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Archive 1 |
No sources, unref tag added. -- FloNight 09:26, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Almost every source in the document traces back to the same PBS Frontline documentary. If there isn't any more literature to support such assertions that this practice "thrives" in northern Afghanistan (which it very well may for all I know) how can we bestow them with any more than speculative verification? This is a serious issue which must be addressed - such work as this would not pass as a undergraduate-level research paper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.18.2 ( talk) 01:03, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Sure it would. Investigative documentaries are citable sources. Here is the MLA citation if someone wants to properly cite it in the article: "The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan." Narr. Will Lyman. Frontline. PBS Television. 20 Apr. 2010. Television. Cheers. 174.5.104.204 ( talk) 23:35, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Can we try to find some more scholarly sources than an attack anti-Muslim site such as this for a source on a sensitive topic? The moral panic aspect of this article is high: Is WP going to inform or inflame? There are plenty of people online to do the inflaming. Let's try to find the best sources, not the most inflammatory.
footnote seven refers to: http://newcrusadenow.blogspot.com/2011/02/dirty-little-moslem-secret-boys-turned.html I do not think we need to refer to crusades and then attack a practice of some people as a "Muslim" practice. Note that the spelling Moslem is like George Bush saying Eye-rock for Iraq. Biased and attempting to display disdain.
Just because people who do something are Muslims, it does not justify making a stereotype and generalization. The same attribution is made about Greeks (ancient and modern), and check the etymology of bugger if you like. We are talking about culturally shaped practices, and we need to be careful in describing them, especially to avoid making prejudiced generalizations based on extremely limited knowledge. That is opposed to WP ethics, not to mention good sense.
Another reference here goes under the title: "Sodomy and Sufism in Afgaynistan." Perhaps it makes some valid points, but the approach is polemical. Again, this is complex issue. But Sufism 1) is not a single set of ideas or practices, 2) uses images of love as representations of passionate desire for the unattainable love of God. The image of the lover that often comes up in Sufi writings is the unattainable one, who gives pain. It may be used in other ways by some people but I have not seen any concrete description of this. Think of Catholic priests. Some are pederasts, others not. It cannot be attributed to the religious ideas of Catholicism regardless of its positive images of love for people of the same gender. This is part of the metaphorical idea of love as part of the religion. Sufism has the same idea. There are images of love for women as well, but it is not meant to be sexual.
There are plenty of academic sources on this topic. Only a few are mentioned here. these are better ones: Murray, Stephen O. And Will Roscoe, eds. Islamic Homosexualities: Culture, History, and Literature. New York: New York University Press, 1997.
Southgate, M. S. "Men, Women, and Boys: Love and Sex in the Works of SA'DI." Iranian Studies 17.4 (1984): 413-452.
Wright, J. W. And Everett K. Rowson, eds. Homoeroticism in Classical Arabic Literature. New York: Columbia University Press, 1997. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.84.174.248 ( talk) 21:33, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
"Though after the Russian conquest the Muslim tradition was suppressed for a time by tsarist authorities, early Russian explorers were able to document the practice. It was resurgent in the early years of the twentieth century as the boys were increasingly sought as entertainers by the new Russian (Orthodox) settlers, a practice criticized in the Central-Asian Russian press of the time.
The bacchá tradition waned in the big cities after World War I, forced out for reasons that historian Anthony Shay describes as: "the Victorian era prudery and severe disapproval of colonial powers such as the Russians, British, and French, and the post colonial elites who had absorbed those Western colonial values."[1]"
I think these two paragraphs should be edited. Referring to bacchas as "the Muslim tradition" seems to imply religious approval as well as Islamic origin. As Sikandarji pointed out, it's recorded that the ulema didn't approve of the practice. Also, referring to it as "the Muslim tradition" implies that bacchas somehow came out of religious tradition, when the practice of boy-prostitution in the East predates Islam by millenia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fouad Bey ( talk • contribs) 21:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps "local customs" may be preferable to "Muslim tradition". Although this phrasing would obscure the fact that the commercial pederasty represented by the baccha were not locally specific to Uzbekistan or Russian Central Asia but spread across the Muslim world, not to mention the fact that the contemporary observers and authorities thought so. This is not insignificant. While the ulema may have disapproved of the baccha, and pederasty may have long preceded Islam in the region, it is still worthy of note that the colonial powers (British, French, Tsarist and Soviet) interpreted the practice as Muslim. So when they were "stamping out" the practice, they saw themselves as "civilizing" the area by stamping out a backward, Muslim tradition. [References to this can be found in the introduction and first chapter of Dan Healey's book Homosexual Desire in Revolutionary Russia, as well as Rudi Bley's The Geography of Perversion: Male-To-Male Sexual Behavior Outside the West and the Ethnographic Imagination ]-- Speed jackson 18:03, 27 October 2007 (UTC) ___
Yes, as the President of Iran noted, in his country homosexuality doesn't exist. That's why they execute homosexuals there, because they don't exist. 76.105.254.23 ( talk) 23:20, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
"(British, French, Tsarist, and Soviet) interpreted the practice as Muslim. So when they were "stamping out" the practice, they saw themselves as "civilizing" the area by stamping out a backward, Muslim tradition."
