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Sources are not sited properly... Thelorien 18:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
My actual content, you know real info about Bitlis as opposed to ethnic proaganda was totally undone by someone without any comment. Actually, there was no need for a comment! Murat ( talk) 03:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I suppose I will have to persist and defend this little patch of wiki from determined vandalism. My factual updates, links, pictures and other valuable contributions are constantly undone without any discussion or explanation. Some people here think they own this town and this page. Before making changes and edits, first discuss, explain and get some consensus. That is how it is done.-- Murat ( talk) 20:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
There is no "Jevdet Bey Paşa", his real and proper name is "Governor Cevdet Paşa".-- Murat ( talk) 01:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
One does not pick and choose references to bolster one's POV. Out of hundreds of references, I have chosen ones that are easiest to verify. Not one, but all were removed without any reason. Stop harassing references, make an argument, express what facts are specifically disputed. No amount of vandalism here can change or re-frame historical facts. Given how you and your partisans have turned these pages into ethnic and nationalistic propaganda depositories, full of hate and distortions, maybe it is too much to expect a little respect for neutral facts. I will keep trying.-- Murat ( talk) 18:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
In spite of all good faith efforts to inject a little reality in these pages, wanton removal or any reference that does not meet a certain POV continues. This is the page to discuss it before things removed or erased. That is the wiki policy.-- Murat ( talk) 21:27, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
What lies?-- Murat ( talk) 21:56, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
There was major massacre in Bitlis committed against Muslim population by the Armenian irregulars and the Russians when they "briefly" held the town during WWI. The US observers, in their report to the US Congress (a reference repeatedly removed from here) noted that in their tour of the region right after the war, they encountered ZERO Muslims in Bitlis. The reference and paragraph stays.-- Murat ( talk) 19:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Discuss before editing out major sections and deleting references and sources. What is dubious about a reference? Does that mean not to one's liking? More than half the article has grown into coverage of the WWI events. That belongs to a different article. Maybe that new article can be titled "self-defensive invasion of Bitlis and self-defensive massacre of the Turks there by Armenians"! Just a suggestion!-- Murat ( talk) 20:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
"The US observers, in their report to the US Congress noted that in their tour of the region right after the war, they encountered ZERO Muslims in Bitlis" - that has to be just about the most unbelievable statement I've read on Wikipedia this week! Give us the full quote - and the source you read it in. Regarding your wish to see material moved to a different article - that activity has a name, it's called a POV fork. WW1 was an important period in the history of Bitlis. If you think the size of that part of the entry is too big compared to the rest, then add more material to the rest, and make it genuine material. Meowy 14:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Oh, yes, this is whatg happens when you drink from your own bath water. There are a few things you will learn here. It is not possible of course to make the article original when any edit, unless it contains the term "Armenian massacre", is savagely removed by you and your mob. I am not one to give up though. Yes, I will expand on the reference more. They are not easy to find though, since over the years, most material not supporting Armenian mythology have been sytematically destroyed from the world archives. I know of specific cases in USA. I personally do not need references or books to learn these facts of course. My granfather's family tree was cut down by the Armenians in Bitlis. I do not mean forced evacuations or marches etc., I mean complete anhiliation. Van and Bitlis are where there were large scale massacres of local Muslims, mostly women, children, old and invalid by Armenians. See if you can find any references on these pages. No amount of burying your head in the sand will change this fact.-- Murat ( talk) 01:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
1-Do not remove references simply because you do not like them. What is considered a reference is clearly defined by wiki. 2- Some of the details of "battle for Bitlis" in WWI seem out of proportion for an article only 20 lines or so long. Make it a separate entry if you feel up to it and I will contribute. 3- If we are going to count the dead, then surely one needs to mention the large scale massacre of Turks by Armenians there. Van and Bitlis were the two cities where Armenians pretty much erased the local Muslim populations. Will be more then happy to detail it, but it seems to me out of proportion for a small article. 