This article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
Arab world on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Arab worldWikipedia:WikiProject Arab worldTemplate:WikiProject Arab worldArab world articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lebanon, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Lebanon-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LebanonWikipedia:WikiProject LebanonTemplate:WikiProject LebanonLebanon articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iraq, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Iraq on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IraqWikipedia:WikiProject IraqTemplate:WikiProject IraqIraq articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jordan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Jordan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JordanWikipedia:WikiProject JordanTemplate:WikiProject JordanJordan articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic
Palestine region, the
Palestinian people and the
State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting
the project page, where you can add your name to the
list of members where you can contribute to the
discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
Kebab is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to improve and better organize information in articles related or pertaining to
Armenia and
Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the
project page for further information.ArmeniaWikipedia:WikiProject ArmeniaTemplate:WikiProject ArmeniaArmenian articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Food and drink, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
food and
drink related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Food and drinkWikipedia:WikiProject Food and drinkTemplate:WikiProject Food and drinkFood and drink articles
Delete unrelated trivia sections found in articles. Please review
WP:Trivia and
WP:Handling trivia to learn how to do this.
Add the {{WikiProject Food and drink}} project banner to food and drink related articles and content to help bring them to the attention of members. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects,
select here.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Egypt, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Egypt on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EgyptWikipedia:WikiProject EgyptTemplate:WikiProject EgyptEgypt articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of
India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iran, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to
Iran on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please
join the project where you can contribute to the
discussions and help with our
open tasks.IranWikipedia:WikiProject IranTemplate:WikiProject IranIran articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pakistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Pakistan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PakistanWikipedia:WikiProject PakistanTemplate:WikiProject PakistanPakistan articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Syria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Syria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SyriaWikipedia:WikiProject SyriaTemplate:WikiProject SyriaSyria articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Turkey, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Turkey and
related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TurkeyWikipedia:WikiProject TurkeyTemplate:WikiProject TurkeyTurkey articles
This article was selected as the article for improvement on 28 October 2013 for a period of one week.
Steam kebab was nominated for
deletion.
The discussion was closed on 04 February 2010 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were
merged into
Kebab. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see
its history; for its talk page, see
here.
No, they should not. According to Wikipedia's Manual of Style, both comma separators and narrow gap separators are acceptable optional styles.
The ISO style is possibly more suitable (though not required) in science or technical articles, but this is not one. It has the drawback that it doesn't work well with
screen readers. The comma style is still more commonly used, and likely less surprising to most Wikipedia readers. It is also used for example by Encyclopedia Britannica.
While it's possible to change an article from one optional style to another, if there is good reason to do so, generally talk page consensus should be sought first, so thanks for bringing it up here. However, at the moment I don't see any compelling reason to change the existing style.
I noticed you've asked the same thing in several other articles over the past couple of years. If you feel the current general practice should be changed, the best place to address it is on the talk page of
MOS:DIGITS, as was
suggested to you last time in September. I hope that helps answer your question. --
IamNotU (
talk)
02:47, 12 January 2020 (UTC)reply
Usage in English etc., second paragraph
Halbared, you've twice now removed "outside of North America" from the second paragraph. That leaves a statement that isn't accurate and doesn't reflect the sources or reality. In the UK, Ireland, Australia, etc., people usually call a sandwich/wrap with meat from a vertical rotisserie literally "a kebab", e.g. "I'd like a kebab please", or "we stopped for a kebab after the pub". This usage is essentially unknown in the US and Canada, where it was popularized mainly by Greek immigrants. There, the common name overwhelmingly is "a gyro", (sometimes "a donair" in Canada) not "a kebab". This is common knowledge and easily verified, I added a citation and there are many more. Please stop changing it to imply that in North America a common name for gyros/shawarma/doner is "a kebab".
