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Uanfala, I don't remember which source had it, but here are some that show up in searches:
Cheers, Kautilya3 ( talk) 14:11, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
Shina speakers in Baltistan are called Brokpa by speakers of Balti and have been for centuries (cf. Biddulph 1880: 46). Their variety of Shina has also been called Brokskat by scholars (for example, Schmidt 1985b: 680). [1]
References
The brokpa people are only in dha ,hanu ,garkhone ,darchik ,batalik ,sharchey ,chulichan , These are a very small village and the population of dha hanu is around 1700, Garkhone is somewhere around 1800 and darchik is 1000 and batalik ,sharchey and chulichan is around 1500. So the total population is 5500 only in india And 500 in ganokh village . Which makes 6000 population. But There is a also people of called brokpa in drass which has a population of an around 35000 , The brokpa of dha hanu and brokpa of drass are completely different group speaking different langauge which is unintelligible to each other . And these page is about brokpa people of dha hanu , But they uses the population of drass brokpa which has been counted in a census as brokpa as schedule tribe So Wikipedia is accepting the schedule tribe population and it shows more than 30000 brokpa population . And these need to be correct . Minaro123 ( talk) 20:35, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
References
Because the census of India 2011 schedule tribe of India have combined shin people and brokpa - Minaro has included in a one schedule tribe which has a somewhere around 40000 population . however people of drass has already included in a brokpa- shin people page and they speaks shina langauge .the brokpa - minaro has only 3000 langauge and they speaks Brokskat . brokskat is unintelligible to shina langauge . Minaro123 ( talk) 07:47, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Could admin please change it Minaro123 ( talk) 17:19, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
References
Hello sir , The schedule tribe of 2011 census added Brokpa-minaro and shin people as term as brokpa. Please check the census for reference. And the population of Brokpa -minaro is hardly 3000, And the population of Shin people of ladakh is more than 30 thousand .
They speak a different language and they are belong to different ethnicity . The langauge the brokpa -minaro speak is hardly 3000 and that is called brokskat .
If these page is about the brokpa schedule tribe of census 2011 which included shin people and brokpa -minaro both , Then they says that brokpa are found only in dha,hanu and darchik . The people of dha ,hanu and darchik is a minaro-brokpa and they are hardly 3000. If these page if about brokpa schedule tribe then please add drass where there are 30000 brokpa and add a picture of drassi shin people. Id these is a case then i am going to create a sperate page about brokpa -minaro which are endangered ethnic group and hardly 3000 people are there Minaro123 ( talk) 08:04, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
There were some user who is reverting back the brokpa page to its previous edit where there was a misleading population number for these brokpa ethnic group, Now these page is improved and misleading ethnic group of Brokpa is added here , Please avoid reverting back without a discussion Minaro123 ( talk) 16:04, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
Since your edits have been reverted (multiple times), you need to propose your changes here and obtain WP:CONSENSUS. Please do not reinstate contentious content without CONSENSUS. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 17:03, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
Please check the census for reference.Have you checked it? Yes or no, please! -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 10:40, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
References
Brokskat is spoken around the village of Garkhon in Ladakh by approximately 3000 people (Ethnologue 1996). Though historically it belongs with the Gilgit group, Brokskat has converged with Tibeto-Burman languages and is not mutually intelligible with other Shina dialects (Schmidt 1998a, b, Radloff 1992: 99).
@ Kautilya3: No where in the image you have shown is written that Brokpa is a dilect of Shina langauge , it has given an ambiguous statement which says " brokskat belong to gilgiti group which doesn't mean that brokskat is a dilect of Shina langauge , Secondly if these langauge is not mutually ineligible to other Shina langauge then how could it be a dilect of Shina? The research says Shianic group of eastern dardic group has many dilect . 1: Brokskat 2: shina:Shina is divided into three dilect That is
2.1:Astori 2.1.1) gurezi 2.1.2) Drassi 2.2: Chilasi 2.3: gilgiti
These langauge tree was made after a research and studying of book .
But in different book , different writer write differently according to their opinion .
So , brokskat is not dilect of Shina langauge ,though it is a shiniac langauge .
Brokskat is not mutually intelligence with other Shina dilect .( Written in book)
Though ,gurezi ,drassi speak the Astori dilect of[ Shina] langauge ,and they are called Shina people which they have a already separate page . [1] .
The drassi and gurezi people who speaks
Shina langauge are already included In a
shina people so no need to make a sperate page for them .
