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These are suitably speculative but deserve further comment:
1) The notion that because the battle lasted all day, the English army couldn't have been exhausted by its earlier travails is simplistic. All accounts agree that Stamford Bridge was an exceptionally brutal affair, and there can be little doubt that any army would have been degraded by such an experience; the extensive marching would only have served to wear it out further. In reality, the duration of the battle infers that it probably contained long periods of relative inactivity; doubtless because both sides were wary of conceding any advantage to their opponents. Many studies have demonstrated that armoured men can only sustain close combat for several minutes at a stretch before becoming exhausted; Hastings wouldn't have been any different.
2) The claim that William was a more experienced commander than Harold is probably true, but is nonetheless overstated. In reality, Harold had extensive experience of campaigning, and not a little military success to his record. He would certainly have been considered an "experienced commander". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.199.236.87 ( talk) 12:07, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
File:Vexillum Willelmi Ducis.svg has no source - both links are deadlinks. Looking at my copy of Lucien Musert's Bayeux Tapestry (p 131), the image of the banner there looks nothing like this image and it's given for a time before William invaded. And then there is a different banner on page 215, that also looks nothing like this image. A third banner is on p. 217, which is different yet again. And more different banners on p. 223, p. 226, p. 230, p. 234, p. 236, p. 237, File:Flag of Wessex.svg is a derivative File:Flag of Wessex.png of says right in its description: "Flag of Wessex. Used in modern times to identify the area. The Golden Wyvern of Wessex on a red background". Thus the "anachronisitic". I will note that the Bayeux Tapestry (p. 261) for Harold shows a banner that doesn't begin to resemble this - it looks like it might be a dragon shaped standard of some sort, but it's difficult to judge except that it is NOT a rectangle/square shape at all. So... yes, anachronistic and incorrect applies to these imagined banners. We aren't sure which of the many banners shown near or carried by William's forces might be William's. And the image page itself for the Wessex flag says it's used in the modern day (and the Bayeux Tapestry's only "banner" near Harold shows something that is clearly not a square/rectangle shape at all.) Ealdgyth - Talk 22:22, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
Further - M. K. Lawson in The Battle of Hastings 1066 (p. 41) says that William of Poitiers says that the banner that Harold carried ended up with the papacy and describes it as "banner of the Fighting Man". Also - William of Poitiers says that William the Conqueror carried a papal banner at Hastings. Orderic Vitalis describes the banner as "the standard of St Peter the Apostle", but other historians do not agree that William had a papal banner at the battle. Wace (noted in Lawson's Battle of Hastings p. 113) says William had a "gonfanon (standard)" from the pope. It's pretty clear that we cannot say with any certainty if there were banners carried, much less what they looked like. Our sources seem to disagree - with the Tapestry giving multiple designs for banners for the Normans and showing something different than what is described in the written sources for Harold. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:41, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
What is "recent", what is "modern"?---- 217.248.11.88 ( talk) 16:50, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Great article, but shouldn't there be some mention of this battle's lasting legacy? It's usually considered (especially by British historians) one of the most decisive and epochal battles in world history, and although I know most of this would be covered at Norman Conquest, the battle itself was a turning point. I note that this issue was raised 10 years ago but never really addressed. Brutannica ( talk) 23:17, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm not going to remove the citekill template that's just been added, but I disagree with it. If there's ever a time when a sentence needs multiple citations, it's when it says "most" about coverage of a topic, as this sentence does. It's hidden in a footnote so it's not annoying to the reader. Eliminating some citations would only make it less verifiable. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 21:08, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
"only about half of the invading force was infantry, the rest split equally between cavalry and archers. "
The way this is written makes it sound like archers, infantry and cavalry are all mutually exclusive. This is twaddle. Cavalry fight on horses, infantry fight on foot. Archers can be either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.131.74.132 ( talk) 19:59, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
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let me edit i am an established solicitor from purple bricks i am not one to pull stupid little tricks i want to edit grammar and false changes made to articles Lelow dude15 ( talk) 16:24, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
The template you added is intended for use by someone who does not have permission to edit the article; the editor would suggest some specific change to the article. If someone with permission to edit the article found the suggested change prudent, the editor with permission would make the change.
Most articles can be edited by anyone. But Battle of Hastings has been semi-protected so that editors without accounts, and editors with new accounts, can't edit it. It has been semi-protected because the article has been frequently vandalized.