The first source, "Language and Food", says:
Kabab/Kebab, most likely a word of Arabic derivation, is now ubiquitous, not only in the Middle East but worldwide, to be found on every high street in Western cities. The ‘default’ kebab is cubes of meat on a skewer, the shish kebab or shashlik of international cookery. [...discussion of its presence in West and South Asia...] The ubiquitous kebab of our time is döner, rotating vertical skewers of which are to be found in profusion in every city in the Middle East and Europe. Döner is a Turkish word indicating turning or rotation. In the Levant (and in Arab and Israeli dispensers inEurope)it is called shwarma...[1]
First, note that Zubaida does not say that the doner is more ubiquitous than the cubes of meat on a skewer type, which in a global context it certainly is not. In the first sentence, ubiquitous refers to all types of kebab. The shish kebab type had spread worldwide much earlier, measured in centuries; it's not until "our time" (i.e. since the 1970s) that the doner has also become ubiquitous. Secondly, the sentence describing doner as ubiquitous goes on to say "in every city in the Middle East and Europe" - i.e., outside of North America. He doesn't mention the situation there, nor gyros.
In the second source, Marks says:
Kebab denotes an array of Middle Eastern grilled or broiled meat dishes; in America, it typically refers to shish kebab, while in Europe it more commonly indicates doner kebab (shawarma)...[2]
That's a very clear statement. It also doesn't mention gyros, but that's the reason. It does support the idea that - outside of North America - these days arguably "a kebab" more often means a doner than a shish kebab. However, he refers to Europe in general, including e.g. Austria, so if we want to make a statement that In most English-speaking countries, as the paragraph begins, the sense of "a kebab" as doner is demonstrably more common than the sense as shish kebab, we would need a better source. I think it's not really worth the effort, and is not necessary to quantify which sense is more common, at least not in the lead; the current wording suffices. --
IamNotU (
talk)
13:32, 19 June 2020 (UTC)reply
I may have been misunderstanding the first sentence. I was reading the anglosphere as being North America (and US centric), whereas now it scans OK to me as both versions of the kebab are in the anglophere.
Halbared (
talk)
17:11, 19 June 2020 (UTC)reply
I fixed a grammar error on this page citing the region of origin. The previous sentence didn’t make as much sense so I fixed it so the reader can understand it more clearly.
Reinhearted (
talk)
20:33, 27 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Discussion about the article should take place here, so I've copied this comment by Reinhearted from my talk page: How can something be “originating in Middle Eastern cuisines” this is not a region or state but rather a culture of food. The proper pronunciation would be “that originated in the Middle East”. As described in the History section, the basic techniques of cooking meat on a stick or skewer originated in Africa at least half a million years ago and predates the existence of modern humans. So it's not really accurate to say that it originated in the Middle East. On the other hand, the particular styles and recipes of the broader range of dishes we now call kebabs, beyond simple meat-on-a-stick, mainly arose in Persian and, later, Ottoman cuisines. I don't see that there is any grammatical problem in describing something as originating in a certain culture rather than a region or state. It's been this way for about three years, and nobody has complained. It also allows us to link to
Middle Eastern cuisine, which is a more likely destination for readers of this article, who probably already know what the
Middle East is. --
IamNotU (
talk)
22:11, 27 December 2020 (UTC)reply
The article states that “Kebab is a style of meat with their origins in Middle Eastern Cuisines” clearly not referring to the the basic meat style that originated in Africa. That claim is misleading and irrelevant to say the least
Reinhearted (
talk)
19:56, 17 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Reinhearted, can you
indent your replies please? You've changed this again, but I still don't see a good justification for it. For the past several years, the lead sentence has been:
Kebabs are various cooked meat [[dish (food)|dishes]], with their origins in [[Middle Eastern cuisine]].
I don't really see how the proposed replacement improves it:
Kebabs are various cooked meat [[dish (food)|dishes]] that originated in the [[Middle Eastern cusine|Middle East]].