The Colonial historians deliberately interpreted these practice as Islamic practice due to them writing history with the motive of spreading the white man's religion;i.e. Christianity. That's why they have to spread this notion that Bacha Bazi was an Islamic tradition (It isn't, homosexual acts are to beheaded by Islamic laws),so as to show the superiority of their religion and their culture over Islam. If this was really an alleged Muslim tradition, one would have found it to be practiced in every Islamic region outside the Shia dominant areas such as Malaysia,Saudi Arabia,Indonesia,Mauritius.
But only people adhering the Shia faith practice this act,and this was also well-known (by historians),in which they described post-Safavid Persia as a place where "boy love flourished spectacularly, art and literature also made frequent use of the pederastic topos. These celebrate the love of the wine(ironically, wine is also forbidden in Islam) boy, as do the paintings and drawings of artists such as Reza Abbasi (1565 – 1635). Western travelers reported that at Abbas' court (some time between 1627 and 1629) they saw evidence of homoerotic practices. Male houses of prostitution Amrad Khaneh, "houses of the beardless", were legally recognized and paid taxes.
It was evident this was practice in mostly Shia dominant area, as you can see that even their jurisprudence text sanctioned it(to an extent). Though there is no doubt that was also practiced by some Sunni Muslims(in the Central Asian region), it was largely due to it being influenced from the period of Safavid (Shia) empire onwards, where the cultural genocide committed by the Safavid regime forces the Sunnis to convert to Shiaism and adhere to the Safavid culture. None of the Sunni scholars approved it in any of their text, in contrast to the Shia scholars who allowed "fondling" to an extent. And Bacha Bazi was unknown in other Muslim majority areas (based on the British lawmaker records of the land at that time) such as Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore,Saudi Arabia (they were records of them trading female slaves for pleasure,but none related to Bacha Bazi). 210.195.14.82 ( talk) 20:20, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
In modern Persian, bache just means "child," not "catamite." -- Jpbrenna 8 July 2005 18:52 (UTC)
Bear in mind that Persian (Tajik) is still the principal language in the cities of Bukhara and Samarkand - Central Asia is not a uniformly Turkic-speaking region and people would have been familiar with the ordinary Persian meaning of 'Boy' or 'Child' for بچه I remember hearing children addressed as 'Bacheha' in Bukhara when I was there (I didn't know any Persian at the time but the word is the same in Urdu). Maybe it simply depended on the context, or the tone of voice used? At all events there seems little doubt about the derivation. Excellent article by the way - reading it I thought I would add the Schuyler reference, then I saw that it was already there! One interesting aspect of Schuyler's acount is that he states that performances by Bachas in Tashkent were suppressed by the Russians at the request of the local ulama, who strongly disapproved of the practice. This seems quite plausible to me, and suggests that the 'Victorian Values', 'Colonial Prudery' line is perhaps not the whole story. Sikandarji 08:14, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
109.188.127.38, why did you remove the New York Times article I cited?
For those interested, Craig S. Smith, "Kandahar Journal; Shh, It's an Open Secret: Warlords and Pedophilia" New York Times February 21, 2002, http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/21/world/kandahar-journal-shh-it-s-an-open-secret-warlords-and-pedophilia.html
Does anyone think it should be restored? Previous talk complains about shortage of reliable sources.
The editor who added this sentence seems to believe that the massacre of eight border guards was caused by a non-consensual Bacha bazi relationship. There is nothing in the citation that suggests that the massacre of the guards was caused by the relationship, which had existed for several years, apparently without incident up to that time. The other guards said that the relationship between the commander and the youth was "obvious", which makes it clear that the youth never complained to them about it directly, or that they were themselves complicit or participated. He and two friends, drugged and then shot the guards, after which they fled to the Taliban in Pakistan. It was about ideology, not sex. Mike Hayes ( talk) 17:45, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
it's wrong to say just pashtuns in the south do it, since tajiks also live in the south - also, it's wrong in the first place to mention an entire ethnic group of which not many do this filth, it's most common among warlords in the north with uzbeks being the main offenders and tajik children being the main victims, and in the south both pashtuns and tajiks do it. Whether you believe me or not doesn't matter, I've lived in afghanistan for years and am a tajik saying this about my country.
