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I think it would be best to have the article's name be the grape's proper name Carmenère with the "English" spelling being the redirect, not the otherway around as it is currently.
Agne02:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Oh, no: it looks like the spelling is actually Carménère[1]. But many websites have Carmenère or spell it with no accents at all. I suppose we should go with the absolutely most correct spelling. Which?
Badagnani04:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)reply
Dear Badagnani: Carmenère is fine. At least, that's the name that all Chilean winemakers producing the wine print on their labels, as if by common agreement. I can supply you with plenty of (scanned) bottle labels, if you like. Just write to aka_ef@yahoo.com | Regards,
AVM22:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)reply
I have changed all of the article's Carmenère to Carménère. 2 reasons - both Spanish and French wikipedias have their title in with the Carménère heading. Since the grape and the grapes name comes from France, it should be Carménère. The biggest producer of Carménère is Chile and Spanish wiki's heading is Carménère. Further, I checked the wineries that produce it in Chile and they have written Carménère. Although some do only use Carmenère and CARMENERE (capitalized and adding no accents), the correct spelling is Carménère. Therefore the article title should be changed and there should be a redirect from Carmenere and Carmenère to Carménère. --
Charleenmerced Talk04:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmercedreply
I suggest an editor takes charge over the spelling - I don't want to get involved in changing the spelling myself when it has been discussed before and has been stable for 6 years. But all the evidence suggests to me that this article has it wrong. As it is a French grape, INAO is probably the most authoritative source, and it uses "carmenère". I cannot work out how to link to it, but INAO specifies for red Bordeaux: "Les vins rouges et rosés sont issus exclusivement des cépages suivants : cabernet-sauvignon N, cabernet franc N, merlot N, cot N (ou malbec), carmenère N, petit verdot N." Also, numerous authoritative sources consistently use the "carmenère" spelling: Jancis Robinson, Hugh Johnson, Tom Stevenson, the established wine merchant Berry Brothers and Rudd, Chilean wine labels. The only mention of "carménère" that I would describe as authoritative is in the Carmenère article in "Wine Grapes" by Jancis Robinson, Julia Harding and José Vouillamoz, where "carménère" is listed as a synonym, along with many other synonyms. I would suggest that the many references to "carménère" in magazine and newspaper articles you can find on the web are largely due to the spelling used in this article.
Made some changes to the order of the pictures and added one that compares both Merlot and Carmenere. I still think the Merlot one should stay since it gives the reader an idea of how a real merlot grape looks v. Carmenere grape. Also, it shoes the leaves, which are a bit different. It is still nice to compare both side by side. Finally, as to The Casillero del Diablo wine label picture, I put it with the wine producers. I am hoping to get, in the future, samples of some or most of the wine producers and make a scrolling image gallery. ANother user has volunteered to do this.
Charleenmerced Talk06:12, 27 February 2007 (UTC)Charleenmercedreply
I love the side by side illustration but it looks like the image has been tagged for speedy deletion because of the the license tag. I'm curious if there are any GNU or Public Domain version out there, like in the old French ampelography text that have lapse copy right. I'll do some digging.
AgneCheese/
Wine08:19, 27 February 2007 (UTC)reply
Cool! I really didn't want to lose that. It is such a neat illustration. I think the absence of a free version coupled with the owner's permission should qualify for Fair Use. However, I would definitely keep an eye on it. I've had picture "mysteriously" disappear on me due to licensing issues before.
AgneCheese/
Wine19:13, 27 February 2007 (UTC)reply
Now the only picture that I think we really need is one of the wine in the glass so that the reader can get an idea of the color of the wine. Where would be a good place to put such a picture?
