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As a novice user interested in the ideas and contributions of Arnold Toynbee, I find the article distinctly lacking. I also notice more emphasis on the issue of criticism (though it remains unclear to what exactly, it feels as if the article is just trying to make it clear that there sure is a lot of criticism out there) and pretty little on Toynbee's ideas and achievements. Also, surely a work of the scope of a Story of Civilization should merit a bit more attention? What about a bibliography? -- 190.48.103.105 13:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to see a bibliography of works by Toynbee...-- JECompton 01:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm - the external link is to a publisher's blurb. Not that I don't find more to say for Toynbee that some historians. But NPOV? I don't think so.
Charles Matthews 08:11, 9 Sep 2003 (EDT)
To anon. editor adding bibliography: there is no format standard at this point for books - but upper case is not it.
Also, please be careful of the category and interwiki links at the bottom of pages.
Charles Matthews 11:05, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Noted. Thanks. Do you want me to lower case it all? This is the first Toynbee bibliography on the web, as far as I am aware, and relies on S. Fiona Morton. It includes all published items of 70 pages or more in length listed in her work, Bibliography of Arnold J. Toynbee, OUP, 1980, including his contributions to works by others, other than
• his contributions to the 13th and subsequent editions of the Encyclopædia Britannica, which may have exceeded 70 pages per edition
• material published only outside the English-speaking world (reprints of journalism or of locally delivered lectures, selections from his works for Japanese or other readers, etc)
• translations of his works.
Dialogues published in the English-speaking world and books edited by Toynbee, or co-authored with one other writer or collaborator, are mentioned even where his contribution may have amounted to fewer than 70 pages.
Publication dates are for first editions (first publication of the relevant material in this form). Revisions to subsequent editions are not normally shown. The place of publication is London unless otherwise stated. If a work was published simultaneously in the UK and elsewhere, only the UK details are shown.
For his journalism and his many other contributions to books, see Morton.
David Derrick
Had also concluded lists could not be copyright. Some of the amplification is from me anyway. How much of it to give in an encyclopedia environment is also a tough call. Will rethink that point when I do the format change.
David Derrick
It should be noted that during the Holocaust, Toynbee was among those prominent British personalities who slandered Jews attempting to escape to Israel as Nazis. His anti-Semtic record should be noted.
I'm surprised to hear of this and assume it's just an ad hominem attack on his theories. I've read much of the 2-volume abridgment of Toynbee's Study of History and found nothing in it which offends me as a Jew. If he made any anti-semitic remarks I'd like to see these compared and contrasted with his views of Jews and Judaism as expressed in his main work. Uncle Ed 14:24, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I think he said things like Zionism shouldn't go the way of apartheid, not that the word was then used; but took South Africa as a negative example. Charles Matthews 08:33, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Even if Toynbee was opposed to the creation of Israel, that just makes him anti-Zionist, not anti-Semitic.
The argument for anti-Zionism versus anti-Semitism is specious. Here is why: In his major work A Study of History Toynbee argues that the Israeli treatment of Arabs during the 1948 war was morally comparable to the Nazi treatment of the Jews. He repeated this accusation in a 1961 debate with the then Israeli ambassador to Canada, Jacob Herzog, who asserted that the Nazi murder of six million Jews was incomparable to the unfortunate uprooting of Arab communities. ( "Moral v. Numerical," Time, 10 February 1961. ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bgold004 ( talk • contribs) 18:30, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
There were actually allegations from ca. the 1950's-1960's that Toynbee seemed to resent the Jews because they conspicuously failed to fit within his grand overall abstract scheme of history, and some pointed out that he seemed to give very short shrift to the Old Testament in early editions of his history (while celebrating most other forms of ancient literature and culture). Some also found his approach to the whole middle-east problem to consist of insufferably patronizing and condescending lectures to the Jews on how they were the whole problem, and how he imperatively required and demanded that they revert to the overall role in history which he, Arnold J. Toynbee, personally assigned to them. This could all be documented with sufficient research, but I don't have the material to hand right now... AnonMoos 18:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
There are several articles that explain Arnold Toynbee's elaborate latent antisemitism. Most of these are in print, pre-dating the internet. See in particular Thomas W. Africa, The City of God Revisited, Toynbee's Reconsiderations in the Journal of the History of Ideas, University of Pennsylvania Press, Apr. - Jun., 1962 at page 288, near the middle. The paragraph begins with Toynbee's characterization of Judiasm as a fossil of Syriac civilization. It ends with a lament that Jews were not sufficiently decimated to have prevented them from hurting Arabs at Der Yassin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bgold004 ( talk • contribs) 18:27, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
"This stems from a rebuttal to a stand Toynbee took in 1947 with the end of the British Mandate that rights of Palestinians still needed to be respected" - anyone spouting this ignorant nonsense really should go away and do some reading before entering the discussion. What 'Palestinians'? The only 'Palestinians' in 1947 were the Jews. The 'he was only anti-Zionist' gambit is sooo tired. Anyone opposing the Jewish nation's right to self-determination in its own homeland is antisemitic per definitio. Toynbee's virulent Jew-hatred is amply demonstrated by the points mentioned here by others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.223.241 ( talk) 21:34, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
A new reader having plowed through the entire -word article would have learned little about Toynbee's theories. Only 775 of th 2300 words are about him, and the 450 words about his approach to history shed little light on his views: they don't even list all the stages in a civilizations lifecycle and ignore completely Toynbee's concept of " Affiliation". Challenge-and-response is but one aspect. Uncle Ed 14:30, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Toynbee does mention environment, but his point about challenge and response is wider than that: he speaks of the need for the challenge to be not so much that it overwhelms you (like colonizing Greenland), but not so easy that you lapse into idyllic laziness (like people who live in sub-Saharan Africa, picking breakfast off a tree branch). I gotta crack open my copy of it again.