You just don't go around saying X ethnicity does Y crime. Simple as that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.241.114.251 ( talk) 22:31, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
I agree. Either mention tajiks/uzbeks also do it in the north or don't bother. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scytsari ( talk • contribs) 22:38, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
I didn't delete any of the references you made, I'm just saying putting either north or south is wrong and mentioning an ethnicity is even worse, since it's found primarily among warlords EVERYWHERE in afghanistan. I agree that pashtuns, like uzbeks and tajiks also participate in this but your document doesn't even mention that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scytsari ( talk • contribs) 00:01, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
There's no dog in this fight for me either but the fight of misinformation and stereotyping. Keeping it at 'parts of afghanistan' is best, either that or mention all the 10+ ethnicities living in afghanistan as they all indulge in this practise to varying degrees in various provinces. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.241.114.251 ( talk) 00:05, 1 May 2015 (UTC) This also doesn't affect me much either since I'll reiterate, I'm a tajik. You can check my IP history to see that I edit only things that are wrong or biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.241.114.251 ( talk) 00:09, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
It happens most in the north whether you want to believe it or not. I'm an advocate for 'parts of afghanistan' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scytsari ( talk • contribs) 03:41, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
Also, it's not a ruralized thing but rather it happens frequently in urban areas at all male parties, especially in places in the north like mazar-e sharif which you can even see in the documentary showing uzbek former northern alliance commanders luring young children into their business. Pleaase leave such matters for people who actually are from and know the area and all the good and bad in it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scytsari ( talk • contribs) 03:45, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
Also, I wouldn't place a high degree of trust in such articles used as propaganda, put your trust rather in the multitude of documentaries on the matter, all of which display the occurrence in the north of afghanistan which not only coincides with the history of bacha bazi but also the reality as it is now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scytsari ( talk • contribs) 03:48, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
WP:No personal attacks. Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 01:43, 19 May 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
You know what, there's no winning with people like you, you won't believe what I have to say anyway. The british invaded afghanistan long ago and could have talked about bacha bazi a lot, but they didn't because the practise was non-existent in the area until after the soviet invasion had occurred and even then it was among warlords and their friends, so you see, the british who are the same people who spread propaganda like rural women peeing into the mouths of soldiers to 'drown' them did not write a single thing on this matter, and today you want to talk about this as if you know anything from an article or two while not respecting the opinions of myself or the other guy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scytsari ( talk • contribs) 04:02, 1 May 2015 (UTC) |
Looks like we can start with a fresh discussion. I myself was partly involved in it because of the activity by Krzyhorse22 (falsifying sources and violating WP:BATTLEGROUND). This has gotten a bit out of hand. TheTMOBGaming2 ( talk) 02:09, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Bacha Bazi almost always happens to boys, so I think the painting should be of a boy not a girl. the main victims should be portrayed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:405:8402:ABB0:8843:709A:3597:EA08 ( talk) 19:51, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
The Guardian's December article describes this practice and the WikiLeaks revelations.
I removed the following as an unreliable source. http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2010/12/wikileaks_texas_company_helped.php
Please see related discussions in my recent contributions. Kiefer. Wolfowitz 22:21, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
the passage "In December 2010, a cable made public by WikiLeaks revealed that foreign contractors from DynCorp had spent money on bacha bazi in northern Afghanistan" doesn't explain the nature of the investment. it could mean they paid a prostitution fee or it could mean paid for the bacha bazi's freedom. the passage requires a disclaimer. the company dyncorp was tasked/contracted to destroy poppy fields. the lack of explanation for the payment, itself, needs to be explained as destroying the contract lead to all time record heroin production and bacha bazi raping. since the passage was never delineated and left as inference, the source cannot be considered a legitimate non-subjective reporting agency. 107.77.208.56 ( talk) 09:33, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
For some reason when I try to define it as such Wikipedia blocks it, that is ridiculous. I cannot even write the full word of pedophilia without it being blocked, so I have to write it like this; "P edophilia". Bacha Bazi involves sexual relations between an older man and a boy, it is by definition a p edophilic relationship. In fact in the exact same article, P edophilia is mentioned multiple times: "When the Marine suggests that the barracks be searched for children, and that any policeman found to be engaged in p edophilia be arrested and jailed" and here "But the U.S. soldiers have been increasingly troubled that instead of weeding out p edophiles, the U.S. military was arming them against the Taliban and placing them as the police commanders of villages—and doing little when they began abusing children." Also, a source mentions the word p edophilia when describing bacha bazi: Nordland, Rod (January 23, 2018). "Afghan P edophiles Get Free Pass From U.S. Military, Report Says". The New York Times. Retrieved January 23, 2018.