4- Architecture was a bit overdone but I collected the paragraphs and tidied up a bit. At least pretend to keep a semblance of neutrality and objectivity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hudavendigar ( talk • contribs) 05:25, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Every reference provided by myself can be found and traced including NYT ones, which is on line and available and where I found it. Your personal attacks are tiresome and unwarranted and against the rules. I repeat, do not remove references simply because you do not like them. Get some concesus before editing in propaganda. I have no clue who Bedlisi is either. War and battle details belong to another article and way out of proportion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hudavendigar ( talk • contribs) 12:16, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Calling every source not supporting a certain preferred version of history, especially one about which there is considerable disagreement on, is not very helpful to the cause, whatever it may be, and certainly does not make a good argument. Zaman, the English pages, is routinely cited in many major web news sites Yahoo) for example. Niles and Sutherland report is real and widley cited but probably not in the sources you gentlemen "prefer". It certainly contains exaggerations as far as I can tell, but so do many reports everyone else references, but more importantly, there is the general content and conclusion which is hard to misinterperet. They made some crude and quick observations and not very familiar with the area I am sure, and there were very few Armenians left there at the time to subvert the reports anyway as it was done before. Just to put the report in perspective, keep in mind that USA and American public was extremely anti-Turkish at the time, missionaries there fed the barbarian Muslim Turks killing poor defenseless Christians stories incessantly. Even the number of bodies found in that Zaman article seems to be an exaggeration to me, I doubt one could find 20K people of any kind in one area at the time. Still, such graves are discovered (I can provide more detail) more than a few times and almost always found to be full of Muslim victims.-- Murat ( talk) 01:21, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Inistance by some on pov edits disrupts the flow of the article obviously, but that is what happens when there is no good faith. All references are verifiable, including the NYT article. Do not remove sections and references, it is aginst wiki rules. What you have called allegations are facts unfortunately, just read the references, more details of the Armenian atrocities, names of vitims etc., are in a link I had provided earlier but removed from here like many other contributions I had made.-- Murat ( talk) 03:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I am looking at the pdf of both articles as I write this. Your inabilty to reach some sources is not a concern for me. I do not have immediate acces to a majority of the references either. NYT and Zaman are as public as it gets. For your information, mass graves are not a rare occurance in that region. Occasionally they are found to be from Roman times, but mostly they are found to contain WWI victims, and almost always Muslims, which are easy to recognize from their clothing etc.. One can of course say the same thing about many pictures of dead people Armenian propagandists like to display: who knows if they are Muslims or not? I can lead you to other references and recent pictures, and I can place some disturbig pictures here also, but frankly I have feeling they will all be objectionable and I do not see the point of such pictures on these pages anyway. It seems to aim for hatred rather than establishing a fact.-- Murat ( talk) 04:09, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Parishan is using the March 6 dispach by manipulating it. The dispatch was to the Morning Post, where it says the Russians punished the Turks (note, the third army as reported in the dispatch itself) for what they did to the Armenians. The original dispatch does not contain anything about Armenians having engaged at that date. (Parishan has some explainations to do). This is what the dispatch actually says: Terrible slaughter followed the capture of the Turkish positions at Bitlis. The Russian troops had witnessed at Van, Mush, and many other places, an appalling sight, the massacre: namely, by Turkish fanatics of tens of thousands of Armenian Christian men, women, and children. It was unlikely after such deeds that any quarter should be given. This colossal killing completed the destruction of the Turkish third army. Relevent note to the end of the dispatch, as the note refers to the Turkish third army, which one of his commenders (Vehib) himself punished participants of the Armenian massacres by his own initiative and against above order by slaughtering them.
Parishan is using the untrustworthy website tallarmeniantale, see this reference is from there March 6, and see by which reference it was followed by McCarthy's reference to Niles and Sutherland. It is unlikelly that this order of the references was an accident because Niles and Sutherland report wasn't even specifically about Bitlis. Parishan is readding the thing by claiming that reference is being removed. Under this guise about any worthless, irrelevent and plainly manipulated stuff could be added to the untrusthworthy so-called encyclopedia.
Problem being that Niles and Sutherland report is not considered as trusthworthy by any credible historian (and no McCarthy is not considered as credible). A review of the list of houses left provided by their reports before and after expose the report for what it was, rubbish. The report claims that in the city of Van from the 3,400 Muslim houses only 3 were left (they claim 1,170 Armenian houses were left). The claim that no Muslim houses were left in the Bitlis city, nothing of the 6,500 houses. (while they claim that out of the 1,500 Armenian houses 1,000 remained, while the highest proportion of mortality was recorded nowhere else than Bitlis). In the villages of Van, only 350 Muslim houses being left. And guess what, the Armenians even managed from the report to increase the number of their houses there, fantastic, etc.
