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Archive 1 |
We need to make the distinction between German = run by Germans and German = situated in Germany. I hope this compromise works:
I edited out the explanation of what the General Governement was. We have a separate article on it and trying to explain this complex matter in just one sentence is not enough and might be misleading. The sentence that was there might've lead someone to think that the GG was some sort of a collaborationist government, while it was anything but this. The rest of the proposals seem ok with me. Halibutt 17:33, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)
According to historian Witte, gasoline engines were used.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sobibór_extermination_camp http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Peter_Witte
-- 85.140.12.4 15:34, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Kurt Gerstein - checking his testimony is embarrasing. He obviously wasn't there or had some other problem with observation. He claimed Zyklon B - there were more methods used at Belzec than there were witnesses and historians. Don't you think that one method should be settled on and either explain the others away or at least ignore them - if you are allowed to. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.105.80.92 ( talk • contribs) 19:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
The Romani people were also killed en masse at Belzec. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Porajmos.jpg
Yeah. Why it's all "Jews"? -- HanzoHattori 09:29, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Removing the Gypsy picture, which was not taken at the killing center but at the pre-existing so-calledlabor camp in Belzec, in 1940. See the legend about the picture at USHMM
"The ditch was originally excavated for of military reasons, now it was likely to serve as the first huge mass grave." Did it or didn't it? Anyone? Rich Farmbrough 17:09, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I believe the wiki article on Richard Krege states that with ground penetrating radar he was unable to find any pits - large or small. Has his work been verified - scientically not by verbal debate.
600,000 is not an option. It is an outdated Soviet-Polish estimate, that has been superceded by Hoefle's number. Arad has been able to prove 414,000 from known sources ("Belzec, Sobibor, Teblinka", p. 127), NOT 519,392. Thus, Belzec death toll is known more or less precisely, rounded it is 435,000 Jews. Maybe there were a couple of thousands Gypsies, but sources are needed for this. They don't change the overall picture.
"It is unclear whether the telegram includes Jews killed during deporations or in transit, or the date at which the count was taken, but it establishes an authoratative lower bound from the death toll at Belzec."
Wrong. Unless it is proven that there were more victims, it establishes the authoritative toll itself, not the lower bound. The phrase "or the date at which the count was taken" reveals ignorance - this is the data for the whole of 1942. Belzec worked as extermination camp only in 1942, so this is its complete death toll. -- 84.167.53.142 21:11, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
The guards and SS were housed across the road in two cottages. How many guards and SS were at Belzec. Two cottages seem too few, unless Belzec had a very small contingent. Also the study mentioned ( in main article " Remains of the camp") gives no link other than a Reuters report. Where can this study be read? Link?
Trying to find an independent source for Gora etal the only mention seems to be circular references. PS This and many/most holocaust wiki articles seem to be copied( or distributed ) from very proJewish - as in not scholarly - sites. Is this wiki's intent, I thought these were independent - somewhat originally written pieces. If these are all just copy and paste then why not supply the original copy and paste site also or only. No real need to search the web and run into exactly the same article multiple times.
"This and many/most holocaust wiki articles seem to be copied( or distributed ) from very proJewish - as in not scholarly - sites. Is this wiki's intent, I thought these were independent - somewhat originally written pieces". Ah - being pro-Jewish - is being pro the victims of a crime somehow wrong? I look forward to the well balanced articles that are neutral on the Son of Sam, Boston Strangler etc and not biased towards the victims - lets have more articles from the SS pov!
Wiki articles on Hoefle and Korherr ( and their links ) get the name of one of the camps wrong - used the Allies postwar name for it not the German name. Has this ever been cleared up. The Hoefle memo also talks about arrivals not deaths. Much of the evidence seems to point to Belzec being a stop over point, not even a camp of permanence - probably why it seemed to disappear so completely - Krege et al were never even able to find a foundation of note ( his research of course is open to revision - GPR owners know where to go).
Krege is an electrical engineer I believe. If anyone has a more qualified individual then he should step forward. If his analysis is deeply flawed then where is there a better analysis. A shovel could clear this up quickly but why spoil the suspense I guess. Yes the work by Kola, I hope is what you mean. Of 236 bore holes, he only mentions 137 of which only 2 are labeled as having human remains. How he extrapolated to 33 mass graves is part of his analysis that I missed - please help with a link to his methods if you have stumbled onto it. Thank you.
159.105.80.141
14:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Jan Karski - in his book "The Secret State" says that Belzec was a transit site. He, in 1942, saw no gas chambers and saw trains "leaving" full of prisoners. Source - his book, he teaches somewhere in the US, or did.
159.105.80.141
15:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
One Third of the Holocaust Has also a section on Belzec. I think the 600.000 dead story tellers are taking us for a ride. Btw.: Was site used for internment, while Poland was ruled by the Communists?! 41.242.222.240 16:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Per some historians there was very little infrastructure at this camp - transit camp only. Karski - in a book - I believe mentioned seeing trainloads of people "leaving" the camp after a short stopover. There wasn't enough for buildings to interest the commies, and there has never been found any appreciable burial sites of any time period.
