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Has anyone got any idea about the historical background to this nursery rhyme?
Possibly, but not our article. It points to a website at www.famousquotes.me.uk which has a lot of invented/traditional but false "histories" for nursery rhymes. For example its ring a ring a roses gives a plague history on no evidence. Given that nursery rhymes change very fast until written down many seem unlikely. The plague history was authoritatively demolised by Iona Opie in "the Singing Game". I don't know what she says about Baa Baa Black Sheep, but there will be something.
Francis Davey10:28, 10 March 2006 (UTC)reply
Dame v. Maid
I have heard the rhyme recited as either "One for the dame" or "One for the maid". Should the latter be put in brackets?
I don't know if necro posting is a thing on Wikipedia but I just wanted to add that I also grew up with the "maid" variant of this rhyme. And, while I'm obviously prepared to accept the version I know isn't the "main" version, there is nothing wrong with "maid" in the rhyming scheme. The only relevant sound in the rhyme is the ay phoneme, which is present in maid, dame, and lane.
John Bullock (
talk)
23:00, 6 December 2021 (UTC)reply
I also want to add my voice to those who also grew up with Maid. Could there potentially be a difference between the written version and the oral tradition in some areas where the nursery rhyme is used?
RichF86 (
talk)
08:09, 4 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Hi Rich, I also grew up with it as "Maid". I work in a nursery a town over and they all know it as dame, but I had no idea the "dame" version existed before I started there.
I asked my mum to sing Baa Baa Black Sheep without looking up the lyrics and I confirm she knows it as maid. She also had a similar reaction to what I did upon finding out it was usually dame: "Dame???? [pulls weird face]".
I told her Dame was the usual version and she said "Oh well, I grew up with maid and it's going to stay maid." From this, I asked her if Grandma had taught her the song as maid and she said yes, she would have done. She never heard her mum saying dame, but maid.
For reference, my grandma was born in the 1920s, so we have a rough 100 years oral account of "Maid" here. Manchester, England.
Also, Frances, whether or not maid rhymes better than dame is irrelevant to the discussion. If there is an account of "maid" being used over a long period of time, then this is an official version of the nursery rhyme. (though personally I think maid sounds better, but perhaps this is dependant on accent which might be how it changed in the first place)
Mary Lou Rorie (
talk)
21:37, 5 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Many cities are named Birmingham. Which Birmingham is the article text talking about?
It is refering to the
England city of Birmingham I remember something to this nature being mentioned on the news over here in the UK and here is a follow up article on the "scrapping" of the idea
BBC News - Nursery rhyme ban scrapped
Coloured parents? Coloured children?!
How ironic that in an article discussing racial sensitivity the outdated term "coloured" should be used twice. I know many black people who would be deeply offended to be referred to as 'coloured' (they wouldn't care less about Baa Baa Black Sheep, however).
the trouble is that what is "sensitive" varies from place to place. Here (in the UK) "black" seems to be favoured, and "colour" not approved of, but I know that is not true in other places.
My little cousin learnt it as 'Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep'. Unfortunately, it does happen. From my personal experience, most people (including black people) think that it is ridiculous. I'm in England, by the way.
Zestos (
talk)
05:41, 23 January 2009 (UTC)reply
baa baa ethnic minority sheep
Baa baa ethnic minority sheep, have you any wool derived products?
Yes sir, yes miss, three bags full.
One for the democratically elected leader, one for the dame.
One for the vertically challanged child that resident down the lane. —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
82.11.188.27 (
talk)
12:18, 4 March 2007 (UTC).reply
baa baa corporate sheep
Yes this corporate sheep distributes its yeild 1/3rd portion to the promoters (masters),
1/3rd to labours (dame/maid who looked after the sheep)
1/3rd for the social commitment (who is lying down the lane) comment by leo, 5 April 2007
Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep
Under "Modern Alterations" this page currently reads the following: 'These changes have met with considerable criticism, many citing it as "political correctness gone mad", because of the fact that the rhyme was changed for racial and not for educational reasons.'
However, one of the sources cited,
Nursery opts for 'rainbow' sheep, quotes the charity, Parents and Children Together (Pact) as saying that the changes were made for educational reasons. I am going to edit this section to read the following instead: 'These changes have been met with considerable criticism, many citing it as "political correctness gone mad', because of the presumption that the rhyme was changed for racial reasons, despite the claim of one of the bodies involved that the changes were educationally motivated.'
I also wonder how appropriate the phrasing "several kindergartens and nurseries have been teaching children different versions of the rhyme" is when the sources linked only talk about two or three specific cases in the United Kingdom. --
Foetus In Fetu18:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)reply
It's ridiculous! "Baa Baa rainbow sheep" doesn't exactly go. The rhyme isn't referring to skin colour anyway, plus since when was there rainbow sheep? At least you get black sheep! I'm sure some black people feel that by the schools doing that, it is making the rhyme racist.
