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Fair use rationale for Image:Associação Académica de Coimbra flag.png
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was move them all. It is very difficult to use Google to indicate what the most common name in English is as it gets mixed up with the professional football club (
Associação Académica de Coimbra - O.A.F.). But the University is under the name
University of Coimbra as is this is indicative that
WP:NC#Use English words should apply. Also it will make the leads easier to write because they can take the form "English name (Portuguese: Associação Académica de Coimbra ...)" Also I have remove the word section as it is redundant and would not be used in English and I have added
Coimbra University Stadium. I will make the moves but
Sebisthlm you will have to alter the wording --
PBS (
talk)
11:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)reply
Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with*'''Support'''or*'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with~~~~. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.
Oppose. It is needless and inaccurate. The organization is not a simple students union. It includes dozens of sports teams and athletes in several sports, including soccer, volleyball, basketball and rugby teams which play in the major sports championships of Portugal, side by side with SL Benfica, FC Porto, Sporting CP and other major Portuguese clubs. Associação Académica de Coimbra is a registered trademark. There is no other way to name it. In the official logo you can read AAC not CAA. The UEFA name for AAC OAF is the Portuguese version and for the other teams is probably the same. We don't call Royal Madrid to
Real Madrid or Sports Coruna to
Deportivo de La Coruña. However, I agree with redirecting Coimbra Academic Association and other English versions of the name, into this article.
Yodaki (
talk)
10:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)reply
Comment: "needless and inaccurate"? Might I remind you that this is the English Wikipedia? "Associação Académica" is impossible to write on a non-portuguese keybord, and it's impossible for an English user to know what to look for when searching Wiki. Have you read
WP:name and
WP:common name (especially the quoted passages)? As for inaccurate, I just took the seemingly official English name from the article itself. By reading the article itself I get the impression that the article is about a student union wich also has different sports sections, and not a former student union turned multi-sports athletic club. If it is a student union, I think the name should be translated as my examples above (why should only Portuguese subjects be named in portuguese when other subjects are generally translated to english?). If AAC, as you suggest, is a trade-marked sports club, then by all means the name (apart from the different sections) shouldn't be translated (In that case I suggest e.g.
Académica de Coimbra - volleyball section).
Sebisthlm (
talk)
12:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)reply
I suggest that we make all possible combinations of the names in English for all the sports sections/teams, and redirect those combinations to the current articles which were created with the official full name in Portuguese.
Académica de Coimbra - volleyball section,
Academica volleyball and
Academica Coimbra (volleyball) are good examples of redirects which could be included in that job. The red links on this page are also a good start to please all potential English-based searches for Académica's sections, departments, etc. It must be noted that disambiguation pages were already created for Academica, Académica, Académica de Coimbra, and they could be expanded in the future.
Yodaki (
talk)
00:07, 19 February 2008 (UTC)reply
I'm afraid I have to agree with Yodaki that you came to a strange conclusion of a consensus for a move here. Even if mine and Yodaki's discussion wasn't very intense, we were still debating on how to proceed. i was thinking of amending or possibly withdrawing my requests but waiting with a faint hope that some new blood would join the discussion. I don't know how you got a 1-1 vote as a consensus for a move.
I have now raised some principal questions on how these RMs were closed over at
WP:AN/I. I would like to make it perfectly clear that I don't think these moves were closed by any sort of malice from your part, something I also have made clear at WP:ANI. I'm not trying to point my finger at you, but rather raise some policy questions. I just think these moves weren't closed appropriately. It may seem a bit overkill to post these questions at AN/I, but I've tried, but not been able, to find another place. Best regards,
Sebisthlm (
talk)
20:03, 26 February 2008 (UTC)reply
Basically, if the vote is 1-1, how can that be a consensus for a move? Additionally, the RM was closed prematurely - even if the discussion had halted we could have slowly come up with a compromise. Either way, you single-handedly decided to move the pages without consensus, changing the move requests and adding Estádio Universitário de Coimbra. You should have instead adding your views and suggestions into the discussion, so they could have been debated. Again, I would like to be very clear that I didn't think you did this by any malice, the RM was just not handled properly.