AgneCheese/
Wine19:13, 27 February 2007 (UTC)reply
I've replaced your label pic with one which includes a glass - except it's such a dark wine, it's almost impossible to see the colour! I do have a method of photographing wines for colour which I didn't have time for on this occasion, but maybe I can find another bottle... or maybe two... --
mikaul12:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)reply
Wine color, no matter what grape variety, is so variable (affected by geographic origin, vintage weather, phenolic ripeness, production treatment, bottle age and condition, etc. and even the color temperature of the illumination used in the original photo) as to be impossible to photograph wine to demonstrate color that is primarily attributable to grape variety in any specifically meaningful way. All such images are massive generalities at best and mostly misleading in general. These particular images [File:Chilean_Carmenere.jpg|left|thumb|A Carmenere from the
Cachapoal Valley of
Chile.], etc. favor the producers (as free advertising for the brands), rather than enlightening the reader. I strongly advocate that these not be replaced.
Son of RML (
talk)
17:18, 23 March 2018 (UTC)reply
I am sooooo done. Honestly, there is nothing else to add. Maybe a few (very few) things here and there, but nothing major. I think this article is pretty much done!!!! Can someone please check the Characteristics section to see whether it is ok? It may be a little off on the POV. --
Charleenmerced Talk04:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmercedreply
GA ??
First congratulations on producing what is turning out to be a very nice article.
I do, however, have a couple of comments:
I think the GA submission is premature. One of the requirements is stability, and there's no way the article can pass that criterion. There are new things being added faster than I can keep up. There's a whole page of changes just today.
Regarding the long list of wineries that produce Carmenère. While it may be a fine piece of research, I think it detracts from the structure and flow of the article, making it cumbersome, and I wonder if it should even be there.
Steve, I agree in part. Regarding the constant adding of info - all my fault, I just found all this info that I had to add and I also restructured the page a bit. Regarding the wineries - well, the thing is that when I started I didn't know there were sooo many considering that Carmenere was thought to be extinct. I think some wineries should be there cuz some are the major producers of the grape (e.g. Casillero del Diablo). So, I guess I'll take votes. Remove or keep the wineries? I will def take out whether it is reserve or estate or etc. As a side note, I think these are pretty much all the wineries that produce Carmenere, a pretty exhaustive list, save 4-5 I may have missed.
Charleenmerced Talk00:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmercedreply
As a past GA reviewer, there is no need for stability concerns. Charleen's changes have been adding some interesting tidbits and stylistic tweaking. The stability concern in
WP:WIAGA is primarily aimed at drastic changes, with substantial deletion of materials and edit warring. Further improvements and tweaks (especially during a GA review) are actually expected and even encouraged. More importantly, these are organic improvements and there is no present edit warring. Now in regards to the winery list, I am not a fan of them mostly for the reasons I espouse in
WP:WINEGUIDE. I think at their core, a list of winery is inherently POV due to the fact that no matter how exhaustive you try to be, there will some wineries included and some not-which can be seen as endorsements or rejection of these Wineries by the article. If the winery has done something particularly notable and unique (like the first to do this or the largest to do) then that would merit inclusion. Any type of general listing should be avoided.
AgneCheese/
Wine05:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)reply
ok, list removed. Final copyedit needed. I would do it but I have read this thing so much that I just can't do it anymore nor would I be as efficient. I tink some tweaking may be needed in the opening paragraph (very little) jsut to make it flow better. The characs also need revising and re-discovering the grape. --
Charleenmerced Talk06:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmercedreply
I tried really hard to get the 'flow' going again and it was stalling, basically (I think) because of the Chilean section. I realise this is more than a tweak but I've removed the section dedicated to Chile and merged that info into the relevant parts and it seems (to me) to read much better, without diminishing the influence of the Chilean growers. There are a few extra phrases here and there but otherwise the content is much the same as before. --
mikaul17:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)reply
GA Passed
This article has passed the GA noms. The following are bot-generated suggestions for improvement.
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic
javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
The lead of this article may be too long, or may contain too many paragraphs. Please follow guidelines at
WP:LEAD; be aware that the lead should adequately summarize the article.[?]
Watch for
redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's
redundancy exercises.)
While additive terms like “also”, “in addition”, “additionally”, “moreover”, and “furthermore” may sometimes be useful, overusing them when they aren't necessary can instead detract from the brilliancy of the article. This article has 9 additive terms, a bit too much.
Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
Citation (6) needs repairing and retitling: the correct link is
http://www.winepros.org/wine101/grape_profiles/carmenere.htm (the current link brings up an Error 404 page. Also, as owner-creator of the site, I would prefer the title be "Professional Friends of Wine / Carmenet" rather than "winepros.org" since there is some history of confusion with the Australian commercial site "winepros.COM". Thank you.
Jim LaMar 19:01, 5 May 2007
Reference [5] simply cites the Spanish version of the same article (Wikipedia en Español: Carménère). The Spanish version of the article makes no citations at all.
A citation may not even be necessary just to say that the wine is medium bodied.
Actually, the article provides the adequate language: "One of the six noble grapes of Bordeaux, this bold, often finicky grape was thought lost after phylloxera, a devastating louse, ravaged French vineyards in the 1800s." --
Charleenmerced Talk22:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)reply
Thanks, but I'm still confused. The
noble grapes article makes no mention of this grape, is there a separate list of "noble grapes of Bordeaux", or is the other article wrong? The fact that "6 noble grapes" is mentioned in both articles would lead one to believe that those 6 grapes are more or less universally agreed on, but that doesn't seem to be the case? Was the carménère grape replaced with another when it was thought lost?
86.14.229.187 (
talk)
22:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)reply
I'm extremely surprised to see Carmenère referred to as a "noble grape"! It seems that the two articles referred to for that statement seems to make the connection "noble grape" = "all grape varieties allowed in red Bordeaux". If Carmenère, Malbec and Petit Verdot are supposed to be noble, how long would the total list of noble varieties be? 30? 50? In any instance, too long to be a very useful definition, I would say.
Tomas e (
talk)
18:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)reply
more sources that may elucidate this topic -
Jancis Robinson counts as six the number of noble varietals. "A Bordeaux Blend is a red wine that contains two or more of the “noble” varieties that are authorized for blending in the red wines of the Bordeaux region of France. Currently there is some debate as to whether those “noble” varietals number five or six. Master Sommelier Andrea Immer Robinson lists five in her book, “Great Wine Made Simple.” Those varieties are: Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Cabernet Franc, Petit Verdot, and Malbec. British Master of Wine, Jancis Robinson, lists six varietals. She cites the same five that Immer lists, but adds Carmenere." I have found tons of sources listing 6 varietals as being of noble, but none that define what the author means by noble.--
Charleenmerced Talk23:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)reply
The problem is with our
noble grape article which really needs a lot of work and is a difficult article already as it rather a subjective and vague phrase. The classic noble grapes from a worldwide perspective is historically Cab Sauv, Merlot, Pinot, Riesling, Sauv. Blanc and Chardonnay. The noble grapes of Bordeaux is done in a different usage than the classic terminology and includes the grapes that Charleen has mentioned-including Carmenere. There is also discussion in some wine resources of the noble grapes of Burgundy-Chard & Pinot and the noble grapes of Alsace-Gertie, Riesling, Pinot gris, etc. And probably many more "noble grapes" in different areas of the world. There is enough sources out there to write our noble grape article with this diverse spectrum of usage but I'm not sure who has the time or motivation to do that. Till then, the best solution for now is to remove the wiki link to the noble phrase article since it currently is more about the classic noble grapes rather then the Bordeaux ones.
AgneCheese/
Wine03:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)reply
I have always been taught that THE Noble Grapes were the three red and three white that are referred to in the Wiki article. As it states these are the International Grapes. The article about Carmenere refers to it as one of the original noble grapes of bordeaux - which should have a separate Wiki article. Any of the grapes contained within that title would be red grapes. Merlot, Cab, Malbec, etc. I think the solution here then is to create an article that is only about these grapes that were deemed the "noble grapes" found within blends made in Bordeaux. The "noble grapes" (Int'l grapes) article is probably more appropriately linked within the Carmenere article at the bottom where reference boxes typically list related items.
Ryan Reichert 14:58, 28 March 2008 (EST)
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