My proposal is just to changed the name of "Brokpa" to "Brokpa ( Minaro) "or "Brokpa of Aryan valley" or Minaro or simply keep the Brokpa so that it would avoid confusion among other people .
Minaro123 ( talk) 10:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
I belong to these Brokpa tribe of dha hanu valley, Our people doesn't get the benefits of protection of language and culture because NGO and government would ignore us because these Brokpa pages says we are 40000, but in reality we are only 3000, even though being the endangered ethnic group and speaks a endangered langauge of brokskat . Brokpa(Minaro) is a dying distinct ethnicc group and please show a truth to the world by including a right numbers of population which is between 3000 to 5000
Minaro123 ( talk) 10:59, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
@ Gotitbro: sir ,please take some intervention in these issue and show the truth to the world .
Baily(1924) divides Shina into three dilect that is gilgiti ,Astori ,gurez, and drass . [2]
Baily doesn't included brokskat into Shina langauge .
And moreever they says that Brokskat is unintelligible with other Shina dilect and brokskat is a outlier of Shina langauge.
Minaro123 ( talk) 11:21, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
When these Brokpa page was created at first ,it was only about the Brokpa of dha hanu valley ,please have a look at the first edit of these Brokpa page
References
There is an unresolved problem of what this page is about.
Should this page be about the first group or the second group? (Pinging Uanfala, TrangaBellam, Gotitbro, Fylindfotberserk, Aman.kumar.goel, FactsResearcher, Utcursch) -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 15:31, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
(Pinging Kautilya3, Gotitbro) The remaining brokpa of Dras in Kargil and Gurez in Baramulla who speaks a Astori dilect of shina langauge [1] is already convered in Shina people page. So no need to split it. These page should be for Brokskat speakers of brokpa ethnic group of dha hanu region . Instead you can add a "brokpa ,dard and shin" terminology in the page of shina people section .
Make these page solely dedicated for Brokpa of dha hanu valley, because I have already created the Brokpa, Drokpa, Dard, and Shin(Dardic Tribes) page to include the Dardic tribe which has two ethnic group and added i. A Schedule Tribes sometimes called Brokpa - shin or Dard with the choice of writer ,there are the schedule tribe of former of Jammu and Kashmir state . You can add the British Raj Brokpa, Drokpa, Dard, and Shin(Dardic Tribes) definition of Brokpa there , but
These page Brokpa is dedicated to the Brokpa of dha hanu valley of Brokpa who speaks Brokskat.
And there population is only 1920 according to the 1991 cencus of India they are found in only Dah, Leh, hanoo, garkon and darchik villages and add accordingly their population . There origin is not Chilas, please add their correct origin as there have been discussed by a newspaper. Also add their cultural dress,festivals,rituals and belief accordingly. Minaro123 ( talk) 11:46, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
References
@ Kautilya3: Brokpa is a Tibetan name for " hilly people " , Brokpa is a name given to the Minaro people of dha hanu by the Tibetan decent group of Ladakhi and Balti because of them living in a hilly places in past. It is not their ethnici name ,they call themselves minaro .( There are many references search on book) . Similarly Dards is a word for hilly people in Sanskrit langauge . Though Minaro people are not of Tibetan decent.
There is a Tibetan decent group oin Bhutan also called " Brokpa" because of living in a hilly places of Bhutan , they are called "sagtengpa " or dakpa or Brokpa . The reference is here [1]. And these sagtengpa ,dakpa is added in these [ [brokpa ]] page under the section of groups . They are called sagtengpa because they live in Sakteng valley of Bhutan , Sakteng + pa( pa is used for a person who live there) . Sakteng pa means " a person who lives in sakteng . Likelywise , Brok pa is used for someone who lives in a brok( hill) And i notices these before that's the reason I edited it and corrected in past in these wikepedia page but there are "so called" "expert" who always reverted my edit . Please correct it ,i am always with real and raw truth Minaro123 ( talk) 09:49, 2 December 2022 (UTC) Please change.these page name to Minaro ,it is a name which they called themselves , While brokpa or Dard is like saying " hilly people " . There could be many hilly people in these world and it would create confusions among them
@ Kautilya3:
Change the name from brokpa to Minaro .
Brokpa means " hill people " in Tibetan langauge . And Dard also means " hill people " in indo aryan langauge . There are many hill people in different part of the world , Such as 1:Brokpa of Bhutan (hilly people of Bhutan)),they are in merak and sakteng of Bhutan , [1]
2:Brokpa (hill people) of Arunachal [2]
3:Drokpa ( a pronounciation of Brokpa in Tibetan accent)):( a hill people of Tibet) They are also found in Tibet . [3]
4: Brokpa of Ladakh and Baltistan>
These people are
hill people and that's the reason they are being called brokpa ,
Brokpa is not a ethinicity or linguistic term .
