This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Buddhism in Japan article. This is
not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Buddhism, an attempt to promote better coordination, content distribution, and cross-referencing between pages dealing with
Buddhism. If you would like to participate, please visit the
project page for more details on the projects.BuddhismWikipedia:WikiProject BuddhismTemplate:WikiProject BuddhismBuddhism articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Japan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Japan-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to
participate, please visit the
project page, where you can join the project, participate in
relevant discussions, and see
lists of open tasks. Current time in Japan: 10:46, July 11, 2024 (
JST,
Reiwa 6) (Refresh)JapanWikipedia:WikiProject JapanTemplate:WikiProject JapanJapan-related articles
This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
project-independent quality rating in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us
assess and improve articles to
good and
1.0 standards, or visit the
wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion articles
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 January 2022 and 30 April 2022. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Ssimms77 (
article contribs).
"Japanese culture maintained an uneasy relation to Buddhist culture"?
The statement "Japanese culture maintained an uneasy relation to Buddhist culture. While the Chinese culture was admired, Buddhism was also regarded as a strange influence." does not appear to make sense. It appear to be
Shinbutsu bunri -someones perspective - perhaps what Department of Divinity ("jingikan") established in 1869 might have promoted as a part of newly developed
State Shinto doctrine.
Malaiya (
talk)
01:37, 7 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Problems re Kamakura Buddhism, Zen schools
I hesitate to think that I could offer any improvement to this awe-inspiring article, but here goes.
The section
Buddhism_in_Japan#Kamakura_Buddhism appears under
Buddhism_in_Japan#Japanese_Buddhist_schools, suggesting to naive readers such as myself that Kamakura is a school of Japenese Buddhism. Of course, it's nothing of the sort, but merely a scholarly misnomer for Buddhism during the
Kamakura period in Japenese history. I would prefer the more accurate title, Buddhism during the Kamakura Period.
The first sentence of the section
Buddhism_in_Japan#Zen_Schools hides its subject through the use of passive voice. As god is my witness (I mean Grammarly), this is usually a bad idea. The long second sentence is undocumented, surprising, and unexplained. This paragraph, like several others, reads as if it were part of an article titled "History of Buddhism in Japan." Here are a couple of alternate ways to start out that the naive reader may find more useful, one from Brittanica, and one that I just came up with:
Zen, Chinese Chan, Korean Sŏn, also spelled Seon, Vietnamese Thien, [is an] important school [tradition] of East Asian Buddhism that constitutes the mainstream monastic form of Mahayana Buddhism in China, Korea, and Vietnam and accounts for approximately 20 percent of the Buddhist temples in Japan. ~
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Zen
Missing Citations
I'm not too sure if anybody's on this yet, but...
There are quite a few missing citations that seem that they have been in limbo since 2013. They're not hard to find, skimming through the article will be enough to locate the majority of the missing citations. Thanks in advance. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Criag S. (
talk •
contribs)
22:54, 5 May 2020 (UTC)reply
Main article:
Japanese Zen.
The Zen tradition began with the Chinese meditation master Bodhidharma. Bodhidharma's emphasis on meditation distinguishes Zen from earlier forms of Buddhism that emphasized reading, memorizing and commenting on sutras, or forms that emphasized chanting such as Pure Land. The Chinese word for meditation is Ch'an, which got transliterated to Zen when
Eisai,
Dōgen,
Ingen, and others brought Ch'an to Japan.
A user whose many IPs all geolocate to the same position in Pune, India, has been repeatedly making edits that do not adhere to the
neutral point of view policy. The edits have misrepresented sources, such as this:
[1], claiming to indicate that 96% of the population are Buddhists, or edits that show only the ACA figures of about 67% and ignore other reliable sources and estimates that put it much lower, at 20-40%. The user's edits have a long history of incorrectly inflating the number of Buddhists, with improperly cited or unsourced/original content, in many articles, for example:
[2]. I'm asking them to stop doing this, otherwise the article(s) may need to be protected from IP editing. Their IP today was 2409:4042:2512:56c0::2003:a8a5 (
talk). I and others have left many warnings and tried to contact them via their talk pages, with no response. I hope they will see this. --
IamNotU (
talk)
13:31, 9 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Indianisation
Buddhism originated in India, but it is absurd to describe the introduction of Buddhism as 'Indianisation'.
Of course, it is also absurd to describe the introduction of a culture or technology that originated in Japan as 'Japanisation'.
Moreover, Japan did not introduce Buddhism directly from India.
The Buddhism that Japan introduced was influenced by Chinese Buddhism, and its architecture, Buddhist statues and scriptures were quite different from those of India, making it even more absurd to describe it as "Indianisation".--
SLIMHANNYA (
talk)
10:48, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Just like spread of Chinese culture/religion/language comes under
Sinosphere, Same way Spread of Indian culture/language/Religion comes under "Indosphere" and "
Indianization"[1], Buddhism is indeed an Indian religion. Infact we call south east Asia "Indianized" because of the
same reason i.e Spread of Buddhism/Hinduism there. Buddhism indeed was introduced to Japan from China and Korea, But their buddhism itself was evolved from the Indian
Mahayana Buddhism.[2][3][4] So clearly it is an Indianisation.
Malik-Al-Hind (
talk)
11:09, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes, but it underwent many changes in China before going on to Japan. By the time it enters Japan, it is a sinicized kind of Buddhism, [[Chinese Buddhism]]. Though its root is in India, its not really accurate to use "Indianization" in this context. If anything, it would be Sinicization.
Javier F.V.12:18, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Sure. But what source uses the word "Indianisation" with respect to Japanese Buddhism? We follow the sources, so if you have one, please provide it ...
