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In 1467 at Baia Mathias Corvinus was defeated by Stephen the Great king of Moldavia.So it is not the only undefeated army in Europe since Alexander.Besides there are many other examples of undefeated standard armies in that period.Please delete this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.114.58.113 ( talk) 22:30, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
[potentially offensive, non-helpful comment removed here. Killiondude ( talk) 07:02, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Vallachia Moldavia (modern Romanian) countries were vassals of Hungarian and Polish Kings, latter the turkish Ottoman Empire.
1. "It is recognized as the first standing continental European fighting force not under conscription and with regular pay since the Roman Empire".
Not quite. The French Compagnies d'Ordonnace appeared during Charles the VIIth military reforms in the 1440's, almost two decades before the Black Army. Also, they were followed quickly by the Burgundian ones. Especially the Burgundian army of Charles the Bold shows the mixed unit tactics employed by the Black Army, the French Compagnies being more of a cavalry force. They are most likely results of a convergent evolution. Also, there have been several similar forces before this - Janissaries, for example, also professional soldiers ("They wore uniforms and were paid in cash as regular soldiers"). So, the Black Army wasn't such a novelty.
2. "and reputed to be the first military body to be undefeated in the field (under one ruler) since Alexander the Great in European combat history."
As posted above, Mathias Corvinus did engage in a pitched battle with the Moldavians at the Battle of Baia in 1467. And this strikes at the supposed invincibility of the Black Army, because, while some sources claim to have been a Hungarian victory (while a pyrrhic one), others clame to have been a Moldavian victory. On the other hand, even if it was a Hungarian defeat, the Black Army might have not been envolved. A large part of the Hungarian army at that battle was comprised of forces from the voivodate of Transylvania, with some royal banderies. Those royal banderies MIGHT, or MIGHT NOT have been the Black Army. Also, in the article about the battle of Baia, it states that "thereafter he (Corvinus) fined the Transylvanians a sum of 400,000 florins, which they had to pay immediately, in gold. With this money he raised an army of foreign mercenaries, which would prove more loyal to him." It cites as a source the Historiae Polonicae. Wouldn't this be the actual birth of the Black Army? Some help in clearing this would be appreciated.
For these reasons, I have changed the article to a more neutral tone, by removing these lines. Flavius T ( talk) 00:08, 22 October 2009 (UTC)Flavius T
There wasn't the whole black army at Vilemov, there was was a little part of the black army. Finally, the Bohemians were defeated in the Bohemian-Hungarian war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stubes99 ( talk • contribs) 16:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
In the 15th century, the Compagnie d'ordonnance was rather a larger guard than a real army. It contained 500 men only(!!!) It had laughable size! Was it real force in large battles? No!
The ground of comparison could be based only on real numbers. Arguing whether they were standing armies or not is totally irrelevant since they could face each other at the same age not to mention that some of them were also paid standing armies (think of the bosnian cavalry of Milan and Venice also prefered hiring soldiers hence of its population, and the table references them as constant garrison). Taking out the armies of England and France just because they were not standing armies is also a lame step (considering that each army of Hundred Years' War shall qualify for standing army criteria). Also I decided to change the name for the table to largest armies per its source. Lajbi Holla @ me 10:34, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Again, the total number of French and English feudal non-standing armies were fewer than medieval Hungarian armies. You didn't count forexample the total number of Feudal levy of Hungary. Hungary had the highest ratio of nobles and militant population. These armies were not contemporary. That create a false aspect —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
78.92.106.176 (
talk)
14:23, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Please stop removing the free images that were about to illustrate the actions and persons in general. It is obvious that every picture before the invention of photography is fictional and are based on the fantasy of the painter. But just because of this reasoning we can not cut them out and call them uncreditable (as we surely can not do so in every article concerned). Lajbi Holla @ me 15:49, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
I won't get into the details of the self-evident differences of the two. Comparing possible (!) numbers of army manpower is way too manipulative so it is inappropriate to include them in a table which incorporates real (recorded in written reports) military numbers, that happened to be gathered in the past. Their references are placed at the bottom of the table, the reliability of those are certainly beyond doubt. In the text the speculative numbers describing the army size are to represent a possible maximum and nothing else (I would also note that according to historians they are out of the boundaries generally regarded as Black Army). To prove that I'd like to insert a short preview exempt of the reference in the article here as a "quote" (no direct usage is allowed on the main page!) Lajbi Holla @ me 16:54, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
“ | [...]the following table giving detail of Matthias' as it stood 1475/9, taken from the report of another Venetian, Sebastiano Baduario
Auxiliary forces
Of these, the first two elements are undoubtedly the 'Black Army' and the banderia respectively. Despite the fact that even on their own they total 30.000 men most chronicles imply that Hungarian armies of this date were relatively small, on the whole numbering only between 10,000-20,000 men. |
” |
— Ian Heath, "Hungary". Armies of the Middle Ages, Volume 2. Cambridge, England (1984): Wargames research Group. pp. 58-62. ISBN B001B3PZTG. |
Foreign author with very low rank in scholarly/academic hierarchy. He doesn't know more about Hungary than a secondary school boy. He confused the western feudal levy (supported by local english/french peasant-pedigree elements) armies with a professional standing mercenary army. The anarchical kingdom of Hungary also could raise 60,000 men strong levy in 1521. Look the Battle of Mohács article.