And it shouldn't be a name of a ethinic group , The brokpa of dha hanu call themselves minaro , and the langauge they speak is also called Minaro ( see brokskat) While other Tibetan decent of their neighbours like Ladakhis call them brokpa or Drokpa . .it would be difficult to distinguish them if we call every hill peopl as brokpa irrespective of their native name Minaro123 ( talk) 10:22, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
proposal Make a separate page called Brokpa equipment to " hill people of "Tibet,Bhutan and india" and write the defination of Brokpa there and list all the brokpa communities there ( hill people) , But when in term of Ethinic group , write their individual ethnic name like Minaro for dha hanu brokpa with reference. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minaro123 ( talk • contribs)
Not done. Please see WP:TITLE for how pages should be titled, in particular WP:COMMONNAME. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 11:59, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: Not Moved. Withdrawn by the nominator in the light of the discussion. Kautilya3 ( talk) 23:37, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
– The page Brokpa was started to cover the Dardic tribes in the lower Indus valley in Ladakh, but the term "Brokpa" is used for a much larger group of people distributed in Baltistan and the Drass area of the Kargil district. The proposal is to rename this page to "Brokpa Minaro", Minaro being the endonym used by this group, so that the "Brokpa" page title is released to cover all other groups. Kautilya3 ( talk) 23:47, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
@ Kautilya3: In most of the books ,articles and other resources , these Dardic tribes Brokpa, Drokpa, Dard, and Shin(Dardic Tribes) are called "Dards" ( search Dards in books resources and internet and see by yourself) And These Dards are called brokpa by only the Tibetic ethinic neighbour which is Ladakhis , purigpa and Balti and brokpa is a their Tibetic word . However These Dardic langauge speaker are popular as Dards among writers and other non Tibetic people . Dards and Brokpa has a same meaning which means Hill people (( you would find a lot of reference on internet)). Should we title them as " Brokpa " or " Dards" , choose the title wisely by looking at the total number of reliable reference which supports these Title . My point of view is ,these group should have a Title as "Dards " and it would be more appropriate because it would has a reference to back up and in name section you can write like " Dards are called brokpa by its neighbouring group like Ladakhis and Balti . There Dards group contain a a different ethnic group and there be more than one langauge spoken by these Dards . -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minaro123 ( talk • contribs)
@ Kautilya3: Dard people is not a single ethnic group which could be traced to one ancestor so far ( cited in source) ,Dard people are the one who speak Dardic language , Kalasha people are other Dardic people are also counted as Dards by some writers( see in book for "Dard" for reference) . Dards people more like saying tlike Dravidian peoples , indo Aryan people rather than pointing to any single ethnic group. For example: It is not possible to make only Dravadian people for whole Dravadian speaking langauge , there are Tamil Telugu people ,so they deserve individual page . My proposal is deeply search the mentioned of "Dard" in all book and list all the people that it refer to and write down their reference and changed the Brokpa, Drokpa, Dard, and Shin(Dardic Tribes) to Dard people and list their ethnic group there as claimed by a writers . And Minaro people, Shina people would be a ethnicity under these Dard Tribes . @ Kautilya3: Dards people as [ [2]] page is already created as I have found just now , Rohit vohra meant Minaro people by mean Buddhist Dards, because apparently by sources , minaro is the only Dards who is still following the Buddhist religion.
It quotes " " Dards”, nowadays denoting the speakers of Dardic languages, in Francke's time it was used for Burushaski speaker and even Tibetic." [ [3]]
@
Kautilya3:
After i read many books and article and lot of research on the topic of Dardic tribe , and Brokpa my proposal is :
Proposal: final solution: First point : 1: Don't change the name from "brokpa" to "brokpa Minaro" because let it be , because there are more than around thousands and book and newspapers ,articles refering Buddhist Dards as Brokpa.They are residing in around dha hanu, These Buddhist Dards are called brokpa by most journal . However the call themselves minaro , brokpa is a name given to them by outsider ,They speak Brokskat, I will send you the reference of those book ,if you want ,as you would find it abundantly on reliable Google book and library and newspapers etc.There population was somewhere around 2000 according to 1991 cencus ,please refer . They are Buddhist Dards.
