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There is a lot of unsourced editorializing showing up in this article. Baseball Bugs 11:57, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Now my good Baseball, I was quite happy with your initial corrections (the ones with the bullets), but now you turned it into a poor text commentary and it gained tremendously in messiness and lost in clarity. You know baseball but what do you know about poetry and narratology? You do whatever you want, I do not care that much, but maybe you should consider going back to your initial formulation, the one without all these quotes. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
76.64.0.225 (
talk •
contribs) 19:52, June 19, 2007
Very good. I am your most captive fan. I was a little surprised that you censored the developpment about "Fraud!". Casey's reaction to that second accusation of the crowd is ambivalent. He feels accused and becomes suddenly hateful and violent. Did you remove it because the dark side of your favorite sport manifests itself in that double entendre? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.0.225 ( talk • contribs) 20:41, June 19, 2007
From the text, Baseball, from the text itself and nothing else. After that shout of the crowd, Casey looses completely his nonchalance. The texts speaks suddenly of violence, of hate. I even believe that that accusation is what finally made him strike out... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.0.225 ( talk • contribs) 20:50, June 19, 2007
So you will discard a valid argument on scholastic grounds, and give me the quote your master line? Come on, Baseball, you can do better than that. The writer you quote is just another "original researcher" who was printed on paper, what does that mean fundamentally? Can you find a citation - and more importantly: an argument - that invalidates that interpretation? If that citation comes from your own free-thinking head, it even interests me more. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
76.64.0.225 (
talk •
contribs) 21:09, June 19, 2007
Your rules, my dear Baseball, are self-proclaimed and self transgressed. I doubt that you can provide quotes to ground the bundle of mish-mashed comments yout turned your own work into. The connections you build with The Natural and with these other baseball figures you mention are also the result of your own improvisation. The final result is more "know-it-all" than descriptive. The fact that Casey wears a hat and not a cap is in the text. It is factual then to mention it. It is not an act of imagination and is in full conformity with the adequate understanding of the wiki rules. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
76.64.0.225 (
talk •
contribs) 21:26, June 19, 2007
Well I can find you a flow of citations proving that the rhyme does not allow to distort the semantic endlessly. If that hat would have actually been a cap, the author would have organized the movement and the rythm differently and rhymes constraints would not have alterated his content. The fundamental, Baseball, is this: as a typical wikiman you behave as if you own that article. Your improvisations are legitimate and the interventions of others are subordinated to your own subjective choices. Be informed that I will not edit a single line in that article anymore. You can screw it up as deeply as you wish and wrap yourself in the wiki-rules to legitimate yourself. It will be just one more tiny episod of the endlessly growing wiki-biais. Let me exemplify the distortions you introduce. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
76.64.0.225 (
talk •
contribs) 21:48, June 19, 2007
You write:
Casey adopts a surprisingly modern attitude when he neglects to swing at the first two pitches. Many years later, Rogers Hornsby advised Ted Williams that the secret to hitting was to "wait for a good pitch to hit". As Carlos Beltran knows, sometimes that good pitch never comes.
This "know-it-all" set of correlations with the history of baseball would have a certain anecdotal interest if they would not introduce a mere falsity. It gives wrongly the impression that Casey is patiently waiting for the good pitch... All the "quotes" you can find about the main thematic of that text (including from your own text: Casey, Mudville's star player, is beloved by the fans and so confident in his abilities that he doesn't swing at the first two pitches) will tell you that what he actually does is to nonchalantly neglect the two first pitches out of a self-indulging lack of modesty. There is nothing specificly modern about that and all that segment of your development about "waiting for a good pitch" is "imaginative", unsubstantiated and, most of the most: wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.54.22.108 ( talk • contribs) 05:19, June 20, 2007
Baseball Bugs, why is it that you do not want any mention of the fact that many people have construed (either because they are overly optimistic or because they wanted to write/dramatize etc. a comic retelling of the poem) the line "The score stood four to two with but one inning more to play" to mean that the game is in the bottom of the ninth? I would be in full agreement with your edits if you were changing a comment that claimed this, but what you have edited out are mentions of it that immediately discredit the claim and state that the game is in fact in the bottom of the ninth. I'm not accepting your 'nobody thinks that' explanation because anyone with a precursory understanding of baseball who is not familiar with the poem could easily think that. I don't know about you, but at the bottom of the ninth with two outs and two poor hitters coming up to bat not many people would say there's another inning left. Of course the situation would not be nearly as desperate if there were another inning, and so it is ridiculous to think that it is the last of the eighth, but it is an easy misunderstanding or a clever conceit to use, and so I think it bears mentioning here. Christopher Bing felt the need to mention that theory in the back matter of his amazingly well researched (and Caldecott nominated) version of the poem (which you would probably highly enjoy, look it up on amazon). I do not at all agree with the patronizing tone that the other, anonymous user has been using with you, but his early criticism that your edits of this page seem much more geared to people who like baseball than to people who are interested in poetry or this poem is quite true. An editor of this page must consider that there are more issues involved than just creating a highly baseball-fan oriented explanation of the poem. B.T.Carolus 09:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Baseball Bugs, I don't think you get the point of this article. It is nice that you have an incredibly in depth understanding of baseball and all of its little intricacies. For the 99% of the English-speaking people on this planet who come to this page looking for information on a poem, or to provide information on that poem, no one cares about split hairs about half innings. Guess what, two half innings, added together, make a whole inning. That is how every average joe -- reading this poem because they remember it fondly from elementary school or wanted to figure out where that last stanza came from -- understands baseball. The point of this page is to make non-avid baseball fans able to