The contents of the Carbon neutrality page were
merged into
Net zero on August 23, 2023. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see
its history.
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talk page for discussing improvements to the
Carbon neutrality redirect. This is
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Net zero has stricter criteria than carbon neutrality in a few areas: the extent to which offsets can be used; timeline for claiming carbon neutral versus net zero; and types of offsets that can be used.
To be "carbon neutral", companies are allowed to balance any and all unabated emissions by purchasing offsets
[1][2]
. To reach "net zero", on the other hand, entities must first reduce their own emissions as much as possible first, and then they can use offsets to balance remaining emissions
[3][4][5][6]
. Therefore organizations can claim they are carbon neutral in the short term[1][2], whereas net zero is a longer term target.
The other key difference is that net zero has stricter criteria for what types of offsets can be used to balance emissions. To be "carbon neutral", offsets can be based on avoided or reduced emissions credits (ie offsets from protecting a forest, or from energy efficiency retrofits)[1][2]. However, to be net zero, offsets must be based on removals that are equal in magnitude and permanence to the emissions they balance [3][4][5][6]. Few offsets on the market today meet this criteria. Achieving global and organizational net zero will require substantial investment in greenhouse gas removal and storage technologies.
OxfordNetZero (
talk)
11:36, 22 March 2023 (UTC)reply
---
I will also add that the terms serve different purposes. Net zero is a climate-science concept that describes what it would take to stop global warming [7][8]
. Experts have worked backwards from this premise to define and operationalize net zero for organizations, sectors, and regions[3][4][5][6].
Carbon neutral is often seen as an interim state in the journey to net zero [5]. Another distinction is that products and services can be considered carbon neutral[1][2], whereas they cannot be called "net zero" unless the company itself is net zero[4].
OxfordNetZero (
talk)
11:36, 22 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Hello! Really happy to see a knowledgeable group of people interested in improving Wikipedia. If you want to create a seperate article for the term or split the article, you can do it yourself :). The guiding principle is
WP:BEBOLD. You can create a draft
WP:DRAFT, or propose a page
WP:split. In general,
WP:BE BOLD!
I would encourage you all to make a user page. If I'm not mistaken, y'all are doing a project together? It would be good to be transparant about that. Decisions here are made by consensus, and off-wiki collaboration may make that more difficult (
see these pitfalls).
—Femke 🐦 (
talk)
20:16, 22 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Hi @
Femkethank you for the information. We are a part of a wider team and did not mean to violate any rules. I will make a user page and consolidate our comments.
As Femke says Wikipedia policy is that user-ids are for individuals rather than groups.
Thanks for the clear explanation of the difference. That explanation is good enough to be put in one of the articles if you have not done so already.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
06:54, 24 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Thank you for the guidance @
Femke! We aren't looking to violate rules, more to get some thoughts together at the same time as going through the Wikipedia learning curve. As @
OxfordNetZero said, we would love all the support to get this important topic up and running. Is there anything else we should do to bring other voices in and reach consensus?
Our2050World (
talk)
10:48, 23 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Hi all, I am not per se against creating a new article called "Net zero" but I'd also like to add a word of caution here: just because "net zero" is different to "carbon neutrality" does not necessarily mean that two articles are needed. We could also set it up so that "net zero" is explained better within
carbon neutrality and then redirects to a particular section in that article. This is for example how I have done it for
planetary integrity: if you click on that it takes you to a specific section within
planetary boundaries.
A benefit of thinking of one article instead of two is that you would have a real incentive to improve
carbon neutrality first before rushing off to create a new
net zero article.
This can also be seen as an iterative process: why not first add content about "net zero" to
carbon neutrality and later, when it grows, split it off to a spin-off article?
Either way, please work on improving the
carbon neutrality at the same time. It probably needs it. I haven't looked at it in detail yet but I recently worked on
carbon footprint and you can see from its revision history that I took out a lot of fluff, outdated stuff as well as content that overlapped too much with
greenhouse gas emissions.