Sebisthlm (
talk)
09:24, 28 February 2008 (UTC)reply
The discussion was over 5 days old the usual time for a WP:RM. WP:RMs are not just about finding a consensus. I will not move a page to a name that clearly breaks Wikipedia policies and guidelines even if there is a consensus for the move, not would any other responsible admin. In this case I gave my reasons for the moves. Basically I agreed with you (Sebisthlm) that the names should be anglicized. If consensus is you only problem then consider I as my opinion was the same as yours that there was a consensus to move the pages. Please remember that anyone can move a page and if the others were being moved because they were being anglicized then it definitely made sense to move
Estádio Universitário de Coimbra to
Coimbra University Stadium along with the other pages. Do you think that
Coimbra University Stadium should be at
Estádio Universitário de Coimbra if so why? I just checked and
pt:Estádio de Wembley is not called
Wembley Stadium would you expect it to be under its English name on the Portuguese Wikipedia? --
PBS (
talk)
10:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)reply
It works the other way, the non translation into English in English reliable sources is necessary, to show that the rules about
using English should not be followed. --
PBS (
talk)
13:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC)reply
Your not adressing my principle objection of how you managed the moves. Is it policy for admins to move pages against consensus at their own whim?
Sebisthlm (
talk)
08:01, 5 March 2008 (UTC)reply
OK, I wasn't actually saying you acted on a whim and rhetorically asking the question seemed to just cloud the question, since you're still not answering my policy question. You have only provided your arguments in favour of a page move, arguments that had been much appreciated at the actual discussion. I agree with some of them but not all (certainly not translating the stadium name). The main question is still, how can you make a clearly controversial page move when there is no consensus? What policy support such an action?
Sebisthlm (
talk)
12:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)reply
Which policy questions? See above "If consensus is you only problem then consider I as my opinion was the same as yours that there was a consensus to move the pages." --
PBS (
talk)
13:03, 5 March 2008 (UTC)reply
Yeah, but the problem is that you weren't part of the discussion, so your arguments never got the chance to get tried, as mine or Yodaki's were. Your arguments were also different from mine, e.g. adding the Stadium (I was personally thinking of amending the RM after my discussion with Yodaki). Furthermore, you're saying that you didn't and don't consider an eventual consensus when closing RM's, which is my main concern.
Sebisthlm (
talk)
14:08, 5 March 2008 (UTC)reply
I think you have misunderstood what I wrote above about this issue, but see also
IncidentArchive376#RM:Associação Académica de Coimbra and the paragraph that starts "See
Talk:Coimbra_Academic_Association#Review. If there is not a clear policy or guideline ...". as it gives a couple of other examples. Also see this one
Talk:Samuel of Bulgaria#Requested move. As
WP:RM says "Most move requests are processed by a handful of RM regulars who are familiar with naming conventions, nonbinding precedents, and page moving procedures". I have done you the courtesy of waiting for you to come up with a reason why my judgement on this was faulty but to date you have not produced one policy or guideline statement that indicates that my decision on closing this RM was at fault. Please consider that the backlog of WP:RM needs emptying again and if every decision was questioned this much few if any moved would be made. Also consider despite raising it 2 times on the
ANI no administrator has even flagged it as an inappropriate decision. I suspect that this is because over the last year and a half there has been a move away from just counting opinions to decide these issues to also looking at the Wikipedia policies and giving administrators more discretion. Take this example there have recently been two AfDs on
List of massacres with the second one BHG decided to move the page without a consensus to do so (see
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of massacres (2nd nomination)), but people respected her decision as the closing administrator and have not questioned it. --
PBS (
talk)
15:12, 5 March 2008 (UTC)reply
Now we're getting somewhere. As I've said all along I have two concerns with these closings: the principal concern of how these RM's were closed, and the smaller concern about the actual reasons for the moves. I raised the first question at WP:ANI in lack of a better place to turn (if there is a proper place to raise policy questions about how the move requests are closed at WP:RM, feel free to enlighten me). You have not until now addressed my principal questions, but rather defended your reasons for a page move. I understand that Wikipedia is run by amateurs, which is one of it's strengths, but one downside is that it's extremely difficult to get principal discussions on policies, routines and so forth going. Now you've finally addressed my concerns by saying that "over the last year and a half there has been a move away from just counting opinions to decide these issues to also looking at the Wikipedia policies and giving administrators more discretion". As a Swede I think that concepts like democracy, clarity and accountability are important, so I'm concerned by this development that shifts the "power" from the regular users to the hands of a few admins, who you yourself has said makes a lot of closings in short spaces of time. These are the questions that I think would be better off discussed at another place than in a review of a page move that no-one seemed to care about.