Holy Roman Emperors and French kings had smaller real (mercenary) armies in the major conflits of the early 16th century.
Read these main articles and the battles of HR. Empire and France: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Wars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_War_of_1521 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_campaign_of_1524 And read the detailed battle articles —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.224.111.254 ( talk) 10:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
And don't forget! They were only ad-hoc mercenary armies. They weren't standing armies. These little mercenary armies often caused financial crisis for France and the Habsburgs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.224.111.254 ( talk) 10:14, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/thou/thou22.htm This book and it's references based on the sources of MTA (Hungarian Academy of Sciences) Scholars. The arquebus became operational weapon only in Hungary Holy Roman Empire N.Italian states and Hispanian States. 1/5 arquebus ratio was only true in the 1460's (when the Matthias' letter was writen) it could reach the 1/4 ratio in 1490. It was the highest ratio of usage of arquebuses at the time. (One of the fatal mistake of your source: It mentions switzerlanders who hated and despised all ranged weapons. The credibility of your source became questionalble (Your source was written (at time) by a young boy without any higher scholarly rank) Please don't delete the sources with better reputation and higher University degrees (like professors). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.183.185.181 ( talk) 06:21, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Please do not
attack other editors. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please
stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you.
periodical report
the link in question
I reviewed the article and made the (what I see as) proper copy-edits. They are far from perfect, however, so I urge a second review. Overall, the article is well-structured and probably ready for GA-review.-- Gaius Claudius Nero ( talk) 21:43, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
I have to address some criticism at this point. Besides that most of the edits should be moved to Matthias Corvinus they are also questionable and have serious problems:
“ | Its cosmopolitan makeup and elite nature were instrumental in defining an approximation towards a post-medieval quasi- Renaissance enlightened absolutism, enabling the Hungarian Kingdom to flourish to a territorial, military, civic, economic and humanist cultural Golden Age unrivaled in Hungarian history. Hungary's continental military on land, in many ways, was the bellwether professional fighting force in a " Post-Roman Europe | ” |
“ | The Black Army was also an indispensable royal vehicle by which great baronial excesses and abuses were curbed in light of King Matthias' aspiring centralization of power and keen spirit of justice. On his ill-timed death in 1490 in which the whole of Europe mourned his loss, an epitaph was placed over the royal vault, which he himself was the author | ” |
“ | Black Army units achieved an international noted reputation for being virtually unbeatable in the field. Incomparable virtues of esprit de corps, discipline, preparedness and well-honed skill made them victorious in 43 of 52 overall engagements throughout the span of their service. Three major full spectrum actions featured prominently among them: the celebrated Battle of Breadfield, where an immense invading 20,000 Ottoman host was annihilated in Transylvania 1479 in the bloodiest conflict on record, the defensive siege-battle of Breslau in 1474, where Matthias meticulously engineered the defeat of a 80,000 strong Polish-Czech coalition merely with 10,000 soldiers under his command in a brilliant tactical coup, and the successful siege and taking of the imperial capital Vienna in 1485. | ” |
“ | Thus reinforced, him ambitions, imbued with grand European projects, were given full expression. King Matthias Corvinus' bellicose
Realpolitik
geo-political and domestic
reformist agendas were highly successful that added luster to an otherwise remarkable reign as Hungary's greatest and most beloved monarch that still fires literary imaginations into the 21st century. Under his able charismatic political and military prowess, vast imperial provinces and tracts of the
Holy Roman Empire were subsumed into the Hungarian Kingdom:
Moravia,
Silesia,
Upper Lusatia and
Lower Lusatia to the north-west. King Matthias also carried his victorious arms deeply into
Habsburg
Austrian crown domains, subduing
Styria,
Carinthia and
Carniola to the immediate west. The capital of the empire,
Vienna, itself was invested in 1485 and capitulated after an extended siege. The fame and renown of the Black Army extended through Europe as a precursor to
Oliver Cromwell's
New Model Army, its power crescendoed to 1490 when Matthias' ephemeral Hungarian empire achieved its greatest zenith in Central and Eastern Europe.