Wait, this is not the most interesting part of this, the report also claims that because of some imaginary Armenian army the Ottoman Empire is ruined, and because of this fictif army, only ¼ of the former population and 1/8 of the buildings are remaining (this almighty Armenian army could not even secure a tiny region in Eastern Anatolia). This was a copy of the claimed levelled by the Turkish delegation after the war. Niles and Sutherland were sent there to study the situation of the Armenians in the Eastern Ottoman to report the relief they will be needing. The Turkish autorities found their ways by switching the role of the victims and agressors to get every penny out of this by claiming Armenians were in a good situation. Niles and Sutherland were in the entire process escorted by the nationalists. No wonder the report recieved no consideration at the Senate. Useless to say how the current politic of the time with Bristol's shadow, confirming the awaited Chestler concession was more than welcomed.
And the report by Zaman? I think it won't be wrong to say that we can't expect Parishan to have added this in good faith. The only reported mass burrials ever reported for Bitlis, were those for exemple of the massacre of 15,000 Armenian there in June from the accounts of the German missionaries as well as officials from Italy, Vatican as well as Greece. In fact, when the Russians had Bitlis under control they took pictures of mass graves from there. Several recorded butchers were from there including the Vali, Mustafa Abdul Halik who was interned by the British for this. The last reference doesn't even need to be answered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.72.219.234 ( talk) 18:31, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Please do not remove references and referenced paragraphs. No matter what your bias may be. Not before all here are persuaded-- Murat ( talk) 03:58, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Hudavendigar, as you can see from above discussion, you have been proven wrong. Be nice and reach a consensus before making anymore reverts. VartanM ( talk) 03:35, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
We must be looking at different pages. I see above that the references I had provided were real and factual and were not a figment of imagination as so rudely claimed by some. An apology would have been too much to expect of course.
Most importantly, while splitting the references, what is lost in the dust is the fact that Muslim population of Bitlis (also Erzurum, Mus and Van) has suffered tremendously in the hands Armenian and Russian invaders. In many paragraphs of discussion above, no one seems to actually deny this fact or contradict it. So one wonders what the argument is about. Obviously a concensus has not been reached. No one is convinced and I strongly urge not vandalizing properly referenced statements.-- Murat ( talk) 07:26, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
The references are real, the events are real. That is the conclusion of the long-winded discussion above. I am not sure what the problem is.
Lets keep this simple. There is a question as to what happened to the Muslim inhabitants of this major Ottoman city once it was run over by Armenian insurgents and then Russians. You folks above can start cooperating by trying to answer this simple question. It is as if no one other than Armeians lived in this city! I would like to see an iota of good faith. You can not just revert and delete without mentioning the answer to the above question, in at least one single sentence in the whole article. -- Murat ( talk) 03:31, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
I added some material describing the old houses as old Armenian Houses, per the architectural style, and inhabitants in early 20th century, why was it deleted?
Also, I am wondering, do the western sources discriminate between the Zaza, Turks, Kurds, when talking about "Turks killing the Armenians". Especially, I have the distinct impression that the roles Kurds played w.r.t. Armenians in Bitlis is often understated, considering the city of Bitlis itself has such little Turkish population. What do you think?
Denizkural ( talk) 07:08, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Can you please show the link to New York times for where you got the paragraph? Because I couldn't find it, we need accurate references to do things. -- HyeTashnak ( talk) 13:19, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Of course we do need accurate references, just as importantly, we need the facts be not burried. That is why there is a reference. It means nothing though if it is vandalized and unilaterally removed. I hope you show the same sensitivity for truly POV entries here.-- Murat ( talk) 22:31, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
The majority of editors disagree with the context you have added please refrain from adding unsourced or unaccepted information to articles. We add facts that are verified or that are agreed in the scholarly world. -- Namsos ( talk) 02:53, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
This article, like many others, have been turned into a an Armenian propaganda piece. It is hard for a casual reader to realize that this is actually Turkish city, with a thousand year Seljuk-Ottoman-Turkish history. Mostly Armenian history and heritage has been included and all attempts to balance it have been thwarted by POV editors. Various discussions above attest to this. In addition, the tag idenfying the disputed nature of the article have been blatantly removed, though a statement that clearly forbids such removal without a resolution is part of the tag removed.-- Murat ( talk) 02:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Do you, with a straight face, claim that there is no dispute and concern regarding the objectivity of this article? The above sections alone prove that there is a problem. Why claim otherwise and hide behind technicalities?-- Murat ( talk) 03:51, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Where to begin:
"At the end of the 11th century, with the collapse of Byzantine power after the Battle of Malazgirt, Bitlis fell under the control of Togan Arslan, a subject of the "Shah Arman" dynasty based in Ahlat. Bitlis was a Kurdish emirate from the 13th to the 19th century. It was subordinate to the succession of larger powers ruling the Van region but always maintained a measure of independence This Kurdish dynasty lasted until 1849"...