Whoniverse93talk?23:45, 11 July 2009 (UTC)reply
One day after work recently, some of the locals had a little creche of nursery-age kids going in the corner of the pub. A few nursery rhymes naturally got trotted out. All the kids sung Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep. I live in a non-distinct part of
Tameside.
I don't know if that means the relevent section of page needs to be updated. Either way I think there's a few racist nursery teachers in my part of the world.
Aheyfromhome (
talk)
20:38, 26 June 2011 (UTC)reply
This nursery rhyme is consistently miswritten (and recited) by referring to a Dame. In the middle ages women were regarded by and large as chattels of men and would in any event never be referred to as "dame" which is the shortened word for the French Madame (meaning 'my lady') and to which would be apportioned the name of the husband. However large parts of England were occupied by Vikings and their descendants and were known as Danes (for Danish). Indeed, were a line drawn from the Wash to Chester everything North of that line was under DaneLaw. Places like Leicester and York being under Dane Law are well documented and existed before the Norman (ie French language conquest)and after the conquest the cultural elements remained deeply entrenched in the countryside right up to the times of the great wool trade where traders not only provided wool for domestic consumption but for export too. So "one for the Master" (home), "one for the Dane" (established export) and "one for the little boy down the lane" (anyone else)
Charlesenglish00:14, 23 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Nice theory, but is there, in fact, any evidence for it? I bet no. Nursery rhymes don't generally represent ancient traditions so its very unlikely that something dating back to the Danelaw would turn up. If you can prove it, produce the references (and I don't mean another website or recent book with the same theory).
Francis Davey08:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Always sung as Dane, when I was a kid in the 1970s, rather than Dame. Never even heard of Dame being used instead of Dane, in that nursery rhyme. Oh well, I suppose that is Wikipedia for you. You learn something new everyday! — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
86.145.108.117 (
talk)
21:47, 28 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Is there a source for little Sean from Aberdeen?
I have moved to here the bit about a second verse mentioning Sean from Aberdeen pending a reliable source. The text in the article was:
This article has several versions that are not supported by citations. I plan to remove them to stop the article getting out of hand as editors have a habit of adding endless and often pointless versions once it begins. If you have citations please supply them. If you have reasoned objections to this move please give them in this section.--
Sabrebd (
talk)
07:33, 29 May 2009 (UTC)reply
Baa, Baa, White Sheep?
Am I right to think that in Britain there is a version, Baa Baa White Sheep, where the sheep has no wool for anyone:
Baa, Baa, white sheep, have you any wool?
No sir, No sir, No bags full,
None for the master, none for the dame,
and none for the little boy who lives down the lane.
I've not heard that before. I was born in the UK and lived in various parts of England and Scotland and can't recall hearing it. However, I found
this from Australia, it's on the last page. I also came across
this from the US. It has black, white and grey. The interesting thing there is that it's spelt "grey" and not the usual US spelling of "gray".
Enter CambridgeBayWeather,waits for audience applause,not a sausage01:33, 7 December 2009 (UTC)reply
The odds are that the white sheep version is one of the many local variations. They come and they go, often in attempts to lengthen the rhyme. Some make it into print, but none has so far become an accpeted part of the rhyme.--SabreBD (
talk)
07:39, 7 December 2009 (UTC)reply
Multiple verses
As a child in the 1960's I can remember singing a three or four verse version of this from a school textbook.
Each verse dealt with a different colour sheep, It also came with a commentary explaining the song.
I can't remember exactly, but the first verse was on the lines of
Baa Baa Black Sheep have you any wool?
Yes sir, no sir none for you
One for the Master, One for the Dane
None for the working man who lives down the lane
second verse - something like
Baa Baa White sheep have you any wool?
Yes sir, No sir, None for you
One for the Bishop, The rest for the King
None for the little man who kisses his ring
third verse was
Baa Baa Brown Sheep
Yes Sir, Yes Sir, all for you
fourth verse
spotty sheep? Pied sheep? I'm sure it dealt with mixed colour (Jacobs-type) animals
As explained in the old book (and I can't remember the name or author) the whole song is a social commentary on the relative merits of coloured and white wool. In medieval times white wool was at a premium as it could be dyed, and as a result white sheep became predominant. Their fleeces were all taken for sale: either by the landowner, or the King or the Bishop as taxes. The black wool would be taken for monastic garments The peasant who raised the sheep was left with the small amount of brown or mixed colour wool that wasn't required by the overlords
I also have half a memory that the later verses also dealt with the wool colours being handed out to the various monastic houses: i.e. black to the Dominicans, brown the Franciscans (who were major landowners)
Its all very interesting, but without some
reliable sources, there is not a lot we can add to the article. Most of these neat explanations are just speculation, we can note them as such if we have valid sources that outline them.--SabreBD (
talk)
08:02, 1 November 2010 (UTC)reply
W. W. Denslow's illustration of "Baa, Baa, Black Sheep", a children's
nursery rhyme that dates to 1744, when it was published in Tommy Thumb's Pretty Song Book. Since then, the words have remained mostly intact with few changes. The rhyme is sung to a variant of the 1761 French melody Ah! vous dirai-je, Maman, which is also used for "
Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" and the
alphabet song. As with many nursery rhymes, attempts have been made to find origins and meanings for the rhyme, but no theories have been definitively proven. Denslow's illustration accompanied a 1901 edition of Mother Goose.Restoration:
Lise Broer
I have to admit I have never heard that version, but significant alternatives are fine as long as they are properly sourced.--SabreBD (
talk)
16:56, 15 May 2011 (UTC)reply
To be honest, I was reluctant to take this one as I did not think that the article could be comprehensive looking at its length. But having looked in several places, it looks like I am wrong and this article seems to sum up the thinking pretty well. Looking good.