During this time, the real power of universal Ottoman aggrandizement and zeal aimed at the central European heartland reached a high pitch in the Balkans posed to overwhelm all Christendom; prodigious war efforts were made by the Turks to knock Hungary out of contention as a great power that stood as the gateway and bastion of the West. The overpowering Ottoman juggernaut seemed unstoppable led by the élan of their crack jannissary corps. In the same attacking vein and vision of his crusading generalissimo father with strategic situational awareness, King Matthias made mighty intrusions into Turkish controlled regions and succeeded in fortifying a frontier zone with the Ottoman Empire. Bosnia was partially recovered, and the troops of the Black Army were particularly able to best Turkish forces in combat by their propensity to outlast. The Black Army was colloquially styled the sword and shield of Christian Europe and horizontally met the Turkish peril with ferocious ardor that for a 32-year interlude stemmed grand Muslim invasions from the south |
” |
And as for the pictures : as I followed the events the museum photo gets repeatedly deleted for obvious copyright violation (Wikicommons lists it as being stolen from http://kultura.hu/main.php?folderID=1&articleID=267484&ctag=articlelist&iid=1). DO NOT use copyvio images and do not reload them from time to time.
All said and done I presume you haven't understood the guidelines of Wikipedia whereas the neutrality is the main goal. It's not about designing colorful, novel-like storytelling articles nor it is a self-advertisment (where self refers to one's nationality this time). Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 14:11, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
I understand why some of my edits were reverted due to peacock term usage which I will try to avoid, the rest of the material I provided were absolutely factual that anybody with a 3rd grade Hungarian education knows as concrete history from textbooks. I've extensively read Hungarian history and in fact have books on the Hunyadi age, one is a 2500page 5 volume antique set from the 19th century that that I have. I have another 2000 page 3 set volume dealing strictly with Matthias Corvinus from the 1950s.
For one the quote that I wrote:
“ | Its cosmopolitan makeup and elite nature were instrumental in defining an approximation towards a post-medieval quasi- Renaissance enlightened absolutism, enabling the Hungarian Kingdom to flourish to a territorial, military, civic, economic and humanist cultural Golden Age unrivaled in Hungarian history. Hungary's continental military on land, in many ways, was the bellwether professional fighting force in a " Post-Roman Europe | ” |
... is absolute correct.
The Black Army was very cosmopolitan (multi-national diverse), and Cornivus did in fact usher in a Golden Age in Hungarian history unknown before -- this everybody knows from basic Hungarian 2nd grade. His kept the baronial influence in check and centralizing his power and him endeavoring to create the first major humanist-inspired Renaissance state north of the Alphs, is fact. The Black Army was one of the vehicles for this. The Black Army was absolutely the bellwether (originating leader) of the first major bona fide standing army after the Roman Empire in Christian Europe, this is also fact. Bellwether is the appropriate term. It is also fact that Cornivus was a very enlightened quasi-absolute monarch (with emphasis on centralization) in a post-medieval period in Hungary with the ebullience of Renaissance thinking and habits in high circles. This means he was the forerunner of enlightened absolutism which is also a fact.
As was as the battles lost and won, the reader has to have some basic understandg of the performance of the Black Army. That is why you included the list of "recorded battles", unremarked upon battles were too small in scale and count as innummerable skirmishes.