But I can't write this whole encyclopedia by myself!! Why do so many articles on important figures and topics have to suck so badly? Uncle Ed 20:09, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I made some corrections today to the page. I tried to tone down some of the statements made. I would seriously suggest that if people want to critique his work in this manner that that seperate sections be created on the page both cases can be presented.
I dont think its right to combine a description of his career and ideas with a hostile dismissive critique of them at the same time.
Could we all agree that at least 20% of the article should be about what Toynbee taught, professed or believed - especially in his book "A Study of History"? I don't mind if 80% then is rebuttals. Uncle Ed 05:08, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, there we hit a typical Wikipedia issue: the comparative history page is the tiniest of stubs. That means there is not much basis for talking about his effect on comparative history, either way. I think alluding to comparative history is useful, to place his work in context. Charles Matthews 07:53, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
There is something to that. On other hand, hitting the reader with the main reason for someone's celebrity is correct 'news style'. Charles Matthews 22:18, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
The inserted quotation by Anon user is extrememly close to the "meat" we have been discussing here. Toynbee said as much in Vols. IX & X of A Study of History. I would suggest an inclusion, perhaps somewhere introducing the quotation, that this is in keeping with his larger overall thesis of a "dominant minority" (i.e., his theory of mimesis), when he states in context,
nobs 03:45, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Please clean-up or add to this site. There is very little information on his theories. Even worse, the "critizism" section is empty of any substantance. I cannot tell what these critics believed was wrong with Toynbee's theories. Calling it "Philosophy of Mish Mash" does not explain what part of the theory is "mish mash" or where his arguments go wrong. Please flesh this section out. Thanks.
I note that the article twice mentions that Toynbee was an academic at the University of London. Whilst there is some centralisation of certain resources (examinations, libraries etc) the UoL only really exists in an abstract sense; it is a composite of 30 or more institutes and colleges, the larger of which are basically universities in their own right (amongst which the LSE is prominent). I therefore don't understand how one can be a research professor at the 'University of London', and thus this passage seems a bit misleading (it's particularly tautological to talk about the LSE AND the UoL (although I'm not certain when the LSE joined the federation)). I suspect it would be better to explicitly state which college or institute he was a professor at- can anyone enlighten me? Badgerpatrol 22:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know of Toynbee's reading habits?
Why on earth has the entire bibliography been taken off this inceasingly messy page??
Is About.com stealing this article's text, or is much of this article stolen from here [4]? GrubLord 14:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Peter Jenkins is married to Polly Toynbee, rather than being a sibling. Charles Matthews 12:45, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
James Blish's famous "Cities in Flight" series of science fiction novels is organized around a whole elaborate quasi-Toynbeean scheme (a full-page chart correlating future historical events with Toynbeean stages is included in some editions of the books), and Toynbee is also mentioned several times in the text of the novels themselves...
