This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bible, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
Bible on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BibleWikipedia:WikiProject BibleTemplate:WikiProject BibleBible articles
This article is within the scope of
WikiProject Religious texts, a project which is currently considered to be defunct.Religious textsWikipedia:WikiProject Religious textsTemplate:WikiProject Religious textsReligious texts articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish Women, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Jewish Women on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish WomenWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish WomenTemplate:WikiProject Jewish WomenJewish Women articles
This article is within the scope of the Women in Religion WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Women in religion. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.Women in ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject Women in ReligionTemplate:WikiProject Women in ReligionWomen in Religion articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ancient Near East, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Ancient Near East related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ancient Near EastWikipedia:WikiProject Ancient Near EastTemplate:WikiProject Ancient Near EastAncient Near East articles
The first question generally asked by the Indoctrinated when faced with a text is, "Is the text orthodox"? In the article's long-standing current form, this question overwhelms all other considerations, viz: "The Book of Judith is a deuterocanonical book, included in the Septuagint and in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christian Old Testament of the Bible, but excluded by Rabbinical Jews and Protestants." Now, for a presentation with any claim to neutrality, the article needs an introduction that tells what the Book of Judith actually is, before rushing enthusiastically to denigrate it by applying the categories that have been assigned to it so long after the fact. For Wikipedia, the text is first of all a text: POV assignments do also need to be covered, needless to say --
Wetman07:36, 5 August 2007 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure that this is entirely justified. The article does not "seek to denigrate" the text. It simply states what it is. When looking at other articles on books of the Bible, every article begins with "such and such is a book of the Bible..." or the like. Neither they nor Judith really exist as independent or isolated "texts", but as part of established canons. In this case, this is especially important, as there are debates over which canons specifically it belongs in. It doesn't seem that it would make any sense to say "Judith is a story/book/text written in Aramaic from the second century BC, which...". I think it'd be a pretty awkward composition to leave out the canons even from just the first sentence.
Korossyl20:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)reply
Korossyl doesn't seem to see that the reader is required to approach the text from within the POV that has categorized it, long after the fact, as "deuterocanonical". This is quite like hastening to announce that Hamlet is a "class A must-read" before saying what Hamlet is. As Korossyl points out, the problem is systemic, and not confined to this one article. --
Wetman10:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)reply
I don't believe so; I think a more apt comparison would be to begin with "Hamlet is one of the plays of William Shakespeare, written in...". Stating that a book is from the Bible, or from the dueterocanon, or whatever, simply tells what collection of ancient manuscripts it is a part of. To not include that would be to deprive the article of much-needed context.
Korossyl14:37, 8 August 2007 (UTC)reply
Not really, and in fact the article is extremely vague on what the book actually is. Is it in fact "written in Aramaic from the second century BC.." - I don't think the article says so. The canonical status can be left to a 2nd para or section.
Johnbod02:34, 6 September 2007 (UTC)reply
Presumably because the central theme of the book is that Judith cut off Holophernes' head in an "extrajudicial killing"; allowing that this was an historical act, a case could be made for this categorisation. --
Rogerb67 (
talk)
13:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)reply
Why is the name included with an Arabic translation?
Like, for example, why is it in Arabic? Before being in Arabic,it should definitely be in Greek because the translations of the bible were in Greek way before Arabic. The Arabic portion should be deleted!!!! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
35.9.92.28 (
talk)
18:41, 17 February 2009 (UTC)reply
All of the "In the bible" section is original research that needs sources and cleaning up to meet encyclopedic quality. And the "artistic renditions" are also in need of 3rd party sourcing /analysis. Hence the tag.--
The Red Pen of Doom02:23, 14 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Problems with the historicity
Perhaps more of the problems with the historicity of the Book of Judith should be related. When I first read it I perceived it as a "bunch of lies" typical for a very badly written novel. The reason was of course that a name such as 'Holofernes' is very clearly not Assyrian, but something that have been mangled through the Greek language from an unknown source. The second was that the geography of the story is contrafactual, and that there is no such city as 'Baityloua', there is no such phonemes as 'y' nor 'ou' in Arameic nor in Hebrew.
Rursus dixit. (
mbork3!)
20:34, 31 October 2010 (UTC)reply
I agree it would be good to insert a historicity section - I also query its being categorised under "women's history" as it probably didn't happen. The city's name in Hebrew is "Bethulia", which is a perfectly acceptable Hebrew word but not a real historical place.
Kilburn London (
talk)
08:40, 3 July 2012 (UTC)reply
None of this appears to be about improving the article. Please bear in mind
WP:NOTFORUM and focus your comments on improving the article in some concrete way. Thanks.
Jytdog (
talk)
16:46, 13 April 2016 (UTC)reply
Anyway
Wiki editors are just not paying attention here
"Anyway, the book is quoted by Pope Clement I (1 Clement ch. 55) side-by-side with the canonical Book of Esther, and both are clearly assigned the same degree of historicity and canonicity. "
I added a quote from Hebbel's diaries about his Judith. The translation is mine and can probably be improved, I have put the German original into a footnote. Maybe an English native speaker can take a look at it.—
Austriacus (
talk)
18:03, 26 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Dating the composition
Although the article says that this work was "likely written by a Jew during the Second Temple period," that is a pretty big range, from 530 B. C. E.–70 C. E. Do researchers have a more-specific general range than this, or is this the best up with which they can come?
allixpeeke (
talk)
08:42, 3 March 2017 (UTC)reply
Cheese
The article refers to the Jewish tradition of eating dairy products on
Hanukkah. I do not have the two references given, but surely this is a confusion with
Shavuot? It is traditional to eat fried foods on Hanukkah.
Pelarmian (
talk)
09:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Canonicity in Ethiopian Judaism
From the article: "[T]here is no evidence that the Book of Judith was ever considered authoritative or a candidate for canonicity by any Jewish group." According to
Beta Israel the Book of Judith is part of the Ge'ez language canon for Ethiopian Jews. (Confusingly, the Beta Israel article lists Judith as one of the deuterocanonical books that is part of the canon; I think this means to say, canonical in Beta Israel, but deuterocanonical in some outside traditions.) I think this article should mention canonicity to Beta Israel, but I’m not sure how the "any Jewish group" statement should be formed up. Any ideas? —
Amble (
talk)
23:28, 18 November 2019 (UTC)reply
All Bible is 90% fictional
From the article: "The surviving Greek manuscripts contain several historical anachronisms, which is why some scholars now consider the book non-historical: a parable, a theological novel, or perhaps the first historical novel.""
Citing the '1913 Catholic Encyclopaedia' is like saying "flat-Earthers believe the moon-landing was on a dinner-plate in the sky". The whole Bible is a parable. It is even impossible to prove that Jesus actually existed - just a bunch of parables thrown together from ancient stories and sayings. So why does this outdated scholarly book, the '1913 Catholic Encyclopaedia,' even get a mention. The Book of Judith is the same as any other book in the Bible, which are all just mish-mash of ancient stories, told by professional story tellers at feast and celebrations, and around the campfires at night along the ancient trade routes from East to West, and West to East over millennia.
The part I quoted should be taken out, it is just part of a patriarchal slant on ancient literature. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
73.38.104.150 (
talk)
14:59, 9 May 2021 (UTC)reply