If you want to edit the article yourself, go edit some unprotected articles that need improvement. When you have made enough such edits, you will become autoconfirmed and will be able to edit semi-protected articles. Jc3s5h ( talk) 16:49, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
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Please change x:
"==Background== In 911, the Carolingian ruler Charles the Simple allowed a group of Vikings to settle in Normandy under their leader Rollo. [1] Their settlement proved successful, [2] [a] and they quickly adapted to the indigenous culture, renouncing paganism, converting to Christianity, [3] and intermarrying with the local population. [4] Over time, the frontiers of the duchy expanded to the west. [5] In 1002, King Æthelred II married Emma, the sister of Richard II, Duke of Normandy. [6] Their son Edward the Confessor spent many years in exile in Normandy, and succeeded to the English throne in 1042. [7] This led to the establishment of a powerful Norman interest in English politics, as Edward drew heavily on his former hosts for support, bringing in Norman courtiers, soldiers, and clerics and appointing them to positions of power, particularly in the Church. Edward was childless and embroiled in conflict with the formidable Godwin, Earl of Wessex, and his sons, and he may also have encouraged Duke William of Normandy's ambitions for the English throne. [8]"
to y:
"==Background==
In the 840s, viking Norsemen were entering the Frankish territories as raiders and, gradually, becoming settlers. The conception of nationhood was unfounded; there was no unified duchy. Rather there was northwest Neustria, or Annals of St Bertain, which was commonly referred to as March of Brittany, the region between Seine and Loire, and no man's land. With viking bands of settlers, composed of non-aristocratic lineages, formed a community, there came a new political ethos; they became known as "Northmen," from which "Normandy" and "Normans" are derived.
[2]
Vikings were adapting indigenous culture, renouncing paganism, converting to Christianity, [3] and intermarrying with the local population. [4] By 911, there was a traité en forme at St Clair-sur-Epte, which that marked the beginning of Normandy. There would be a convergence between Franks and Normans with a few generations. But for now, the treaty involved a marriage between Gisla and Hrólfr (also known Rollo to the Franks). And later, Charles the Simple created an alliance and a grant of rights to those Vikings seeking to settle in 918.
While Vikings did adapt, adopt, and assimilate to Christianity, they did not necessarily adopt indigious administration: "The creation of Norman power between first settlement and the mid-eleventh century is not primarily of assimilation to Carolingian forms, as those appear in the capitualaries. [9] Rather, the Vikings "adhered longer than the Franks around them--to older forms of social organization," that the Franks were abandoning. They came close to being absorbed into a lower social strata in Frankish society had not a wave of invading Vikings occurred in the 960s. "By the mid-eleventh century the descendeants of the settlers formed the most disciplined, cooperative warrior society in Europe, capable of a communal effort--the conquest and subjugation of England--that was not, and could not have been, mounted by any other European political entity." [9]
Over time, the frontiers of the duchy, based in kinship, expanded to the west. [5] It is not until Richard II that a duchy with legitamacy is produced. In 1002, King Æthelred II married Emma, the sister of Richard II, Duke of Normandy. [6] Their son Edward the Confessor spent many years in exile in Normandy, and succeeded to the English throne in 1042. [7] This led to the establishment of a powerful Norman interest in English politics, as Edward drew heavily on his former hosts for support, bringing in Norman courtiers, soldiers, and clerics and appointing them to positions of power, particularly in the Church. Edward was childless and embroiled in conflict with the formidable Godwin, Earl of Wessex, and his sons, and he may also have encouraged Duke William of Normandy's ambitions for the English throne. [8]"
because the section is vague in explaining the origin of Viking settlement, which eventually forms Normandy. There is a lot of strife over land at this time, and William eventually offers a solution and gains support.
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16:16, 29 November 2018 (UTC)Maybe it’s worth putting something about this, and the other conspiracies surrounding the battle. Thanks CodingCatSpeedySlothSimpsonsFan ( talk) 13:03, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
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It actually was one of the greatest battle of all time because it changed english history forever.If Edward the Confesser had an heir to the throne this would never happen 159.86.182.142 ( talk) 09:36, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
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Capital "F" for William fitzOsbern in section "Dispositions of forces and tactics" Rtorichard ( talk) 01:17, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
In the text below the Bayeux Tapestry description it says:
"Harold Rex Interfectus Est: "King Harold was killed". Scene from the Bayeux Tapestry depicting the Battle of Hastings and the death of Harold."
