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The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Moved. Much as it pains me to see us moving to that weird spelling, with the letters the wrong way round, it does seem like consensus is with the ayes here. The weight of sources giving "Center" make it a clear
WP:COMMONNAME, trumping the
WP:RETAIN argument. There's also no firm consensus as to whether
WP:TIES should apply here - the number of English-language Israeli sources would suggest perhaps it should. —
Amakuru (
talk)
10:05, 19 September 2019 (UTC)reply
Centre Party (Israel) →
Center Party (Israel) – The article uses 1 reference and 2 external links (in English), all 3 call the party "Center Party" so per
WP:CRITERIA the name that should be used is exactly that. Additionally, Israel, while not being an English speaking country, does use predominantly American English. So the argument of
MOS:ENGVAR which was used to restore the article to this current incorrect name is incorrect.
Gonnym (
talk) 08:11, 24 August 2019 (UTC) --Relisting.Steel1943 (
talk)
22:10, 11 September 2019 (UTC)reply
Oppose per
WP:RETAIN. The long-standing title seems to be Centre Party. The fact that the three sources that happen to be in the article use the -er spelling is not statistically significant (it would be different if all, or the vast majority, of sources used that spelling, but that seems not to be true). Israel is not an English-speaking country so
WP:TIES has no force. --
Trovatore (
talk)
20:20, 24 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Non-English-speaking countries have no special standing under TIES, so what gets written in English specifically from Israel is not especially relevant. --
Trovatore (
talk)
21:06, 24 August 2019 (UTC)reply
How are numerous sites from the official government not relevant? You do realize that the government deals in international affairs in English right? Which is why we have an official translation in English. Also, are you actually familiar with our title policies? See
WP:TRANSLITERATE and in more detail
WP:ENGLISH. --
Gonnym (
talk)
21:51, 24 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Those sites are irrelevant because Israel is not an English-speaking country. That's basically it. What happens to be written in a non-English-speaking country in English, whether official or not, has no ENGVAR weight whatsoever. --
Trovatore (
talk)
20:43, 25 August 2019 (UTC)reply
I think Israel has enough English language usage to be considered an English-speaking country for the purposes of ENGVAR. See my comment on this below.
Rreagan007 (
talk)
04:31, 26 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Do you now? Just the fact that a lot of people speak English can't be enough, otherwise most of Europe would count as English-speaking. What fraction of the population speaks English at home by preference? --
Trovatore (
talk)
04:48, 26 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Where in
WP:ENGVAR does it say that the percentage of the population that speaks English at home by preference is the criteria that is used to determine which countries count as "English-speaking countries"? And if that is the criteria, then I doubt countries like South Africa and India would qualify as an English-speaking country.
Rreagan007 (
talk)
05:51, 26 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Support – there are no
WP:TIES arguments in this case, and
WP:RETAIN says "...maintain [English variety] in the absence of consensus to the contrary. " Well there's a very good case for a consensus to the contrary here. --
IJBall (
contribs •
talk)
22:43, 24 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment Whatever spelling this party itself used (assuming it ever used the English version of its name) is what we should be using in this article.
Rreagan007 (
talk)
23:02, 24 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Since the official site is down and all we have is the landing page, the closest to the spelling used by the party, is the one published by the Knesset itself. And as I've shown above, it, and all other official government agencies use the same "Center" spelling.
Note that there is nothing in ENGVAR or TITLEVAR that gives any special weight to the English-language government or party websites of a non-English-speaking country. --
Trovatore (
talk)
02:47, 26 August 2019 (UTC)reply
I would say that Israel has enough English language usage to be considered an English-speaking country for our purposes here. According to our Israel article: "English was an official language during the Mandate period; it lost this status after the establishment of Israel, but retains a role comparable to that of an official language, as may be seen in road signs and official documents. Many Israelis communicate reasonably well in English, as many television programs are broadcast in English with subtitles and the language is taught from the early grades in elementary school. In addition, Israeli universities offer courses in the English language on various subjects.".
Rreagan007 (
talk)
04:25, 26 August 2019 (UTC)reply
I don't think that's enough. With the exception of the historical official-language thing (which isn't that important), most of those would apply to most of Continental Europe. I might not particularly mind a one-off exception for Israel. But the idea of granting "English-speaking" status to Sweden or France, or looking on the English-language part of the Die Welt website to decide how to spell things about German topics, that's too much for me. --
Trovatore (
talk)
05:10, 26 August 2019 (UTC)reply
I lived there for four years, and it's not an English-speaking country. An English-speaking country would be one where a significant proportion of people speak English as their main language, or it is widely used as the language in schools or public affairs. This isn't the case in Israel – many people speak English, but not as many as somewhere like the Netherlands or Denmark.
Number5712:31, 26 August 2019 (UTC)reply
I appreciate your anecdotal story of having lived there, but I asked for what criteria we should be using for determining what is and is not an English-speaking country. If a larger percentage of the Israeli population can speak English than say India or South Africa, does that mean that India and South Africa are not English-speaking countries either?
Rreagan007 (
talk)
19:36, 26 August 2019 (UTC)reply
As I suggested, this would be a country "where a significant proportion of people speak English as their main language, or it is widely used as the language in schools or public affairs". And dismissing my experience as an 'anecdotal story' is a pretty poor attitude to take here.
Number5719:54, 26 August 2019 (UTC)reply
It doesn't. English is not spoken at home by much of the population (probably only immigrants from English-speaking countries) and is not used as the medium of education in state schools. Some universities have a small number of courses available in English, but this isn't unusual for European universities. Whenever I interacted with the state (such as at the Ministry of Interior or the Driving Licence Agency), I was not able to do it in English.
Number5711:30, 27 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Oppose I can't understand why the fact that the sources that happened to have been used in the article are justification for a move. If the article had used sources like the
IPU or
Haaretz (an Israeli newspaper) or
Israel at the Polls (a book about the 1999 election with an entire chapter on the party, which is by far the most comprehensive source on the party that I have found in English), then the justification wouldn't exist.
Number5712:15, 25 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Ha, touché. However, the point still stands that reliable and relevant sources use both spellings. Would you have suggested the move if the article had been sourced entirely to the Israel at the Polls book (which looks to be a very good source)?
Number5719:01, 25 August 2019 (UTC)reply
If you are referring to references in this discussion, both Number 57 and I provided some. Are you looking for something specific? --
Gonnym (
talk)
13:19, 25 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Yes, but at least a dozen references have been provided in the discussion above, and at least some of those can be added to the article if this is moved. --
IJBall (
contribs •
talk)
14:32, 26 August 2019 (UTC)reply
That is all very nice, but they are all in "talk," not on the page itself, to back up the spelling of a word. Rather than wasting all this time and research on how to spell center/centre, why don't you guys just fix up the article - whether it is moved or not? Just a few more clicks and voila, a referenced article.--
Geewhiz (
talk)
14:38, 26 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Support per nomination, O.N.R., IJBall, Calidum and Rreagan. Gonnym has provided overwhelmingly convincing evidence that the written form, in English, of the party's name is "Center Party" and not "Centre Party". Taking into account that Israel's extensive English-language media uses "Center", it would be counterintuitive to use the British form "Centre" since the topic of this article is not British. —
Roman Spinner(talk •
contribs)08:41, 15 September 2019 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.