Hi @
EMsmilethank you for the insights. One key reason that we feel net zero should be its own page is that net zero--not carbon neutrality-- is what is required to reach the Paris Agreement and stop global warming. As mentioned above, carbon neutrality allows for an over-reliance on offsets. Given the state of removal technolgoy today, it is not feasible to scale up removals fast enough to reach our climate goals without deep reductions. So we feel it is extremely important to clarify these terms as they have wider implications for climate action and integrity. We will put a disclaimer that there is confusion in how they are used,and we will link to the carbon neutrality page when appropriate.
I see your point but please don't look at your potential new article in isolation. It would be great if you could improve also this article, as well as the
carbon offset article in parallel. At the end of the day, all these related articles need to fit together like a good puzzle game. We wouldn't gain much if we ended up with a great new article on
net zero but had remaining crappy and confusing content at
carbon neutrality and
carbon offset... In some cases it might just be a matter of culling and condensing, removing outdated content, moving overly detailed content to country sub-articles etc.
EMsmile (
talk)
10:32, 31 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, thanks for the tips. I will make sure to look at the neutrality and offset pages carefully to see how to make everything fit together. And will add edits to each.
OxfordNetZero (
talk)
10:55, 31 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Regarding the suggestion to improve articles in parallel, the long-term goal is of course to bring all articles up to a good level of quality but how to get there is up to you. Many new editors find it easier to work on one article at a time and that's perfectly OK. Any improvement anywhere is something to celebrate.
That said, might it be possible to make a single article that covers both carbon neutrality and net zero, and explain the similarities and differences throughout the article? I'm finding that explanations of the difference between carbon neutrality and net zero are intriguing but difficult to get my head around. It might be easier for the reader to understand the comparison if it's spread throughout an article rather than concentrated in one section.
If the idea of writing a single article for both topics hurts your head then don't worry about it for now. We can refactor things later. Cheers,
Clayoquot (
talk |
contribs)
16:52, 4 April 2023 (UTC)reply
References
^
abcdISO/DIS 14068 Greenhouse gas management and climate change management and related activities — Carbon neutrality. ISO. (2023, January 25). Retrieved March 22, 2023, from
https://www.iso.org/standard/43279.html
^Global Warming of 1.5 ºc - Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.” IPCC, 2018.
https://www.ipcc.ch/sr15/.
^Allen, Myles R., Pierre Friedlingstein, Cécile A.J. Girardin, Stuart Jenkins, Yadvinder Malhi, Eli Mitchell-Larson, Glen P. Peters, and Lavanya Rajamani. “Net Zero: Science, Origins, and Implications.” Annual Review of Environment and Resources 47, no. 1 (2022): 849–87.
https://doi.org/10.1146/annurev-environ-112320-105050.
What to do about the long list of country examples?
I am unsure what to do about the section "Example of pledges". This could blow out more and more and might not be so suitable for a high level article on carbon neutrality. I've just moved some content that I felt was overly detailed to relevant sub-articles. In many cases, I think the content could be moved to the "climate change in country X" articles (which presumably didn't exist when this article was first created). We already have an overview table which is probably more suitable than a section for each country?
EMsmile (
talk)
10:29, 31 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Practicalities of splitting Carbon neutrality and Net Zero
The
net zero article is getting quite close to review for approval now. Can we start to identify blocks of texts/edits that need to be made in this article so they can sit alongside each other?
Regarding improvements to make to
carbon neutrality that would help the two articles sit alongside each other, anything that gets rid of spam and trivia would be helpful. Anything that fixes statements that are wrong or confusing would be helpful. One confusing statement is the first sentence, "Carbon neutrality is a state of net zero
carbon dioxide emissions," It says CO2 emissions but links to
greenhouse gas emissions. So which is correct - CO2 or GHG? There's also a contradiction with the third paragraph - the first sentence says carbon neutrality = net zero and the third paragraph says carbon neutrality ≠ net zero.
Clayoquot (
talk |
contribs)
05:51, 18 April 2023 (UTC)reply
I have created a draft of a new carbon neutrality page at the link below. It is based on the original page, but with some significant edits to improve clarity and accuracy. I also took out parts that were unique to Net Zero, which hopefully could have a new page. I still need to add some citations to it, but it is almost done.
I was wondering if you could please take a look and let me know what you think or edit it directly. If it looks good, I will attempt to upload it to the original carbon neutrality page.
