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There is an ortography error in the sentence of the first line below the section Society under the reign of Casimir, he introduced were his attempt to put the overwhelming superiority of the nobility to an end. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Marcosoldfox (
talk •
contribs)
13:43, 20 January 2015 (UTC)reply
isn't that strange that we called such a bastard, erotoman and cruel king the great? :))) I wonder if i shoudl put info about all this, because that would terrible damage his school-picture of all-good king [[
szopen]]
Of course you should. Also about his double bigamy. We should give a full and true view on every topic.
But this doesn't change the fact, that Casimir was indeed the great. It was him, wh brught Poland into power never seen before.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Oppose So far I have seen the user opposes names based on opinion that they were made by "Polish nationalist minority"
[1]. Such rude comments should be outside of wiki and certainly not a basis for changes.--
Molobo19:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Support. While the notion of a "Polish cabal" and the accusations of "Polish nationalism" are less than good faith, I would say, it is not a good reason for voting against a proposal that the proponent has expressed such views. Secondly, this is a prime example of a figure which, as far as I know, is indisputable better known by his English name (
Casimir III of Poland or
Casimir III the Great) than the current name.
Srnec20:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Conditionally Support. Srnec's reasoning is sound, but it makes sense only if all 4 Kazimierzs are changed, along with the related disambig pages.
Dpv20:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)reply
I support the harmonization to name monarchs by the anglicized form of their given names when appropriate or reasonable.
Charles22:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Because I always supported the descriptive and easy to use XXX of YYY style. As to the first name - I prefer not to latinize Slavic names at all cost. Casimir seems fine, but then consistency leaves us also with Vladislaus (or Wladislas, Ladislas, and so on), Stanislaus (or Stanislaw, Stanislas) and so on. //Halibutt
I also prefer not to Latinize Slavic names at all cost. The Polish "Wladyslaw," for instance, has seen so many different Latinized/Anglicized forms that it's almost impossible to figure out what the "right" latinization is. In such cases, we should stick with the Polish. But this isn't true for Casimir/Kazimierz, which is pretty universal.
john k10:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Note that the user Orionus has appeared only to when the votes on monarchs started and hasn't contributed much beyond them. --
Molobo13:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Yes, you are right. I am an expert in astronomy(
[2] and some links in our national wiki). But every man can have his opinion on historical questions. Am I rigth?
Orionus13:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Votes made by users that appeared during the vote and have dedicated themselfs solely to voting are usually discarded. --
Molobo13:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)reply
"usually discarded" since when? Requested moves are publicized just because everyone can give his opinion on the matter.--
Panairjdde14:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)reply
To clarify (please keep in mind that English is not Molobo's first language): All Wikipedia editors are welcome to participate in these polls, and outside comment is both appreciated and encouraged. In some cases though, unscrupulous users have been known to create throwaway accounts (these are called sockpuppets, see
WP:SOCK) in order to try and pad a vote. So, it is routine for a reviewing admin to check that all users involved in a vote, have a history of edits somewhere on Wikipedia, over a period of more than just the last few days, to prove that they're a real account, and not a sockpuppet. There is disagreement as to how many edits a particular user needs to have in order to be considered "real". In some cases, 50 might be enough, though some other editors like to see a few hundred, and a few hardcore users don't trust anybody with fewer than a thousand. ;) But to repeat: it is not necessary to actually have edits on the article that is being discussed, in order to be able to weigh in with a poll. And even the new users are welcome to participate and comment, even if their votes might not be given as much weight. In Orionus' case in particular, I believe that what Molobo is referring to is the fact Orionis' first ever post was on June 11, and that he has fewer than 50 edits on the account, most of which are votes on Polish monarchs
[3], which does seem a bit unusual for a new user to immediately jump into so many polls like that. So I recommend Orionis spend time editing other articles around Wikipedia to build up his edit count, and until he's got a few more articles under his belt, don't be surprised if there's a raised eyebrow here and there. --
Elonka22:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Thank you, Elonka. Really I am new in wikipedia community. And I am slightly upset with the above reaction to my votes. Originally I voted only for Jogaila (or at least Jagiello) instead of present name
Władysław II Jagiełło. Next day I found an invitation to vote on Polish medieval monarchs naming. And I also expressed my opinion...