You can post a general suggestion that the rules are changed to work as you want them too at
Wikipedia talk:Requested moves who knows you may get a consensus to make such a change. But I suggest you do not use this as an example as suggestion that a local consensus should over-ride policies and guidelines will probably not get you very far. --
PBS (
talk)
16:28, 9 March 2008 (UTC)reply
First of all, I'm having trouble understanding what you write. I know you probably write a lot on WP in short periods of time, but try to express yourself a bit more clearly (especially when you're discussing with two non-native English speakers). Second of all, are you actually trying to discourage me from making suggestions on how to (in my opinion) improve WP:RM guidelines? Lastly, My point is not that local consensus should override policies and guidelines, it's that a single admin shouldn't unilaterally override local consensus on controversial page moves by his interpretation of policies and guidelines, and without looking into the subject at hand.
Sebisthlm (
talk)
10:23, 10 March 2008 (UTC)reply
On the smaller issue of reviewing your page move, I have said that I think the move of the stadium was wrong since Stadiums aren't translated per WP:COMMON (again, see all the category:football venues above). Are you actually saying that all these hundreds of Stadiums should be translated and moved. I'm also leaning towards that moving the different sports branches of AAC was wrong if they are professional sports clubs playing in national domestic competitions; In that case they shouldn't be translated, but moved to their WP:COMMON name.
You are turning things inside out
WP:NC states "Convention: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form.". If the foreign name (in a Latin Alphabet) has a common usage in English then it can stay as is but if not then it should be translated. There is no evidence that "Estádio Universitário de Coimbra" is a common name in English all five pages return by Google search of English pages are in Portuguese "5 English pages for "Estádio Universitário de Coimbra" -wikipedia.". As I said above this is not just an English Wikipeda quirk as
pt:Estádio de Wembley indicates. --
PBS (
talk)
16:28, 9 March 2008 (UTC)reply
Luckily we do not have to right all wrongs of stadia naming on this page, but a look at the links in the
Olympic Stadium article by no means shows that the local name is to be preferred to the English name. Further examples like Fiat is pointless as that is a common English name for the cars manufactured by the "Fiat Group" (The group uses the term on their Italian language web site rather than Gruppo so that is not a good example), but note that the article "
Fiat Tagliero Building" uses the English word building. --
PBS (
talk)
11:50, 10 March 2008 (UTC)reply
So you're maintaining that all those French, Spanish and Italian football Stadia should be translated? That's an astonishing viewpoint, but I'll put it forward to all the rest over at
WP:Football (it seems that we suddenly have a lot to do). Are you basing this on the fact that five out of 18 stadia from non-English speaking countries are translated? You have also not responded on the club and company names; should they be translated or not? Of course the word "building" should be translated in the "
Fiat Tagliero Building", am I making myself so unclear so you got the impression that I would want the word building in Italian or Eritrean? Note that neither the word Fiat (which is an Italian acronym) or Tagliero (which I'm guessing is a name) are translated despite
WP:UE, so your example seems to support my viewpoint rather than yours.
Sebisthlm (
talk)
16:52, 10 March 2008 (UTC)reply
I said luckily we do not have to right all the wrongs of stadia naming on this page. If you think the word building should be translated why not the word stadium? I am not suggesting that a foreign name that is commonly used in English should be translated, that would be silly and against the guidelines. But words like stadium should be translated unless it usually is not in English texts (eg
Stade de France but
Helsinki Olympic Stadium). --
PBS (
talk)
17:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)reply
I'm now advocating these page moves:
Coimbra Academic Association "the Associação Académica de Coimbra is the student union...under which there are, among other cultural sections, different sports sections competing in the Portuguese league systems" (or something like that) (per WP:UE)
Académica de Coimbra "the Associação Académica de Coimbra - O.A.G. is the autonomous professional football club" (with a hatline at the top of the page:"this article is about the football club; for the students union, see
Coimbra Academic Association") (per WP:COMMON)
Sebisthlm, good suggestion. I can't still agree with a different name for the parent institution (the AAC), however, your suggestion will be a remedy of last resort in order to revert all the mess we have seen here.
Yodaki (
talk)
18:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)reply
The Google search that you are doing includes
Associação Académica de Coimbra - O.A.F. the professional team. It also includes wikipedia entries. If you limit the pages to English pages, include the word "student" and exclude "Wikipedia". The results is "656 English pages for "Académica de Coimbra" football student -wikipedia". If one looks through the first couple of dozen pages returned it is by no means clear that you argument is true. Most of them are for the professional club or they use both terms. If one strips out pages with "Academic" and "Association" then Google returns "about 24 English pages for "Académica de Coimbra" -Academic -Association football student -wikipedia" --
PBS (
talk)
11:06, 10 March 2008 (UTC)reply
I don't think you read my post properly (or perhaps I wasn't making myself clear). By "the football club (AAC-OAG)" I meant the professional football club
Associação Académica de Coimbra - O.A.F. (the G in AAC-OAG was a typo). This is the club that shouldn't be translated. I'm not sure if I get your point on AAC-OAF - are you saying that there is a more WP:common name for the club than Académica de Coimbra? In that case - what? You didn't reply to the question if all football clubs should be translated, so perhaps you're saying that AAC-OAF (and all other football clubs) should be translated?
