46, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Here is the direct link to the Chronicle map http://images.chron.com/photos/2007/05/09/0509asiatown/0509asiatown.jpg WhisperToMe ( talk) 16:33, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
As shown here, Town Park and Westline do have Chinese names. WhisperToMe ( talk) 01:04, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
WhisperToMe ( talk) 21:02, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
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Communities may be defined differently for different purposes and it is difficult and limiting to try to designate one as the official one. The economic influence of Koreatown, Los Angeles was recognized, especially along business corridors, but small, mainly residential neighborhoods did not want the city to lose their local voice on city issues by being included in a large Koreatown designation. The "official" boundaries were limited in order to take this into account. Planners might use one map for economic development and another for residential development that overlap each other. Maybe the situation is similar here. Fettlemap ( talk) 03:56, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
When I first saw the second sentence of the first paragraph, [of this article], it said:
It is roughly bounded by Fondren Road, Beechnut Street, State Highway 6, and Westpark Drive, and lies between Alief and the city of Bellaire.
and that -- (especially the part about having State 6 as its western boundary) -- did not sound right to me.
I was looking at this specific version (the "18:52, 15 December 2017" version) of the article ... which was the most recent version, at the time when these comments were written.
I had recently been looking on Google Maps, which seemed to disagree with (or "have a different 'take' on") those boundaries ... especially the western boundary.
I am not necessarily putting Google Maps on a pedestal, nor saying that anything that disagrees with that web site should be changed to agree with it.
However, if the main (or the only) reason for disagreement, is some TYPO (or other un-intentional mistake), (e.g. in the second sentence of this article), then IMHO it might be appropriate to consult any available source of information, including Google Maps -- and/or maybe even including asking someone who lives in Southwest Houston! -- in order to help figure out what was originally intended (/slash, what is really true).
I had already looked (on January 22, 2018) at the web page that came up, on my ChromeBox desktop computer (which is similar to a ChromeBook laptop ... I think they both use [almost?] the same "ChromeOS" ... and [almost?] the same Chrome browser) when one enters the URL https://www.google.com/maps/place/Chinatown,+Houston,+TX+77036/ into the "location" window.
(Disclosure: the above mentioned URL (ending with "77036/") "changes" all by itself, to -- or maybe it automatically "forwards" to? -- a much longer URL, -- "such as:" this one -- but that [longer] URL is so long that it is probably not appropriate for inclusion in the "displayable" text of a "Talk:" page. [I hope it will be forgiven, that it is even in the wikitext.])
Feel free to try it for yourself. When I tried it (on January 22, 2018), the "boundaries" shown -- (by
Google Maps, that is) -- (for "place/Chinatown,+Houston,+TX+77036"
) ... were: approximately as follows:
I noticed that the main point of disagreement, was regarding the WEST boundary. The article ("as of" the "18:52, 15 December 2017" version) says [see e.g. the first "<blockquote>d" 'quote' above] that the WEST boundary is State Highway 6 -- a disagreement of over five miles. There is little or no disagreement about the NORTH and SOUTH boundaries, and the disagreement about the EAST boundary (Fondren vs. Gessner or "just slightly east of Gessner") ... is only about a mile.
Another clue might be, the sentence (at the end of the first paragraph of this article) that says:
Portions of Chinatown lie within the Southwest (formerly Greater Sharpstown), International, and Westchase management districts.
This might help to suggest whether Chinatown really extends all the way West to Texas State Highway 6 ("State 6") or whether (as Google Maps seems to conclude) it ends ... more like ... right on the East side of Beltway 8.
Unless there are some responses here, within about a week or so ... I might just go ahead and ... edit the article. Now's your chance! -- Mike Schwartz ( talk) 09:30, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
That is a quoteAccording to the Greater Houston Convention and Visitors Bureau (GHCVB) it is roughly bounded by Fondren Road, Beechnut Street, State Highway 6, and Westpark Drive, and lies between Alief and the city of Bellaire.
would even be so good as to ... [be willing to] provide-- (if they think that their data is more accurate than the lede of the Wikipedia article) --
some published "reliable source" info-- (perhaps by linking to it? or ... by pointing to it in some way) (maybe even via a link to something in " Google Books"?) --
to help some energetic editor to [be able to] edit in an "update" or a change -- perhaps with a footnote! -- to "correct" the lede of this article. ("if appropriate".)-- [maybe even the exact "reliable source" info that they themselves rely on?] --
Update I checked the Google Maps definition - it "is* the Greater Southwest Management District's map WhisperToMe ( talk) 19:04, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
There is a clear consensus that the management district's definition of "Chinatown" should not take precedence over other definitions like those from local media. There is a clear consensus that the lead should not be restricted to using only the management district's definition of "Chinatown".
Editors were divided between whether that should mean having both the management district's definition and the Houston Chronicle's definition of Chinatown in the lead (as proposed by WhisperToMe) or having a single, more vague description in the lead (as suggested by Oldsanfelipe2). I encourage editors to discuss these two options further in a separate RfC as many RfC participants did not state which option they preferred so it was not possible to determine which option has consensus.
The question is whether the lead of the article should only mention definitions of Chinatown from local government bodies, or whether it should mention other definitions of Chinatown quoted by secondary sources such as newspapers.