Orionus07:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong support. Every single encyclopedia I checked, lists this guy's name as Casimir, with only minor variations after that. Sokol's Polish Biographical Dictionary: Casimir III (The Great). 1979 Encyclopedia Britannica: Casimir III the Great, of Poland, Online Britannica: Casimir III[4], Webster's Desk Encyclopedia: Casimir III aka Casimir the Great. Columbia Online: Casimir III[5]. This article should never have been moved to a Polish spelling.
[6] --
Elonka19:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)reply
One poll at a time. :) For now, I strongly support getting this article off of the "Kazimierz" name, as soon as possible. Any user who sees the article title of "Kazimierz" and tries to use it to find an article on him in their own local encyclopedia, is going to have a hard time since none of the major reference works refer to him by that name. We can debate the "of Poland" and "the Great" decision later. In fact, I would see it as a sign of good faith if you would please change your vote in the above poll to help speed the process. --
Elonka05:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)reply
The use of of Poland has always been an exception to the "most common English usage" rule; we have just made that explicit. A separate poll on the Great vs. of Poland would be sensible; I'm not setting it up because I'm not sure how I would vote.
Septentrionalis17:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)reply
The usage "Casimir III of Poland" is not his "name". Casimir is his name, "the Great" his epithet, and III his ordinal. "Of Poland" is a descriptor we use on Wikipedia to prevent ambiguity and to inform. Casimir III tells the ignorant nothing, Casimir the Great something more, but Casimir III of Poland tells us that he was a ruler of Poland, which is tells us more about him than anything else. The statement above, "...certainly 'the Great' for this truly extraordinary ruler is more fitting then the much less informative 'of Poland'," is not really true. It doesn't matter whether an author never has reason to use the full phrase "Casimir III of Poland," he is writing in context, but the title of an encyclopedia article has no context.
Srnec01:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)reply
No, Lawrence of Arabia would be his name (Lawrence) plus his byname/epithet ("of Arabia"). Lawrence of Arabia is not his name, only part of it is part of his full name. If it were Lawrence III of Arabia, it would be proper to assume that he was the third Lawrence to rule Arabia.
Srnec15:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Poll results
Okay, wow, this is tough. I'll start with
User:Dpv. His vote is conditional on certain other pages being moved and since I haven't even looked at those polls yet I think the only thing I can do is set it aside for a while. Other users cast an unambiguous vote for or against the proposed move.
User:Halibutt was the only one to qualify his vote was "weak".
When judging the result of a poll like this there are several things to pay attention to. One is the experience of editors involved. In my opinion it takes a while to become sufficiently familiar with the way things are done on Wikipedia to give an educated view on something as arcane as the naming conventions of European royalty. To set an arbitrary minimum I'd say a month and 100 edits and I think that's still being generous. Only a couple of editors,
User:167.7.39.139 and
User:Orionus fall below this minimum. Newbies are, of course, welcome to participate in polls and if they offer good arguments they may sway experienced editors, but I think we have to set a minimum somewhere - that also discourages the creation of votestacking sockpuppets.
When it comes to puppets it looks to me like
User:Logologist,
User:Anatopism and
User:Mattergy are probably all operated by the same person (look at their edit histories). People are welcome to edit using multiple accounts but when it comes to votes it's enough to express one's opinion through one of them. If
User:Logologist tells me I'm mistaken we can ask for a 'checkuser' to confirm or deny the association.
When it comes to votes on individual articles I'm inclined to give more weight to the opinion of users who have edited the article in the past, in this case
User:Piotrus,
User:Appleseed,
User:Logologist and
User:Halibutt.
User:Marrtel posted notices on the talk pages of many users, soliciting their views on this poll. It seems to me that he may only have contacted people he thought likely to agree with him on the issue. This taints the poll somewhat and may mean it is not representative of the opinions of Wikipedians as a whole. I'm sure that everyone who voted did so in good faith and gave their honest opinion but the participants in the poll may not be a fair sample of those who care about the issue.