I believe the correct translation, if adhering to the Latin, is, "King Harold is Killed" rather then "King Harold was Killed". In this circumstance, the word in question is "est" which is present tense "to be" meaning 'he/she/it is'. If it was "was killed" as suggested it would have read "Harold Rex Interfectus Eram". Overall, I believe the correct translation is "King Harold is killed". — Preceding unsigned comment added by RadioActive66 ( talk • contribs) 01:39, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
A wikipedia page is not static, and editors are encouraged to be bold in their edits. With this in mind, why have my edits been consistently undone by users who seek only to remove my work and not contribute anything to the discussion? Some explanation would be appreciated. Djp.mortimer ( talk) 12:41, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Would you mind backing up any of those claims with some evidence or is that just your personal opinion? I know how to source so don't need lectures on competence thanks. Djp.mortimer ( talk) 13:20, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Djp.mortimer, I've reverted your changes again. Yes, articles are not static, but WP:BRD says discuss after reversion. You are at WP:3RR and are likely to be blocked temporarily if you revert again. Please discuss your changes and your sourcing on this page, and respond to Ealdgyth's points above. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 13:43, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Djp.mortimer has been blocked for 24 hours from editing this article. I've restored the page to before their edits. Djp.mortimer, when your block expires, please justify your changes here and try to gain consensus for them. If you simply start editing your preferred version in again you are likely to be blocked again. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 15:51, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
There are six leading sources for the Battle of Hastings according to Historic England:
[10]
These are regarded as contemporary and, in all but two cases, independent:
1. William of Poitiers: the Gesta Willelmi Ducis Normannorum et Regis Anglorum
2. Baudri, Abbot of Bourgueil: To Countess Adela, a poem addressed to William's daughter Adela
3. Guy, Bishop of Amiens (attributed): Carmen de Hastingae Proelio, a poem on the battle
4. The Anglo Saxon Chronicle
5. William of Jumièges: Gesta Normannorum Ducum
6. The Bayeux Tapestry
We do use primary sources on wiki, particularly for historical articles Djp.mortimer ( talk) 18:06, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
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Let's have a positive discussion.
I am posting this summary of what I plan to do here so that the proposed changes can be discussed, though I can see that the previous version of the paragraph did not have to be approved by committee.
I believe this section of the article requires significant improvement, most notably by greater emphasis on contemporary sources. Whilst group confirmation is not needed for such statements as "Harold was killed in the battle, and may have died late in the fighting"; here are my following suggestions.
Original text:
Harold appears to have died late in the battle, although accounts in the various sources are contradictory. William of Poitiers only mentions his death, without giving any details on how it occurred. The Tapestry is not helpful, as it shows a figure holding an arrow sticking out of his eye next to a falling fighter being hit with a sword. Over both figures is a statement "Here King Harold has been killed".[103] It is not clear which figure is meant to be Harold, or if both are meant.[107][s] The earliest written mention of the traditional account of Harold dying from an arrow to the eye dates to the 1080s from a history of the Normans written by an Italian monk, Amatus of Montecassino.[108][t] William of Malmesbury stated that Harold died from an arrow to the eye that went into the brain, and that a knight wounded Harold at the same time. Wace repeats the arrow-to-the-eye account. The Carmen states that Duke William killed Harold, but this is unlikely, as such a feat would have been recorded elsewhere.[103] The account of William of Jumièges is even more unlikely, as it has Harold dying in the morning, during the first fighting. The Chronicle of Battle Abbey states that no one knew who killed Harold, as it happened in the press of battle.[110] A modern biographer of Harold, Ian Walker, states that Harold probably died from an arrow in the eye, although he also says it is possible that Harold was struck down by a Norman knight while mortally wounded in the eye.[111] Another biographer of Harold, Peter Rex, after discussing the various accounts, concludes that it is not possible to declare how Harold died.[109]
For each account of the battle, it might be helpful to put the estimated time period it was written, eg. William of Poitiers, writing in the 1070s etc.
1. sentence 1: There are SIX CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNTS of the battle (listed above on the talk page). They do not contradict substantially: taken together they provide a collective, consistent story that can be interpreted logically. As such, this statement is false, or at least misleading, and at the very least requires attribution.
2. sentence 2: We need to add a source for William of Poitiers as a matter of priority, as it is not even listed among the references. Here is the source: * Davis, R. H. C. & Chibnall, M. (1998). The Gesta Guillelmi of William of Poitiers. Oxford: Clarendon Press.{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link). I don't know what the page number is.
Here is the source for William of Jumieges:
3. sentence 3: The tapestry is helpful - it is one the main six contemporary sources of the Battle of Hastings as listed above and as such is enormously helpful, as a prime contemporary source.