2: Second point :
Dards refer to group of people speaking Dardic languages , there are grouped as Dards because of having archaic words of Indo iranian in their langauge, however there is no evidence of having them common ancestor .( Written in Dardic langauge page).
These Dard people is like saying ,indo aryan people , Dravadian people , Caucasian etc .
Dard people could not be a single ethinicity ,it is a word for all those speaker who speak Dardic langauge .
3: third point : Brokpa,Drokpa , Dard and shin are made up of multiple Tribes who are grouped into a single schedule Tribes ,they belong different ethinicity as I have given a reference in the talk section of Brokpa,Drokpa,dard and shin ( Dardic Tribes ) page ,
4: Schedule Tribes is only for unprivilege and those who lives in a far flung areas . Though there were many Dardic Tribes or Dards in former jammu and kashmir like kashmiri(speaks Kashmiri), Brokpa( Buddhist Dards),Drokpa( shin , speaking shina of Drass) etc .
However , the Dards like kashmiri weren't included under the Schedule Tribes because they were privileged and living in a developed area of Kashmir ,they are not a tribal people .
Schedule tribe of India has included all unprivilege Dardic Tribes into a single group called Brokpa, Drokpas,Dard and shin . The Dard of Drass ( called as shin because they speaks Astori dilect of shina ) are all muslim as cited by sources and Dards of North kahsmiir ( Gurez valley in Baramulla) are muslim .
5: we shouldn't use the whole cencus population of a (Schedule Tribes) Tribes of Dards Brokpa ,Drokpa,Dard and shin which was around 40,000 for the small Buddhist Dards known as Brokpa , The brokpa were somewhere around 2000 according to the 1981 cencus Please correct the cencus and also things like their origin in Brokpa page needs to change , Please give me a Liberty to change to brokpa page ,i would cited every sentence with a justified sentence because I am from ladakh and. I belong to brokpa tribe so I can easily search for reference in book by using certain keywords which I am familiar with related to brokpa people , Brokpa is a sperate ethnic group speaking brokskat and they called themselves minaro ,these group are believed to be a pure aryan and some rearacher consider them to to the descendants of alexander army, it is cited by many award winning research articles and book .
The last point: The thing you are saying that brokpa was used by British Empire for whole Dards once of ladakh and baltistan was once ,There are no reference for that , maybe there is hardly one or two ,and British Raj happened Before 1947, and It is outdated ,And i think British Raj uses the word brokpa because Dard used to live in a hilly places. After i did a reaserch in throughout the library , nowhere any single articles or book is published with a title Brokpa and i including Brokpa as A Dards of Former Jammu and Kashmir and gilgit baltistan .Since Brokpa meant Hill people , the balti sometimes use these word referring the shina speaking people .It is not their ethinic word ,it meant pasture or hill people, not only in gilgit baltistan,but also in Bhutan ,sakteng valley and even in Arunachal ,they use the word brokpa referring to the hill people of their state . However now the Brokpa(Buddhist Dards of around dha ) term represent a official Ethnicity term of Minaro people ,as you will found a more than few thousand of articles ,book of them in Google . Now brokpa word is privileged only to Buddhist Dard to say Officialy by writers and historians and even by official government as of 2022.
The page on Aryan valley has been nominated for deletion. You can find the deletion discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aryan valley. Please feel free to add your comments since that topic intersects with the topic of this page. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 00:20, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
Brokpa is a name given by Ladakhis .however their native and true name is Minaro. Traditionally. In ancient time. Minaro is a Ethnic group speaking Minaro langauge and following Minaro religion . These people were concentrated in Aryan valley ( Dha ,Hanu ,Garkon , Darchik). The all people of Dha ,hanu ,Garkon ans Darchik are Minaro. However Traditionally the Minaro people were also Hamlets like Sharchey ,Chulichan and batalik in India . In chulichan there were a mixture of Minaro with Tibetan muslim . There were only two household of Minaro in Tsirmo(silmo) and Lalung . And Ganokh village was inhabited by Minaro.
In ancient time , all of them use to follow :Minaro religion which is animism :worship of their own sprits , they had a rituals like sacrifice a goat to their own spirit who keep a eye on their area and protect them from any kind of misfortune. They used to have a Sabdak ,where they used to offer a small price of food before eating them .They don't use to take the milk of cow, They don't use to eat the meat of cow , they had social restrictions to use any kind related to cow because it's considered bad for them.