Childishly hidden in this description is the fact that Bitlis was conquered by Seljuk Turks about 1000 years ago, and has been a Turkish/Ottoman city/province since then. It was not an independent Kurdish Emirate, not a place "larger powers" ruled, not an independent Armenian enclave, etc... neither in the intro nor the following section there is any mention of five centuries of Ottoman rule. Most of my edits elaborating on this have been removed.
"One third of the population of Bitlis was ethnic Armenian prior to the Armenian Genocide. In 1915, Turks and Kurds, led by Jevdet Bey Pasha, massacred some 15,000 Armenians in Bitlis.[4]"
There is no real back up for the population assertion, but that is a minor issue. "prior to Armenian Genocide" should have been at least prefaced with "alleged", as this definition is hotly debated and argued by many including historians. There is no evidence to back up the claim that Jevdet Pasa Bey (wrong name and spelling, but side issue) "massacred" Armenians. A word that is abused and thrown around excessiveley for dramatic effect. He was a governor put in charge of quelling a bloody and armed rebellion by Armenians. No mention of armed Armenian actions.
This was taking place in the middle of a WWI, when Ottomans were fighting Great Powers at multiple fronts. Armenian rebellions and overt collaboration with the enemy cost the Turks dearly. None of this is in the article. There is no mention of that, any attempts I had made to balance it has been attacked by this gang immediately.
Bitlis was a site of major Armenian revolt and also killing of pretty much all of the city's Muslims during their armed rebellions and collaborations with invading Russians. References to this effect have been removed by the pov editors on sight as the history shows.
Once the validity of the argument over the objectivity of the article is accepted by all, then we can try to balance it a little.-- Murat ( talk) 20:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Someone is under the impression that Sheref is the "modern" version of "Şeref". Şeref is and was how it was written 500 yrs ago, except in Arabic script (which does have a "Ş" I am told) rather than Latin alphabet. In either case, it was never spelled "Sheref" in any script at any time, except in bad translations.-- Murat ( talk) 03:31, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Nobody could have written the word "Şeref" before 1928, the date of the introduction of the modern Turkish alphabet. Both of the Şerefs mentioned in the article were not Turkish, and the first was not even a subject of the Ottoman empire. This is the English-language Wikipedia, just as we don't spell the names of Classical Greek generals using the modern Greek alphabet, we don't spell the names of historical persons who lived in what is now Turkey using the modern Turkish alphabet. Meowy 18:03, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
It is a mystery how people even come with these so-called historic names. Was there ever an official map with this made-up name(s)? Has anyone actuallyh called the place by this name? Any international documents? Not likley. It was an Ottoman, Selcuk, Roman and Greek city all through history. These forced namings seem to be driven solely by nationlaistic agendas and emotions. It is getting rather silly. I will not accept it. It is just one more point to create nationalistic quarrels around. Seems like some have taken this as a sport. If there are such ancient names that may be of any interest to public in general, any value at all, then it should be presented in the history section.-- Murat ( talk) 04:12, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Bitlis = Badlis : these two towns are one, there should be only one article, -- Hope&Act3! ( talk) 20:55, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree, the other article describes this article, and the references there are not adequate. -- Stultiwikia text me 22:08, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
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The records all being from 2010-forward suggest that the problem with Istanbul's climate normals is unfortunately also present here, so I'll look around to see how common this is. I don't know if the new normals are actually all that different here, as Bitlis is a rather small city. I haven't reverted them, but perhaps we should. Uness232 ( talk) 08:53, 3 May 2021 (UTC)