4. sentence 4: Harold is killed - The original latin should be recited here - along with a faithful translation - as the Bayeux tapestry is originally in latin. To state both Latin and English would be more useful and avoid misleading the reader.
5. sentence 4: It is unlikely both figures represent Harold, as nowhere else in the tapestry does it show the same figure side by side. Unless anyone has any evidence of such?
We may add this sentence: The issue is further confused by the fact that there is evidence that the 19th-century restoration of the Tapestry changed the scene by inserting or changing the placement of the arrow through the eye.
[11]}}.
That such a restoration occurred is a fact worthy of inclusion. It would also be helpful here to talk about the various sketches that were made before the restoration, such as the sketch by Benoit in 1729.
6. The earliest account for the arrow story is Amatus of Montecassino, an Italian monk - so only distantly connected to the events of Hastings, and at least 15 years after the battle. Therefore, why should so much emphasis be placed on this account? This account is unreliable, and as such is a candidate for historical revisionism. Thus it is fair to say: A story popularised after Hastings tells that Harold was killed by an arrow in the eye, although such incident is not related in any contemporary accounts of the battle. Is that not fair?
7. sentence 11: Too much emphasis placed on the views of a non-historian. It would be fair to take out the part stating "probably died from an arrow to the eye"
Here is my proposed change, constructive comments are welcome.
Harold was killed in the battle, and may have died late in the fighting. A story popularised after Hastings tells that Harold was killed by an arrow in the eye, although such incident is not related in any contemporary accounts of the battle. The historically accepted account of William of Poitiers (c.1070s) mentions only his death, without going into further detail. [12] William of Jumieges (c.1070) states that Harold died 'pierced with mortal wounds'. [13] The Tapestry shows a figure holding an arrow in his eye next to a falling fighter being hit with a sword. Over both figures is a statement "hic harold rex interfectus est": "Here King Harold has been killed". [14] It is not clear which figure is meant to represent Harold. [11] [b] The earliest written mention of the traditional account of Harold dying from an arrow to the eye dates to the 1080s from a history of the Normans written by an Italian monk, Amatus of Montecassino. [15] [c] William of Malmesbury stated that Harold died from an arrow to the eye that went into the brain, and that a knight wounded Harold at the same time. Wace repeats the arrow-to-the-eye account. The Carmen states that Duke William killed Harold, but this is unlikely, as such a feat would have been recorded elsewhere. [14] The account of William of Jumièges is even more unlikely, as it has Harold dying in the morning, during the first fighting. The Chronicle of Battle Abbey states that no one knew who killed Harold, as it happened in the press of battle. [17] A modern biographer of Harold, Ian Walker, states that Harold probably died from an arrow in the eye, although he also says it is possible that Harold was struck down by a Norman knight while mortally wounded in the eye. [18] Another biographer of Harold, Peter Rex, after discussing the various accounts, concludes that it is not possible to declare how Harold died. [16]
Djp.mortimer ( talk) 18:07, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
References
{{
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Gravett76
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William of Poitiers is not used as a source of this sentence. This sentence doesn’t have a citation! So please explain. If it’s such a big deal we can take out the words historically accepted, despite it being repeated elsewhere on wiki. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_Poitiers Djp.mortimer ( talk) 18:24, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Ok, we’ll take out “historically accepted”. “His death” is not even my edit, that’s the wording of the original article, which I changed as little as possible. Djp.mortimer ( talk) 18:45, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
As it stands, the article says the sources conflict. How come no citation is required for that statement, and yet a citation is needed to say the sources conflict? You are in danger of contradicting yourself. Djp.mortimer ( talk) 19:19, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Is that because Gravett is the first source in the paragraph? Djp.mortimer ( talk) 19:43, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Is it worth pointing out somewhere that this (most famous) date is a Julian date? To convert to Gregorian dates, the rule for the eleventh century is to add six days. Thus the proleptic Gregorian calendar date (i.e. the modern date) would be October 20. See: /info/en/?search=Conversion_between_Julian_and_Gregorian_calendars The six days are relevant to historians when thinking about daylight hours, tide times etc. - also something to consider when marking anniversaries!
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2019 and 5 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Celineeo0.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 15:25, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
On the Gary 2A02:C7E:278:5A00:9C4:73E1:D3D6:969E ( talk) 21:59, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
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please 92.239.153.215 ( talk) 16:06, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
@Nikkimaria the previous information wasn't sufficient at all. its inaccurate and reductive to suggest its a 'Norman' army, as this article itself points out 192.76.8.79 ( talk) 21:40, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
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