Also many other websites define bacha bazi as being a p edophilic relationship.
The fact that Bacha Bazi cannot be defined as being a p edophilic relationship on Wikipedia is insane. It makes me thing that p edophilia is being protected from anytime of negative stigma that could be attached to it. This needs to change now. Peppapig123456 ( talk) 05:56, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
I reverted this section [10] and I told that The Kite Runner is not about Bacha bazi.-- Khan Sher Khan ( talk) 06:18, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
It appears to be about a term for "Male-on-male child sexual abuse in Afghanistan/Pakistan". Isn't this more deserving of just a Wiktionary entry? This article should be merged it into Child sexual abuse in the Middle East. Of course, that page would first need to be created.
Dieknon ( talk) 12:51, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
Aside for the United States allies in Afghanistan.
"The Taliban banned and publicly punished the practice when they came to power in the 1990s, but after the collapse of their regime in 2001, when the former Islamist commanders from the days of the anti-Soviet insurgency came to power, bacha bazi again became common in certain regions of Afghanistan and evolved into boys being kidnapped, trafficked, and raped without any semblance to or recognition of the cultural nuances that used to embody the practice such as dancing at events or social gatherings. In today’s Afghanistan, it has become an avenue for wealthy or powerful men, particularly those involved in the factions that were part of the former Northern Alliance and the ANSF – the U.S. allies in the region – to sexually abuse young boys under the pretense of engaging in the historical practice of bacha bazi." https://newlinesinstitute.org/afghanistan/what-about-the-boys-a-gendered-analysis-of-the-u-s-withdrawal-and-bacha-bazi-in-afghanistan/
According to the page I link to, Washington's pedo buddies aren't doing "traditional Bacha bazi". They are "just" raping children.
The article should reflect that the "modern" practice is different and conducted by a particular group (of criminals). Referring to culture doesn't work.
Are these things broadly speaking more common in Afghanistan than in the United States? /info/en/?search=Child_marriage_in_the_United_States
The Child marriage in the United States page never refers to tradition. Thomas Jefferson had sex with at least one child. It was "just" part of a tradition of marrying children in the United States.
"Modern Bacha bazi"--if Bacha bazi is even a thing in modern Afghanistan--is as much a Pentagon thing as an Afghan thing. 89.253.73.146 ( talk) 18:26, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
The linked article had an errata which says:
"Correction: Jan. 26, 2018
An earlier version of this article referred incorrectly to 5,753 cases from 2010 to 2016 involving the United States and Afghan militaries. Those were cases in which the American military asked to review Afghan units to see if there were “gross human rights abuses,” not the number of times the American military reported such abuses."
So this Wikipedia article should be corrected as well to not claim the old statement, which arguably lets US military shine in better light. Asking about sexual abuse and reporting them are two different things altogether! 93.197.51.16 ( talk) 18:21, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
No, because the only Afghans who rape children are Washington's buddies. Why do you think the United States lost in Afghanistan? The Taliban is hated in Afghanistan, but the United States made them look good in comparison. The children raped at U.S. bases were stolen from villagers. The U.S. military then told those villagers to not to worry about the Taliban because these guys will protect you. The U.S. spent 20 years in Afghanistan and never had any interest in learning about the country. They left as hated as the Russians and they don't even understand why. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.253.73.146 ( talk) 20:13, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
The Kite Runner isn't really about that. The Kite Runner has its own story, so let's relate this issue to the The Kite Runner, the main story of that becomes meaningless.-- شارستانی ( talk) 02:19, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
The claim that bacha bazi is “centuries old” has an unfounded source. I would like to see proper information that proves its history. 173.72.199.42 ( talk) 03:40, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
Isn't this "tradition" of Greek origin, having been introduced during the time of the Indo-Greek Kingdom following the conquest of Alexander the Great? 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 01:37, 11 May 2023 (UTC)