"It was first recorded in 1731.": Recorded is ambiguous here; the reader may assume recorded in the musical sense. And maybe combine with the the first sentence: ""Baa, Baa, Black Sheep" is an English nursery rhyme, the earliest surviving version of which dates from 1731.
"Uncorroborated theories that have been advanced to explain the meaning of the rhyme include that it is a complaint against Medieval English taxes on wool and that it is about the slave trade.": The main body does not say that the all the theories are uncorroborated; also, this is a bit of a mouthful. Maybe "Explanations of the meaning of the rhyme have suggested it may be a complaint against Medieval English taxes on wool, or concerning the slave trade."
Given that the first two surviving versions are given, are there any theories (either about this specific nursery rhyme, or generic ones) how long it existed before this? (I appreciate this crosses over into the stuff about the theories of what it means)
Generally reliable commentators do not assume it is much older than the earliest reference. Probably cannot expand this without straying into original research.--SabreBD (
talk)22:14, 27 August 2012 (UTC)reply
Page number wrong for ref 4 (according to google preview)? Also, seems to cross across 2 pages, and the linking of words and music is on the next page.
"Katherine Elwes Thomas in The Real Personages of Mother Goose (1930) suggested that the rhyme referred to resentment at the heavy taxation on wool,[5] this has particularly been taken to refer to the medieval English 'Great' or 'Old Custom' wool tax of 1275, which survived until the fifteenth century." Suggest splitting this sentence after first wool.
"However, this tax did not involve the collection of one-third to the king, and one-third to the church, but a less punitive sum of 6s 8d to the Crown per sack, about 5 per cent of the value.": Does this ref directly refer to "Baa baa"? Otherwise, this may be WP:OR, or at best, WP:SYNTHESIS.
Not completely convinced by the "linguistics" section, and not too clear what it means by "varieties of English".
I have no idea and I do not have access to the source to check. This is confusing in its current form, so I have removed it. If someone puts back a clearer version that is well and good.--SabreBD (
talk)19:01, 5 September 2012 (UTC)reply
Images seem fine, although not sure of the value of Blacksheep2.
Having two Denslow images is probably overkill. I will try to find something from a contrasting period sometime in the future (I take it that is not really a GA issue).--SabreBD (
talk)19:01, 5 September 2012 (UTC)reply
Spotchecks OK, apart from the minor issues above.
As far as broad coverage is concerned, a check of the sources and elsewhere is giving me the same picture as this article, so it looks OK. I'm not sure if this would be enough for FA without checking further, but happy for GA. May be worth a check of places like JSTOR for more academic sources for the future.
This article's interpretation that there was some sort of legitimate controversy surrounding actual amendments of the lyrics in accordance with PC values is not supported by the
Loony Left which states that it was all the fabrication of British tabloids and subsequently reprinted over the years.
If Wikipedia is supposed to be taken seriously surely there should be parity between articles of the same subject? Considering the amount of detail on this topic, this article's version is as best biased and at worse factually incorrect. 23:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Does this nursery rhyme have anything to do with black sheep's usage as a bad or sticking out person? (As in He is the black sheep of the family; he never goes to church.)
68.61.163.252 (
talk)
23:28, 2 September 2013 (UTC) high schoolerreply
This song received its own tune
This song received its own tune, and is no longer commonly sung in the tune Ah vous dirai-je, Maman. Should we add this information to this article?
Yusheng02 (
talk)
09:12, 22 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Tune
Well, I only learnt that song in a foreign school, but I'm quite convinced that our tone was a different one.The article now has
g1 g1 d2 d2 e2 e2 e2 e2 d2
baa baa black sheep, have you any wool
We sang, possibly transposed to also start in g1,
g1 g1 d2 d2 e2 d2 f#2 e2 d2
baa baa black sheep, have you any wool
It is just possible that "have you any wool" was repeated. Then the text has
You haven't specified where you learned the song. This is the tune I was brought up with (in southern England) and the only tune I know:
It seems to be the same as yours except for the third line, which is the same as the third line of the version in the article.
The article also doesn't indicate where in the world the version it gives is common, or even that the usual tune varies from region to region. We need to redress the balance somehow.... —
Smjg (
talk)
13:03, 29 February 2020 (UTC)reply