Festivals: They had their festival which is used like Bono-na ,which is used to celebrate to Thanksgiving their Dieties for good crops . Traditional dresses: They had their. Unique traditional dresses . Greetings: they had their unique way of greetings which is mentioned by a British explorer in 19 century.
AT present : Only the people of dha ,hanu ,Garkon and Darchik have still retained their ancient culture , festival ,rituals , religion ,dresses , traditional folk song .
These people of dha ,hanu ,Garkone and Darchik have superficially accepted Buddhism, however these people still follows their ancient culture and religion side by side . And they still call themselves ' Minaro'. And more interestingly still these people follows polygamy and marries only in their own community to keep them pure Minaro.
However,
The Minaro who was settled in Ganokh , Sharchey and few of them are in chulichan etc .
They are converted to strictly Shia Islam .
They follows islamic cultural.
Since their conversion of Islam , they have forgotten their ancient culture , traditional, religion .
Only they speaks ' Minaro' langauge .
Interestingly ,now the Minaro of Aryan valley doesn't consider them their own community . Now ,the muslim Minaro are openly married with their muslim neighbour like Balti etc .
2: There is not a single Hindu Minaro, no Minaro have got converted to hindu .so the brokpa page says there is some Hindu brokpa which is not true ,if there is any then please mention any single articles showing them . They are mostly Buddhist Dards who still practice their ancient religion .
And there are fewer strictly Shia brokpa who no longer practice any single ritual of their past .
Conclusion:
1:Should we consider the Muslim Brokpa a Minaro?
Because they are strictly musium followers and mingled with their neighbours muslim?
2: can we have a more correct number of Minaro population and their religion?
3: For example:In kalash people , there is a statement"people in nuristan had the same culture and practised a faith very similar to that of the Kalash, differing in a few minor particulars.". However the people who left the kalasha religion are not considered kalsha people ,they are given a lower important .
So , should we also consider the Muslim Minaro who left their ancient religion and mingled with their neighbours muslim as Minaro?
I want to have a Discussion , i don't want to blindly go and change without having a Discussion . collaboration and discussion is one of the policies of wikepedia .
3: The article of Brokpa needs to have a correct figure after a series of discussion with source .
The present Brokpa articles needs improvement
Minaro123 (
talk)
09:54, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
I agree. Although I am focused on this one at the moment. If Minaro is a cultural designation -- and there are parallels to this among the North American indigenous, so this is not exactly unheard of -- then genetic studies are irrelevant. As an aside, the term Bropka also seems to be likely erroneous and due to British amateurs adopting the nomenclature of another ethnic group. There is a parallel to this in North America, where 9th-century ruins were ascribed to the "Anasazi" because that is what the Navajo told them. Come to find out "Anasazi" means "enemies" in the Navajo language. They are now known as the "Pueblo ancestors". We call people by the name the call themselves. Look it up. Question: do the Muslims Consider themselves Minaro? It sounds to me like they want to assimilate. But bottom line, yes, we should discuss this cultural vs genetic thing. Elinruby ( talk) 11:28, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Please see the page move discussion above before making fresh proposals. Wikipedia nomenclature follows WP:COMMONNAME, not based on what is "right".
Hassan Janhal, the move discussion also gravitated to the view that the "Brokpa" term is currnetly in use for only the "central" group (central Ladakh + Ganokh in Baltistan). These people apparently arrived in the first millennium AD and speak Brokskat, which has been called the "oldest surviving Dardic language". -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 11:59, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
"Oldest surviving Dardic language" is nonsense; I have nil idea what it means and would be surprised to see any serious linguist reiterate the claim. Besides, I added the very-obvious Purik (TB) influence from the immediate neighbors. TrangaBellam ( talk) 18:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
TrangaBellam ( talk) 19:56, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
This 3D satellite image of at Kharmang in Baltistan, illustrates the Brokpa phenomenon. You see the reguar village spread out along the (Indus) valley floor. And there are other people occupying some level ground on hilltops, figuring out how to channel the water there and growing food. These are the people that the Baltis called "Brokpa" (highlander).
Almost all the Brokpa villages are perched on high ground like this, especially in areas where the valley floor doesn't exist at all (the river taking up the entire valley). The highest of these locations is Khalatse, where Rohit Vohra located a Brokpa fort and postulated that it was their original capital.
The traditional trade route between Baltistan and Ladakh short-circuited this entire section of the Indus valley between Marol and Khalatse, using the Suru Valley via Kargil instead. The present Highway 1 does the same. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 13:21, 12 January 2023 (UTC)