Hi, I am unsure what you mean with "If it looks good, I will attempt to upload it to the original carbon neutrality page."? Do you mean you would replace all the current content at
carbon neutrality with your new draft? Or does it mean you would edit incrementally, i.e. remove and add a few sentences at a time, each time explaining your edit and why (a bit like what I did in the last few days at
greenhouse gas emissions; I didn't add new content though, just re-arranged and culled). In general, I think it's almost always better to edit incrementally rather than in one big sweep. Unless you would argue that the current carbon neutrality article ought to be "blown up" (see
WP:TNT)?
Regarding your draft, I have only briefly glanced over it; as you say, a lot of references are still missing. It reads in part a bit like an essay or
WP:OR. But once you make all the statements verifiable with good references, that will improve it a lot.
Overall, thanks for all your work on this, always great to see new people join in this effort on climate change topics!
EMsmile (
talk)
18:55, 21 June 2023 (UTC)reply
" I think it's almost always better to edit incrementally" - I think this sounds like the right approach (more effort, but more transparent), if it's possible.
Re the draft style, @
EMsmile, do you think there needs to be some more refinement on the sandbox before edits to the live page starts? Or shall "we" (not sure who "we" is) begin?
My gut feeling is that you and Leanunu have generally mastered the art of Wikipedia writing (but please include references each time, see
WP:VERIFY and
WP:Identifying reliable sources (science)!), so I would say go ahead with editing the live article. See also the comments and questions by Clayoquot above on 18 April; it seems you haven't addressed them yet (discussions on talk pages are very very important for Wikipedians).
Oh and another top tip: Be aware of the dangers of
WP:close paraphrasing, and of course of copyright infringement. This is a problem that I've struggled to master fully - even after many years - and this, and other aspects, resulted in a
WP:CCI investigation for all my edits which is still ongoing (see
here)...
Great about bringing in more people to the Wikipedia universe, which tactic are you following for this? I have also tried this for years and have had only minimal success so far (please send me a message through the Wikipedia e-mail system if you want to discuss this aspect in more detail one on one; or on the talk page of WikiProject Climate Change perhaps).
EMsmile (
talk)
20:19, 21 June 2023 (UTC)reply
@
EMsmile Firstly, thank you! We are trying and the encouragement is much appreciated!
Agree on the references and will address this. I think the points from @
Clayoquot have now been address here [
[1]]. As well as the close paraphrasing/investigation - noted.
On the bringing more people in, I have been trying to get more people to subscribe to some of the brilliant Wikimedia foundation training sessions as well as letting a broad set of climate experts know how much of a problem the lack of a net zero page is. Love to talk further and thanks again for all your help! @
LeanunuOur2050World 🌏 (
talk)
07:49, 22 June 2023 (UTC)reply
How to deal with the criticism section
Now that we have a separate article on
net zero, I have moved the criticism section to there (as it was talking about net zero) and then brought it back via an excerpt. However, I am unclear on whether this is good like this. It seems to me that the criticism usually applies to both, to the carbon neutrality concept and the net zero concept equally? Don't people who talk about these criticisms just use the two terms interchangeably? Or is there a clear difference in the way people criticise one concept versus the other? Pinging
User:Boyd Reimer who worked on this criticism section in the past.
EMsmile (
talk)
21:13, 1 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Only CO2 or all GHGs?
So is there consensus whether climate carbon neutrality (edit: I meant carbon neutrality) is only about CO2 or about all GHGs? It seems to me there is no consensus yet and therefore this should be made clear early on, already in the first paragraph of the lead. Or it might be like
carbon footprint which some use for only CO2 (like IPCC) but the general trend is that it's for all GHGs. So far this does not come out clearly in the lead yet. (my recent changes to the first sentence of the lead tried to improve on that but I might have failed)
EMsmile (
talk)
21:53, 1 August 2023 (UTC)reply
As a country Turkey buys a lot of coal from Russia (hey it is cheap now). But methane emissions from Russian coal mines go on their “net zero” target not ours. But if we were a company not a country they would go on our net zero target if I understand right
Chidgk1 (
talk)
19:27, 5 August 2023 (UTC)reply