WhisperToMe ( talk) 23:58, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
@ ParaguaneroSwag: There is a Houston Chronicle article that uses a wider definition of Chinatown from the Greater Houston Convention and Visitors' Bureau (GHCVB), a non-profit organization that contracts with the City of Houston, that includes an ethnic Vietnamese area west of (outside) Beltway 8 in its definition of "Chinatown". The article itself notes that there are multiple ethnicities in the area and that there were proposals/views to label the area "Asiatown" and the like instead. The area east of (inside) Beltway 8 is more ethnic Chinese.
There is a more restrictive definition from the Southwest Management District (formerly the Greater Sharpstown District), a special district established by the Texas Legislature, that excludes the ethnic Vietnamese area and generally only includes the Chinese area, although the boundaries of the district end at Beltway 8; the Vietnamese area is inside another management district, the International District, and the GSMD cannot include areas in its definition that are not within the district. I am not aware of the City of Houston (meaning the city government) nor of Harris County explicitly defining Chinatown itself.
The other party argues that the GHCVB is not a government body and that it cannot be counted as "official". The other party argues that only "official" definitions should be used/quoted in the article, and that the GHCVB one should be excluded from consideration in the article. The other party states that " Little Saigon, Houston " has no official boundaries but is popularly established through the International district street signs.
I argue that the article should consider any definition that is either from a government body or one quoted in a secondary source (say a newspaper article), and that the more expansive GHCVB definition should be considered as the Chronicle has used it. I also argue that any articles/content supporting the status of " Little Saigon, Houston " being a distinct area need written, published sources saying so. Because of the fact that popular definitions of neighborhoods differ from person to person, it may be true that "Little Saigon, Houston" may be both "independent" and "a part of Chinatown/Asiatown" at the same time, and that this differs based on agency/organization.
Previous discussion is in these places:
Thanks! WhisperToMe ( talk) 23:58, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
"The question is whether the lead of the article should only mention definitions of Chinatown from local government bodies, or whether it should mention other definitions of Chinatown quoted by secondary sources such as newspapers."
I think there's a third alternative here: have a single, more vague description in the lead. The Lisa Gray article cited makes the point that "Chinatown" is at least partly a branding exercise. Though the article does not mention it, the Southwest Management District used to be called the Sharpstown Managment district, demonstrating that the managment districts are involved in branding areas themselves. In any case, I see no reason why the management district's definition of "Chinatown" should take precedence over others. The lead could describe Chinatown as "an area in far southwest Houston centered by part of the upper Bellaire Boulevard corridor, with many differing ideas about its boundaries and relationships to other neighborhoods." Just another option to consider. Oldsanfelipe2 ( talk) 17:42, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
Pinging some other Houston-area editors and other interested parties @ Mike Schwartz: @ Hourick: @ Postoak: @ Brianreading: @ Another Believer: @ Nsaum75: @ Broadmoor: ( User:RJN hasn't edited since 2017) to get more diverse feedback if desired. WhisperToMe ( talk) 19:08, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
I hope that some consensus can be reached.
I agree with "some or all" of the suggestions above ... especially the "third alternative" mentioned in the last paragraph of the comments from "
Oldsanfelipe2 (
talk)" that are shown with a date/time stamp of "
17:42, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
". IMHO moving some of the details to a different part of the article -- not trying to "do it all" in the lead -- probably makes sense. I also like the idea of mentioning -- (maybe even in the lede^H^H^H^H lead) -- the fact that there seem to be a variety of "differing ideas about its boundaries". Maybe there should even be a mention, there, of the fact that more details are given later, in a different part of the article.
I did not read all of " Third Ward, Houston#Boundaries" (which was mentioned by -- and, apparently, written or edited by -- " WhisperToMe" ... see e.g. the " 18:34, 18 March 2020 (UTC)" entry, above, here on this "Talk:" page); but ... the part about "They are cultural entities today, not legal entities" is an important point. Sometimes things change, and the definitions of "legal entities" -- (or other [more or less] "official" definitions) -- may or may not "keep up" promptly with some of the ('evolving') ways of using language.
("By the way":)
There is also a lot that could be said -- (but maybe not [all] here) -- about the extent to which documenting changes (e.g. over time, or from one group to another, or from one place to another) in the use of language ... may tend to be challenging, partly because some speakers (or authors) may feel free to choose their own favorite way of talking or writing ... which may be done with a lot or a little (or, no) regard for "official" pronouncements or edicts. (See e.g. the
Quora section about the "difference between descriptive and prescriptive grammar" ... at
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-descriptive-and-prescriptive-grammar).
IMHO it is probably not the job of this Wikipedia article to mediate between multiple purveyors of "boundary definitions", nor to try to promote one definition over another. Helping readers to be able to learn what the possibilities are, (of what is meant, when someone uses a term, such as "Chinatown") would probably be useful ... especially if the details are relegated to a section which some [other] readers might want to SKIP, if they are less concerned with knowing the exact "boundaries".
Thanks for listening ... and/or, thanks for your patience (e.g. if some of this has been kinda << "TMI" >>
.) --
Mike Schwartz (
talk)
15:43, 22 March 2020 (UTC)