159.105.80.141 (
talk)
21:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
O'Neil, Gora, etc..... in 1998-2003 I believe did etensive research at Belzec. After their archaelogy dig they came up with very little, at least if they "proved" their point they have been unexpectedly quite. Their published paper appears very general, very long but very general. I hope to see a fuller paper done by them someday. The tone of their paper looked more like ardent advocates than detached researchers, but maybe they will prove me wrong.
159.105.80.141 (
talk)
20:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Karski - and probably others - wrote that trains left full of prisoners. He of course didn't have a full count, but unless he is considered untruthful he is one source - there are few sources and no real forensic evidence for the numbers above.
159.105.80.141 (
talk)
12:38, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I have heard that Karski is now unsure of where he spent the 1940s. When he wrote and edited his book =, he seemed quite positive that he was at Belzec - he is the unusual man whose mind gets better with age.
159.105.80.141 (
talk)
21:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Then Karski must have witnessed all the stuff he reported at Izbica. The only problem is that Izbeca was a transit site. So he witnessed what didn't happen at Izbeca and he wasn't at Belzec - it's getting more confusing all the time.
159.105.80.141 (
talk)
12:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm glad we have been able to conclude that Karski knew nothing about Belzec or Izbeca so quickly. Maybe we should not so easily dismiss one of the major witnesses so readily, but so be it - I believe this taints all his "contributions". The work done on finding the mass graves, I believe, is less than conclusive. The report I read by Robin O'Neil, Gora, et al was less than a convincing scientific effort. Maybe you have some other reports, etc you are referencing. Others - deniers - have done more scientific studies and found very few graves/bodies, about what you would expect in a place where people were only held over for transfer(oddly agreeing with Karski's original assertions). Any link to reports etc will be appreciated - I may have read Gora et al when you meant other reports I have missed.
159.105.80.141 (
talk)
16:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
It certainly taints his testimony on Belzec etc - believers must agree with this, their own idea. At least the acceptance of his "falsus in uno" appears agreeable with all. His "omnibus" probably should be looked at, particularly dealing with related subjects. We have to be careful of the argumentum pro hominem fallacy of "veritas in uno, veritas in omnibus" or the sinister "falsus in uno, veritas in omnibus -1" fallacy. Any links on the definitive studies?
159.105.80.141 (
talk)
12:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
footnote [1] cites a wikipedia article that doesn't even mention Belzec - Is this legit. Also the fact being cited comes from the arrival numbers given in the Hoefle memo - another wikipedia article. Is footnote[1] a misprint? Are ther any other sources for the 434,500 number other than Hoefle? Wikipedia appears to be breaking new ground - most other reliable sources give much higher - rarely the same or even near each other but different and higher. Any source or is this original research? 159.105.80.141 ( talk) 16:06, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed this section as it is an unsubstantiated list without much context to back it up. I do think there is some inherent notability to concentration camp guards, but without things like ranks, duties, or whether or not they were willing participants or POWs forced to do the work the section has little to no meaning. A ni Mate 16:45, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Escape:
"only two Jews are known to have survived Bełżec: Rudolf Reder and Chaim Hirszman" this is not true, as you can see in the link attached at the end at least 7 escaped (50?). Yoricks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.228.250.164 ( talk) 14:24, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Under the heading "Closure and dismantlement", it says, "A last train ... departed in late June as the closing act of the camp", but it is not really clear what year is being talked about. Does anyone know or can anyone point at a suitable reference that would enable this to be clarified? Ondewelle ( talk) 22:35, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
The editorial added by Eternalllll keeps getting deleted but without any adequate explanation that I can see. Please can someone explain upon what grounds does the false testimonial of "electrocution chambers" at Belzec, in the book by Stefan Szend, "The Promise Hitler Kept" infringe wiki policy. At present the only reason given that I can see is that it is claimed to be "irrelevant". But in what way it is deemed "irrelevant" has not been explained. The contribution appears to be accurate, comes from source specifically discussing the Belzec camp, and is explicitly about its extermination programme, plus a reliable source has been cited. Can someone who objects to its inclusion explain upon what grounds they object, please. -- Mystichumwipe ( talk) 09:37, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Failed due to insufficient citations. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 22:23, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
Should this be "Bełżec extermination camp" or "Belzec extermination camp" ? We are using German name for Auschwitz, not Polish "Oświęcim" and Sobibor extermination camp, not "Sobibór". Why Polish spelling here ? -- Lysy talk 16:19, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
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Just to dot the i's and cross the t's - can we have a good explanation of why the external link is being removed? It would be nice to have a quick discussion so if need be, the page can be semi-protected rather than just edit-warred over. On first glance - the link seems at least somewhat relevant - at least as relevant as this or this YouTube video. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:26, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
I removed this photo as it doesn't support the text (nor is it clear when it was taken). I moved the student cleanup to the 1990s, as the text refer to cleaning by students in the 1990s, not the 1950s or 1940s. In this edit I removed content that was not present in the cited source, and entered a description of events in the 1940s and 1950s that is present in the source that was cited (in the previous page, which I added as a citation). Icewhiz ( talk) 07:04, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Re: [3]. Modern map could be useful for tourists, as long as it is clearly labeled, but overall historic maps from a particular time period might be preferable. See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Poland#Locator_map_for_battles for a bit of how-to if anyone wants to work on this. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:40, 16 June 2020 (UTC)