The version that you reverted back after my contributions have no mention of the notable campaigns of the Army, that I tried to encapsulate in the opening header. I inserted the conquests, offensive and defensive schemes of Corvinus' policy towards the Czechs, Habsurgs and Turks, you removed them wholly out. I also included the three notable encounters of the Army and plan to put them into a Campaigns section.
I plan to revise the the opening stanza of the Black Army by putting in emphasis on the centralizing Renaissance realpolitic mindset of Corvinus to explain the rise and need of the Black Army in the first place. Corvinus' policies and personality must be taken into account in the opening paragraphs to give the reader insight initial creation of the Armyy. Again you removed the summary and analysis of Corvinus' proactive defensive and offensive mindset from the opening chapters.
In short, you reverting back the article has taken gist out of what I wanted to convey as the original creator of this article. Complete removal of my additions that is drawn from extensive study of the Hunyadi age renders this article incomplete. In keeping with the standards of Wikipedia, peacock terms were the only issue in my additions. I am an expert in the Hunyadi age and desire nothing but the full expression of historical truth, facts and analysis that went into the creation of the Army as imaged by the volition of Corvinus himself. We HAVE to built out a contextual historical sketch around the time of Black Army for the reader to understand the military conditions that existed. Again, you removed that.
BTW, please link this article to the Hungary Wikipedia Project as a Class-A article, thank you for your hard work and attention. OliverTwist88 talk
This article seems interesting. For military historians its important to include the notable campaigns of these forces into the article. The article over-emphasizes the evolution and technical makeup of the army, its battles and campaigns are not listed. Please include a chapter on its prominent role in military history (battles, sieges, expeditions, etc.) That should full round out the article's comprehensive nature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.25.218.135 ( talk) 04:42, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
A lot of the article reads as if it has been translated into English, that is, it is clunky and non-idiomatic. The peacock terms – which are really a relic of an older tradition of historiography – are a part of this, but they are not the only problem. The syntax is frequently garbled and difficult to follow. Small example, from the illustration text – is it supposed to be black on red, or white on red? Either interpretation could be defended on the basis of what is written, but, logically, they can't both be true. Theonemacduff ( talk) 21:01, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Forexample Black army was only a personal private army of king Matthias, the tablet not represented the number of levy / feudal units in Hungary which were far larger than the standing mecenary army, therefore it not represents the military strength and number of total soldiers of the Hungarian kingdom as a whole. -- 84.2.197.184 ( talk) 09:56, 7 November 2011 (UTC) Even the weakest king of Hungary ( Louis II of Hungary) mobilised 60,000 men strong levy army in 1521 (the fall of Belgrad)
This discussion has no sense furthermore that is coming from a banned partisan user User:Stubes99 -84.2.x.x therefore this whole section should be deleted and no consensus needed. Adrian ( talk) 09:55, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
the equipment section could be applied to any article on medieval weaponry. 71.194.44.209 ( talk) 05:34, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
I think user 84.0.193.202's comment does make sense. We can not resemble correctly a professional mercenary army with temporary recruited troops by size. The chart is well sourced but misleading. Fakirbakir ( talk) 21:13, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
I have just noticed there is an older section here about the same issue. Fakirbakir ( talk) 21:43, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Yes, the tablet is misleading & unlogical and it compares apples and oranges. It is not based on a single source, it based on arbitrarily selected various sources. Because a user (Lajbi) spitefully created a missceading tablet with sources, it doesn't mean that the tablet is saint and inviolable by the wiki rules. Perhabs the help of wiki admins are needed to regulate that unlogical misleading and tablet together its fanatic missceading supporter (Lajbi) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.183.164.46 ( talk) 06:25, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
Again, according to your (false) logic, Louis II of Hungary and count John Hunyadi were stronger in military point of view than king Matthias, because they set up large 60,0000 strong ad-hoc feudal armies. Without the classification of types of armies, it mislead the readers. The edits of user:Lajbi in Hungarian topics are worse than the edits of romanian slovak serbian banned chauvinists. He try to unfold his (often false misleading and lunatic) edits as "unbiased" and "open-minded", but the same (or worse) anti-hungarian hatred dominated his deeds as the banned chauvinist little-entente editors. I suggest to ask a wiki admin to delete his/her account. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.183.164.46 ( talk) 14:10, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
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