Skyerise (
talk)
13:22, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Gordon White puts it in
WP:SCAREQUOTES, which means he is implying that there is no such thing but that some people mistakenly use the term. The other book does the same thing: 'Indianization of Japan and China was different than in Southeast Asia, both "Indianizations" produced a marked change in philosophy'. You'll have to do better than that. The cultural influence of the influx of Buddhism from China is generally considered by sources to be Chinese, not Indian. By comparison, the term
Sinicization of Japan is used in multiple reliable sources.
Skyerise (
talk)
14:53, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I only see the book of Gordon agreeing with the "indianization" of it. He even further explains what Indianization of japan means by further explaining the transmission of buddhism and adaption of hindu deties in it. As for the other book, "Indianization of japan was different than indianization of indonesia".
This itself is a proof that it is "agreeing" with Indianization. It only tells us about the difference between the cultural spheres (Indianization) in these 2 countries (indonesia and Japan). Infact the name of the para/chapter itself is "Indianization of japa
As for "Sinicization" I agree that japan was sinicized and multiple sources accept this, But Indian cultural sphere of common in japan as well, Infact buddhism shaped the culture of japan in every aspect as per the following books i quoted, which also calls it specifically "Indianized"
Malik-Al-Hind (
talk)
15:30, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
White doesn't use the term anywhere else in the book, just the once in scare quotes. Your other "source" directly contradicts you. Stratton writes at the begininning of Chapter 5: (p. 82): "It was no doubt carried into Northeast Asia during its own 'Indianization' period. The 'Indianization' spoken of here, however, was not like the one that took place in Southeast Asian nations. Instead, Indian influences had to contend and blend with already pre-existing, and more dominant cultural domains in different ways than they did in Southeast Asia where prior to Indianization there were no 'major' civilizations influencing the area." - Note how he uses the term without scarequotes for Southeast Asia, but uses scarequotes implying it is a wrong view when referring to Northeast Asia. Is English your first language? You don't seem to understand the subtleties of the use of scare quotes to say the opposite of what appears to be being said literally. I'm sure the other two editors involved in this discussion will agree on the meaning of this use of scare quotes.
Skyerise (
talk)
15:41, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Mate he even puts Scare quotes before Indianization of indonesia. Here:
"Buddhism was the main avenue by which "Indianization" took place. Although the Indianization of Japan and China was different than in Southeast Asia, both "Indianizations" produced a marked change in philosophy. It was this change in philosophy that stimulated and produced some of the finest works of Asian civilization. It is still debated by many scholars as to the true effect, if any, Hinduism had on the Buddhist countries of Northeast Asia. Due to the "polytheistic" nature of Mahayana Buddhism some scholars suspect this might have played a role at some point. It is a fact that many of the Shingon deities, seen as protectors of Buddhism, are in fact derived from Brahmanic gods. However, that is a debate that requires a completely different study for its examination."
Here you can clearly see it doesn't use scare quote before "Indianization of japan" (I have highlighted it" but he uses scare quotes when talking about Indianization of indonesia and japan.
Does it mean he is disagreeing with Indianization of indonesia? Ofcourse not.
1)-He doesn't put scare quotes before "Indianization of japan"
Moreover the paragraph you quoted also agreed with Indianization of Japan, But says it was different than indianization of indoenesia. The only thing is it puts Scare quotes before "Indianization of japan" but few pages later it doesn't use the same scare quotes again
Malik-Al-Hind (
talk)
15:56, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Well, both authors actual intended meaning is completely clear to a native English speaker. I am done here. If you can't convince the other editors on the article talk page, you may not make your intended change to the article.
Skyerise (
talk)
15:59, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes sure, Saying that the sources are contradictory when it quite clearly agrees with the Indianization of japan and even further explains how it is different from Indianization of indonesia.
Basically, both authors are clearly implying that the terms "Indianization" and "Indosphere" (a term in linguistics) are properly used only for a direct influence from India via an Indian language, and that where the influence was indirect and colored by Chinese language and culture, it is incorrect to use the term. This agrees with common usage.
Skyerise (
talk)
16:49, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Both of the scholars are literally agreeing with my claim and are often speaking about Indianization of Japan/china. Not to mention they are even explaining the difference between Indianization of Japan/china with that of Indonesia.
Malik-Al-Hind (
talk)
18:48, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Well, the view is
WP:FRINGE and not accepted by historians, including the ones you are quoting. That's why the words are in quotation marks. The terms "
Greater India" and "
Indianization" are artifacts of Hindu nationalistic scholarship from the 1920s to 1970s and are both related to the transmission of Hinduism - not Buddhism. We have a whole separate article on the transmission of Buddhism, which is not normally referred to as "Indianization". That article is
Silk Road transmission of Buddhism.
Skyerise (
talk)
18:55, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Reference
Zen School
Echoing the comments from the topic "Problems re Kamakura Buddhism, Zen schools" (which doesn't have a "reply" button or an editor listed), I think that the section on schools needs some work. Specifically, there are a lot of sources on Japanese Zen, but it is not well defined in this article. I think that a summary from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy would be a good addition.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/japanese-zen/ The section is currently organized as more of a historical lineage rather than a discussion of the schools' philosophies. Please share any thoughts before I tackle these changes. —Zujine|
talk13:23, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
^Lancaster, Lewis, "The Movement of Buddhist Texts from India to China and the Construction of the Chinese Buddhist Canon", pp. 226-227, in Buddhism Across Boundaries--Chinese Buddhism and the Western Regions, ed. John R McRae and Jan Nattier, Sino-Platonic Papers 222, Philadelphia, PA: Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations, University of Pennsylvania (2012)
^Jiang Wu, "The Chinese Buddhist Canon" in The Wiley Blackwell Companion to East and Inner Asian Buddhism, p. 299, Wiley-Blackwell (2014).