I prefer the existing version, as I explained above. I don't agree that there's a grammar error in it. Kebabs only originated in the Middle East in the sense of the name and specific recipes coming from a certain cuisine, i.e. Persian/Arab/Turkish medieval cookery. See the History section. Linking directly to the desired cuisine article is clearer to the reader, avoiding the problem described in
MOS:SUBMARINE. Do we need to go do
dispute resolution about this? --
IamNotU (
talk)
21:27, 17 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Kebabs are various cooked meat [[dish (food)|dishes]] in [[Middle Eastern cuisine]].
which Reinhearted has also reverted to their version. It seems Reinhearted is concerned that we define the geographical origin of kebabs, as a region or state, in the first sentence. I prefer the stable version. Yours is pretty good, I would just say that at least some kebabs, e.g. doner kebab and shish kebab, have broken out from Middle Eastern cuisine and really have become global, so that's why I like "origins in Middle Eastern cuisine". I'm not so attached to "origins", could maybe be "stemming from" or something, if it's really necessary to change it. --
IamNotU (
talk)
23:51, 17 January 2021 (UTC)reply
I'm fine with the stable version, so let's return to that for now. Reinhearted, you are of course free to argue for your preferred version here on the Talk page and see if you can change the consensus.
diff A tenth-century Baghdadi cookbook mentions kebab, but that does not place its origin in Baghdad at that time. The dish had already been in existence for millennia, if the Akrotiri firedogs are credible evidence.
The page history shows my edit summary removed, as well as the previous editor's ID. I don't see anything in the logs about admin oversight. What's going on there?
Just plain Bill (
talk)
12:23, 30 April 2022 (UTC)reply
First of all, “Middle East” is not a country and it is commonly acknowledged that baghdad is where the kebab was made and was then spread to other areas of the middle east. Turkey is where doner kebab was made but not where regular kebab was made.
IraqiEagle1001 (
talk)
20:54, 30 April 2022 (UTC)reply
If it is commonly acknowleged that Baghdad is the origin of kebab, then it should be possible to source it with
reliable sources. True, "Middle East" is not a country, but it is a geographical area that is the closest we can pin down the origin of kebab, unless sources tell us otherwise. Now stop edit warring and start providing sources. --
T*U (
talk)
08:57, 1 May 2022 (UTC)reply
@
IraqiEagle1001: I have responded: 1) "not a country" is irrelevant, 2) "commonly acknowledged" needs a source. Invalid? How? Please explain (based on Wikipedia guidelines). Whatever it "used to say" is completely irrelevant. It now says "Place of origin:". --
T*U (
talk)
17:20, 1 May 2022 (UTC)reply
It used to say “Country of origin”. Not in this article's infobox it didn't. The infobox template was changed thirteen years ago to show "Place of origin" explicitly to avoid difficulties with dishes whose origin is regional, not limited to a single country. That infobox appeared in this article ten years ago, showing "Place of origin".
“In the Sassanid Persian courts, gentlemen kept personal recipe collections, according to Perry, who is a food historian. None of these collections has made their way down to us, but the habit of recipe-writing had moved into Baghdad court culture by the 10th century.” and “Many of these cookbooks must have disappeared. Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq’s 10th-century, Kitab al-Tabikh (Book of Dishes), is the earliest known title. It was translated to English in 2007 by Nawal Nasrallah. Al-Warraq was not a celebrity chef, but rather a scribe who compiled the collection for an unnamed patron, one who apparently wanted to know how the kings and caliphs ate.” and “ The 14th-century Egyptian cookbook, Treasure Trove of Benefits and Variety at the Table, still shows the influence of 10th-century Baghdad, but also has many local modifications.”
IraqiEagle1001 (
talk)
01:10, 8 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Very fair point. Nothing in the quote suggests the origin of kebabs.
Britannica says a Kebabs are thought to have originated among transhumant peoples in
Central Asia, whose meat-heavy diet was transformed somewhat in an urban
context where vegetables were more readily available.
Many sources mention Turkey but there are suggestions of other locations.
Akkadian (now central Iraq) and Baghdad are barely in the running so I'd say they are out of the running here as well.
Kebabs almost certainly originated in lots of places because it's a practical option for cooking things.
I'd have gone with middle east but as the best source I can find is Britannica - let's go with
Central Asia,