All these factors are noted in the tally below.
Oppose
Piotrus - experienced editor, has edited the article
Appleseed - experienced editor, has edited the article
Logologist - experienced editor, has edited the article <--Now revealed to be using sockpuppets, as established by CheckUser.see User:Mackensen on WP:ANI
Anatopism - experienced editor (looks like a puppet of Logologist) <--Sockpuppet No.1.
Mattergy - experienced editor (looks like a puppet of Logologist) <--Sockpuppet No.2.
Angusmclellan - experienced editor, solicited by Martell
Support
Marrtel - experienced editor
Cfvh - experienced editor
AjaxSmack - experienced editor
Ghirlandajo - experienced editor
Panairjdde - experienced editor
Elonka - experienced editor
Olessi - experienced editor
Jay32183 - experienced editor
John_Kenney - experienced editor, solicited by Marrtel
Srnec - experienced editor, solicited by Marrtel
Jtdirl - experienced editor, solicited by Marrtel
Irpen - experienced editor, solicited by Marrtel
Juraune - experienced editor, solicited by Marrtel
Gryffindor - experienced editor, solicited by Marrtel
Calgacus - experienced editor, solicited by Marrtel
Pmanderson - experienced editor, solicited by Marrtel
Matthead - experienced editor, solicited by Martel
Aldux - experienced editor, solicited by Martel
Jonathunder - experienced editor, solicited by Martel
Halibutt - experienced editor, solicited by Martell, weak support, has edited the article
Orionus - < 100 edits, first edit 11 June, solicited by Marrtel
167.7.39.139 - 15 edits
Complex
Dpv - experienced editor, vote can not be processed at this time
It would be tempting to say simply that the poll is tainted and a new one should be started but I don't think that would necessarily be the best option. Holding endless polls on the names of Polish monarchs may not be the best use of our time and a new poll (perhaps an approval vote with multiple options) can just as well be held after the page is moved.
So, in order to weigh all the factors above into a decision for or against a move I've come up with an arbitrary system of multiplication modifiers.
Vote is marked as "weak": x 0.5
User seems to be a puppet: x 0.0
User has less than 100 edits: x 0.0
User was solicited to come to the poll: x 0.5
User has edited the article: x 2.0
If the weighted tally comes out as >60% in favor of a move I'll move the page. I have no
idea if it will, I'll start counting now.
Haukur19:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Ouch. That was much closer than I would have liked but I'd best stick with what I said and not move the page. Obviously this all depends on completely arbitrary factors and if I had set any one of them differently in a direction more favorable to pro-movers the result would have gone their way. :| I hope no-one gets mad at me. I was trying to be as fair as I could and take everything into account. I personally have no opinion on the best location for this article but I believe
Process is Important and we should be diligent in interpreting polls. If you want a second opinion I suggest contacting
User:Nightstallion who has a lot of experience with move-requests or you can post a notice on
WP:AN/
WP:ANI.
Haukur20:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)reply
That is outrageous. An overwhelming majority voted to move the page. Instead we have this cock-and-bull nonsense about weighed votes being used to overturn a clear decision. The outcome could hardly be clearer. 9 opposed. 22 Support. That is just over 29% opposed, and just under 71% supporting. That is a clear majority of a move. If one accepts the claim that two of the votes in the opposed camp were sockpuppets, as suggested, that reduces the opposed camp to 24%. How it can possibly be suggested that a situation where at most less than one in three of people voting, possibly as little as less than one in four, can oppose something and still "win" the outcome by blocking the vote, is mindboggling. In accordance with the clear vote, and the fact that the weighed majority surpassed the 60% threshhold by at least 10%, I'm moving the page in accordance with the decision of those who voted.