Sebisthlm (
talk)
16:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)reply
No I did not understand what you were saying and as I closed the
recent WP:RM on
Associação Académica de Coimbra - O.A.F. I will explain. AFAICT Associação Académica de Coimbra - O.A.F. or some combination is used in the English media for the professional football team so I see no need to move the article. But for the the other names I do not see a common English usage for any of them so the names should be translated into English in line with the guidelines. --
PBS (
talk)
17:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)reply
Yes it should be discussed on the specific talk page and see my qualification above: "or some combination is used in the English media for the professional football team". --
PBS (
talk)
13:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)reply
PBS man (or boy, I don't know), imagine this comparision/example: In Portuguese we never call
Texas Longhorns by its real name in Portuguese language because it would be a very nasty designation. It would be Cornos Compridos do Texas and since Cornos Compridos is easily undestood (slang) as "the guy whose girlfriend is cheating him" this college/university sports team's name would be a total joke. I urge you to understand that sports teams are usually referred to by its real native designation or, at least, by a short form of its native designation. Thanks.
Yodaki (
talk)
02:08, 12 March 2008 (UTC)reply
File:AAC.svg Nominated for speedy Deletion
An image used in this article,
File:AAC.svg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at
Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations
What should I do?
Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
If the image is
non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no
fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.
I see no point in
this edit as any additional information cab be placed in this article unless the the information becomes so much that a separate article is desirable. --
PBS (
talk)
13:03, 25 February 2013 (UTC)reply
I disagree, because an armature university team such as this is not notable in the English speaking world (as it is in a league for a country which has only participated in the first round of the Rugby World Cup just once (
Portugal at the Rugby World Cup). However I suspect the neither of us want to spend long arguing this point I will say no more on the issue. So that there is continuity in editing, I have merged you edits into the previous article with a history of more that just redirects. You will now find your edits in the article
Academica Coimbra – rugby. The most recent edit before yours, and before it was made a redirect, is
here you may find some additional information there that you have not included in your recreation which you want to include in your version. --
PBS (
talk)
10:37, 26 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Requested move 2
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Oppose The professional football team and this organisation are not directly related. The professional football team name is mentioned in a number of English language sources and those sources should be followed. Travel guides tend to use the local name (such as Lisboa for Lisbon because it is unlikely that the local signage will be in English -- so the "Lonely Planet Portugal" is not a very useful source for deciding on the appropriate name in this encyclopaedia). The consistency argument put forward by the proposer is I think confused. It makes no more sense to name this academic association after the football team than it would to move the the article on
Bavaria to "Bayern" because the football team article is named
FC Bayern Munich (or to move "FC Bayern Munich" to "FC Bavarian Munich". This article should remain where it either based on the source or under the AT policy "If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader". Also at a practical level there are several other article which use this name and have English extensions such as volleyball so it makes sense to keep all of the name in English rather than a mixture of languages. --
PBS (
talk)
23:40, 10 July 2013 (UTC)reply
Seems
the relationship still exists. After reviewing the argument above I am more confident that following the real name used in English printed sources is better than picking one of the multiple attempts at translation. Associação Académica de Coimbra is the Associação Académica de Coimbra's name, and is consistent with the football club.
In ictu oculi (
talk)
00:45, 21 July 2013 (UTC)reply
@Eldumpo. I presume you mean "in the article". I think that such a statement is misleading, both names are used in the article's sources and there is no clear cut winner, and one also has to look to see if the usage in the article reflects wider usage. Both a Google search of web and books returns not clear cut COMMONNAME among reliable sources. One I found is
Careers Office AAC by Sergio Pinto that indicates that the university itself uses "Coimbra Academic Association" when addressing an English speaking audience. Looking at the
university website in English the term used is "Students Association - AAC". --
PBS (
talk)
13:13, 12 July 2013 (UTC)reply
How does the university website in English "Students Association - "AAC" support Coimbra Academic Association as a title? AAC = Associação Académica de Coimbra not "CAA" - our current article title is all but invented and fails
WP:CRITERIA as innovation.
Relisting comment I really hate multiple relists, but I think we're deadlocked here. More input is especially welcome, as are statistics regarding sources. --
BDD (
talk)
16:04, 25 July 2013 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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