understand a poem. Not to split hairs about this stuff. Which is why I and several other people have included the reference about the eighth inning. It is not to make you mad, or spark paragraphs of possible explanations of what inning it actually is, it is to give (for example) an eighth grader doing a project for his literature course a clear understanding of the poem. To keep said eighth grader, or another like him, from going down a rabbit hole about something that can't happen. That is why we have a reference about it. Not because it is impossible, but because it seems like it could be and therefore could be confusing to someone. That is, in fact, why we have put in many of the things we have put in. It's also why you can't necessarily delete them just because of your particular brand of knowledge. Your expert knowledge of the subject of baseball can be a valuable asset to the quest of making this poem -- about baseball -- more accessible. It can also be a detriment if you lose sight of the fact that this is an article about a poem, not an explanation of a historical epoch of your favorite sport. B.T.Carolus 10:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Aside from the fact that two or three people have independently put that in (I didn't realize that you'd deleted it multiple times until after I started looking through the article's history), you can find the claim that various people have thought that it took place at the end of the eighth in the backmatter of Christopher Bing's 2000 edition of the poem. Although not technically a scholarly work, Bing is one of the leading children's book illustrators of our day and he got that way because he literally spends years doing pre-research on his subjects (which are all re-illustrations of old masterpieces). His "Casey at the Bat" is no excpetion. In addition to amazing 'woodcut' illustrations in the style of a period newspaper, he wrote a half-dozen 'newspaper articles' that recount the issues baseball faced in the late 1800s including the adoption of gloves, new pitching rules, arguments over outfield fences, etc. He found period baseball memorabilia and, using cutting edge digital techniques, created 'Mudville' baseball cards, pins, and medals which are digitally overlaid onto the pages. He also wrote an explanation of the style of artwork he used, an acknowledgements section that describes some of the places he did research at (like the baseball hall of fame), and (in the backmatter) a short 'obit' of Thayer and a detailed explanation of the context of the poem, including mentioning that optimists sometimes use an alternate explanation of which inning everything happens in. Obviously that is not a perfect academic citation (although it's a lot better than some on Wikipedia...) but I'd imagine that if anything else Bing would be able to point to the research that led him to say it. I cannot look at the book and see if there is anything more about that particular issue because it is (alas) at the public library right now. I do not know where the other people who wrote that in got their information from. B.T.Carolus 11:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Baseball Bugs quotes wiki-regulations and obligations that apply to everyone but himself. But Bugs breaks the supreme rule of Wikipedia. He denies the cooperative wiki-authorship and behaves as if this article is his own. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
76.64.1.166 (
talk •
contribs) 09:55, June 25, 2007
"The last line above reflects the casual attitude towards betting and baseball that existed at the time." At the time? as opposed to today? I'm no historian but I'd bet you the casual casual attitude between baseball and betting at the time is exactly the same as it is now, at least among people who don't write wikipedia articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.166.111.168 ( talk • contribs) 03:23, July 23, 2007
Maybe this is covering old ground. A spot check of prior versions didn't show indenting of the commentary. Having the text closer to the left margin and indenting the commentary reads easier for me. But that's me.
A spot check of prior versions did show italicizing of the text. That makes some sense to me, but I find italicized text harder to read. That is covering old ground. For whatever reason, the text isn't italicized today.
Perhaps indenting the commentary suffices in giving prominence to the text. - Ac44ck ( talk) 18:49, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I find the commentary inserted into the text of the poem peurile and insufferably pompous. I'm for deleting it completely and letting people just enjoy the poem without the snarky comments. 72.80.10.12 ( talk) 22:48, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
I think you went overboard in removing historical and baseball-rich explanation, so I've returned them; and then I cut a couple that I think you are correct, they fall into literary essay area. - DavidWBrooks ( talk) 13:04, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
It seems surprising that no one has mentioned the stylistic resemblance between a certain "Lay Made About the Year Of The City CCCLX" and this "A Ballad of the Republic Sung in the Year 1888". Casey at the Bat is pretty obviously a comic pastiche in the style of Macaulay's Lays of Ancient Rome. The Lays were very well known during the late nineteenth century and would have been familiar to most of the San Francisco Examiner's readers. Take a look at them if you doubt the resemblance. -- Derek Ross | Talk 07:21, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Mice At Bat. Or should this book just go in its own article? In-Correct ( talk) 22:20, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
The best parody is "Today's Casey Finds No Joy in Mudville" by Mitch Albom [text omitted] 70.116.84.194 ( talk) 16:31, 8 May 2010 (UTC)Dave Howard
"*The song "No Joy In Pudville" by Steroid Maximus is a reference to this poem." has just been added to the "Music" subsection. Is this song a parody? an homage? If so, that should be noted and this text either moved to the appropriate section (or double-listed). Calling it a "reference" to the poem in question seems insufficient (and inappropriate). Artaxerxes ( talk) 16:02, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
This section of the article seems pretty muddled, and to contain some stuff that doesn't belong in this article at all:
I would fix this myself if I had any sources, or knowledge of baseball. Could someone oblige? Chuntuk ( talk) 09:23, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Allegedly Leonard Koppett, a well-known sportswriter, wrote an article in 1979 Sporting News alleging that Thayer wrote 18 extra lines saying that Casey deliberately struck out to help a bettor - which would radically change the meaning of the one of the most famous poems in American history. I can find nobody else anywhere who cites this astonishing fact - User:User:BeveragenBall apparently has seen a physical copy of the paper - which makes me nervous. I find it impossible to believe that if there was good evidence about these extra lines, they wouldn't be cited in some of the academic discussion about the poem.
Am I missing something? can anybody else help? - DavidWBrooks ( talk) 11:12, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
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