FearÉIREANN\(caint)20:58, 22 June 2006 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure I agree with the chosen multipliers, but thanks for what appears to be a good faith effort to be fair, Haukurth. I can appreciate how much bookkeeping was involved in tallying that, not to mention doing the sockpuppet checks. In terms of the x2 multiplier for those who have edited the article though, I think that that's a bit much, especially because it's not something that the voters were aware of. Speaking for myself, I definitely have edited articles on European/Polish royalty, and have even created them (see
August Czartoryski and
Maria Amparo), and I very easily could have participated in the editing of this article, so I'm not sure it's entirely fair to give such a large discount to my vote simply because I haven't gotten around to editing this particular one yet. But I do understand what you were trying to go for, even if I disagree with your final tally. --
Elonka21:14, 22 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Yes, maybe multiplying by two is too much. Since two users have taken issue with that already I probably won't do it again in the future. Thanks for the input!
Haukur21:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC)reply
I do approve of your will to go deep into this discussion and analyze it in much detail. Don't let yourself be discourgaged from such approach - in the group that 'loses the vote' will always be people who will try to 'kill the proverbial messanger'. You are doing good job!--
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul PiotrusTalk08:46, 23 June 2006 (UTC)reply
I wasn't sure if the fourth vote you were talking about was Logologist's (i.e. if a sockmaster is allowed to keep his single vote), but it appears that I'm the one accused of being the fourth sock. How disheartening.
Appleseed (
Talk)
19:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Only sockpuppets should be discounted, Logologists vote should stay, IP shouldn't as well as those people with few edits.
--
Molobo19:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)reply
The English form still is favoured by the majority of voters, whether eligible by your standards or any others presented.
Charles19:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)reply
The English form
Please provide evidence that this is an English form and not an imaginary creation. Please remember that Wiki isn't a democracy and voting is just a guideline. If users from country the article relates to have grounds to object the change, then it is signal that something is wrong with that the proposal, not with people from that country.
--
Molobo 20:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Care to present evidence that this is an established English form rather then imaginary creation ?
Also please present counting as to the vote that overall voting achieves concensus. Also remember that Wiki isn't democracy, vote is just a guideline.
--
Molobo19:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)reply
What's the position of official Polish historiography abuot the Niemirza (sp?) and second Kazimierz illegitimate son? I guess we should some info about this to article too?
Szopen08:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)reply
Since Kazimierz the Great "left a country doubled in size," it might be interesting to see a map or maps illustrating his gains (and also, apparently, the loss of Silesia).
Sca17:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)reply
It's late and so maybe I'm just tired. Why is the one section near the end given the title "tittle-tattles?" It's been that way for like a year so I'm guessing there's a reason, but I'm blanking on what reason. Can someone explain?--
T. Anthony (
talk)
09:47, 27 August 2009 (UTC)reply
"His three daughters by his fourth wife were very young and regarded as of dubious legitimacy because of their father's bigamy. Because all of the five children he fathered with his first and fourth wife were daughters, he would have no lawful male heir to his throne."
Well, everyone is young when they're born, surely this needs to be put in context. I'm assuming it's referring to when Casimir died, but the paragraph about his death comes after this one. So why was them being young relevant and when?
84.114.214.144 (
talk)
22:38, 29 March 2012 (UTC)reply
I
removed an anti-Semitic legend that was being presented as factual. There may be merit to presenting the anti-Semitic legend of blaming Esterka for Casimir's relative tolerance of Jews, however such a presentation should make clear that this is a legend (begun some 100 years after events) with no historical basis (beyond Casimir's relative tolerance to Jews and the Church's disdain of this - the figure and progeny are legends, not factual).
Icewhiz (
talk)
10:01, 25 December 2018 (UTC)reply
It was a legend, but calling it "an anti-Semitic legend" is sort of dumb, since, per your own source, the legend was prominent in Yiddish (Jewish) literature. Next time, instead of searching for key words which reflect your POV (in this case "Esterka antisemitic"), how about you actually bother reading YOUR OWN source? Will save trouble later on.
Volunteer Marek (
talk)
13:30, 29 December 2018 (UTC)reply
What a coincidence seeing you here. If mentioned, the antisemitic context of its invention by a Catholic priest and subsequent used in antisemitic Polish literature should be clearly stated.[1][2][3] That there are uses that are not antisemitic in Jewish literature (which differ on many details), does not change the context of its invention and use in antisemitic tracts.
Icewhiz (
talk)
15:12, 29 December 2018 (UTC)reply
There is no "antisemitic context of its invention". You made that up. Nobody disputes that it's a legend, first related by Dlugosz. That's all the first source you provide says. Your second source is that photographer, Janicka, again, that you drag out, every time you want to accuse Poles of being antisemitic about, well, everything. You really need to find a new hobby. It's really the tediousness and dull-mindedness of your bigotry that is tiring, not the continued indulgence of your prejudices on Wikipedia (which is par for the course around here). Your third source just says that the legend has been used in anti-semitic ways, by, well, anti-semites. That same source then goes on at length to enumerate all the NON-anti-semitic ways in which the legend has been used in both Polish and Yiddish language literature, as well as in art. That source does not actually name any "antisemitic tracts", which again, is something you made up. In case you really are having difficulty understanding what Sicher is saying, and are not just pretending to do so, so that you can excuse your - once again - blatant misrepresentation of a source: he is NOT saying the legend is anti-semitic. He is saying that USING the legend to complain about the privileged position of the Jews in the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth is anti-semitic. Why are you allowed to edit this topic area again? After all the falsifications and misrepresentations and the very blatant and obvious
WP:AGENDA your edits evidence?
Volunteer Marek (
talk)
07:00, 30 December 2018 (UTC)reply
While Janicka is an excellent source - I am not citing her. The first source quite obviously expands on Długosz hate - if you continue on reading it. The second source (by Konrad Matyjaszek, not Janicka) says "permanent feature of Polish antisemitic literature". The third - "...Jan Długosz a hundred years later who begins a long anti-Semitic tradition of blaming Esterka for Casimir's extension of privileges to the Jews...". Additional sources on the antisemitic use of this in Polish literature are quite easy to find.
Icewhiz (
talk)
07:20, 30 December 2018 (UTC)reply
Nah, she's not. And yes you are citing her - as a tertiary source. It's her in your second source, in a footnote. And you're obviously trying to be provocative about this "Dlugosz hate", which is also par for the course for you. What does the source actually say? Well, in the portion that's visible, it just says that 1) we don't know what Dlugosz's motivation was, 2) that Dlugosz attributed Casimir's favorable policy towards Jews to Esterka and 3) that Casimir did indeed have such a policy. So... you're making stuff up again? And your third source? You just quoted that cherry picked fragment once again, in an utterly dishonest misrepresentation of the source, which then goes on for two pages about all the non-anti-semitic uses of the legend. And which does not say the legend is anti-semitic, contrary to your false assertion.
I mean, it's pretty obvious from the way you entered the sources that you've already done all kinds of searches for, quote, "Esterka antisemitic", to pedantly cherry pick stuff in accordance with your POV, and apparently this is the best you could come up with. Here, why not try this for a change: first read the sources, THEN form an opinion, not vice versa.
Volunteer Marek (
talk)
07:35, 30 December 2018 (UTC)reply
References
^A Psychoanalytic History of the Jews, Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, Avner Falk, page 548, quote: The fifteenth-century Polish historian Jan Dlugosz (Johannes Longinus, 1415-180), author of the monumental, patriotic, and tendentious twelve-book Historiae Polonicae, attributed Kazimierz Wielki's pro-Jewish stance to a Jewish mistress named Esterka (Little Esther), who bore him four illegitimate children and lived in a royal palace near Krakow. Most modern Polish and Jewish historians dismiss this account as myth. It bears a striking resemblance to the biblical story of Queen Esther and King Ahasuerus of Persia. But myths have a psychological meaning. Did Dlugosz hate the Jews? .....
^The Jew's Daughter: A Cultural History of a Conversion Narrative, Lexington Books, Efraim Sicher, page 58, quote: The first mention is by Jan Długosz a hundred years later who begins a long anti-Semitic tradition of blaming Esterka for Casimir's extension of privileges to the Jews and promulgation of regulations that threatened vested interests.
A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Why does the article say he was "facetiously called the Peasant's King"? The examples cited seem to indicate this title was given unironically, and with full respect. 14:27, 8 August 2021 (UTC)