AnonMoos
18:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I am all for "trivia" - very much so, since it adds "flesh" to "bare bones". Which is why I cannot comprehend the reasons for the omission of T.'s "visions". (Anyone who knows enough about him to have written an encyclopaedic entry about him surely knows which "visions I am referring to.) It is a vital piece of "trivia" - certainly important to Toynbee himself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.61.38.43 ( talk) 03:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
The New College of Florida article claims that Toynbee came out of retirement to join the institution's faculty upon its foundation. Can anyone verify this? If this is true, it really ought to be added to this article. Harel Newman ( talk) 20:41, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Absolutely true. The Google News archive includes this article from the October 6, 1963 St. Petersburg Times regarding his appointment. As an aside, I am a former New College of Florida admissions director. HistoryETC ( talk) 07:17, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Everything Toynbee wrote was "stolen" (colloquially speaking) from Oswald Spengler, the German philosopher who introduced the Cyclic Theory of History in 1917. 93.219.181.143 ( talk) 17:15, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
New article, Toynbee's law of challenge and response needs help. Thanks Andy Dingley ( talk) 14:30, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
I've deleted this. We have (since my edits) a section on challenge and response. Some people do call this a law, others don't and I'm not sure we should/need to. But the main problems are that there is actually no discussion in the new edits of this 'law', just a list of civilizations Toynbee wrote about and some original research about those civilizations. What the article actually needs is more discussion of the concept, pro and con, and if the sources are there maybe discussing it in terms of one civilization. This editor means very well and is working hard but I don't think yet understands at all how this Wikipedia works and our relevant policies concerning original research and verification. Sociology of revolution is also basically original research with no references. Dougweller ( talk) 18:21, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
where on earth did u find this article? ^ Michael Lang, "Globalization and Global History in Toynbee," Journal of World History (2011) 22#4 pp. 747-783
Toynbee against Greek Humanism?? u cannot cite an article with the opinion of someone about Toynbee for the general description on the introduction. Also, it makes no sense, nobody can understand what is this person famous about (therefore mentioned on wikipedia), ur rushing into criticism from the very beginning of the wiki — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.24.55.83 ( talk) 02:22, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
u cannot write a wiki page based on a biographical book, its supposed to be either of an encyclopedical tone or the result of further research, kind of the voice that resumes what is generally said. The wiki clearly cared to portray Toynbee as somethng he wasn't, emphasizing on the citicism. Still needs a lot of work both on becoming more neutral and on offering more rich information. I started correcting, please join me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.24.55.83 ( talk) 01:52, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Adding so many tags in each section is useless. So is removing cited information. Just because it's not found online does not make the source invalid. Do not remove cited material without consensus. Icarus of old ( talk) 04:44, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
where on earth did u find this article?
− ^ Michael Lang, "Globalization and Global History in Toynbee," Journal of World History (2011) 22#4 pp. 747-783
− − Toynbee against Greek Humanism?? u cannot cite an article with the opinion of someone about Toynbee for the general description on the introduction. Also, it makes no sense, nobody can understand what is this person famous about (therefore mentioned on wikipedia), ur rushing into criticism from the very beginning of the wiki — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.24.55.83 ( talk) 02:22, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
−
− − Thank you for the message. The article you are referring to is interesting, but indeed it refers to the intellectual heritage of Toynbee, it is an analysis. The introduction lead cannot refer to it, its a matter of style, keeping the tone neutral (e.g. the reference to the criticism against Toynbee is way too extended, if u go through what has been written about Toynbee u ll see how controversial he was - opinions neither positive, nor negative). I would suggest that whoever writes the intro must first have completed a more universal and original - solid reading on Toynbee so the into reflects a vast reading rather than that of an article (which makes it too specific/detailed and, well... a re-reading). Normally journal articles (even the finest ones) can compliment secondary analysis (further paragraphs, sections), not the intro. I m sure this article has a lot of information to offer (if we are critical towards it of course) a little further on the wiki.
− − I will definitely send u an email, would love to read the article, thank u!
151.24.55.83 (
talk)
13:14, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
User:Rjensen, do you have a specific reason to repeatedly promote the criticizing of Toynbee, against the majority here who clearly say that this article emphasizes on this aspect and needs to become more neutral? Since the introduction already mentions in a neutral way both his achievements and the critique he received, please add relevant information only to the criticizing paragraph and NOT on the introduction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mt1720 ( talk • contribs) 15:16, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Mt1720 ( talk) 16:19, 11 September 2013 (UTC)It is a matter of format, an introduction reflects general assumptions, you go into depth too early on the article Mt1720 ( talk) 16:19, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Mt1720 ( talk) 16:07, 11 September 2013 (UTC) The controversy exists because historians 50 years ago had the complete different attitude towards him, therefore it is important to mention this controversy in the intro and explain whatever detail around this controversy on the paragraph related to the controversy. You cannot introduce such a controversial person (going from extreme adoration to extreme dislike) by emphasizing on the dislike and showing the opinions of those disliking his work, right from the introduction. A person reading a wiki must be encouraged through neutrality to read about this controversy. An encyclopedia is not to describe the trend of any given moment (wether the positive or the negative) because as u can see, things constantly change. Neutrality is the only way Mt1720 ( talk) 16:07, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Mt1720 ( talk) 16:12, 11 September 2013 (UTC) if u read the current edit of the introduction, you will see that it features every element of the issue, negative and positive. It doesnt go into depth for either, so the reader can continue reading instead of feeling that he is reading an opinionated wiki. It is not correct to go in depth about anything for an introduction. The intro needs a lot of improvements (e.g. it doesnt need to go to this extend describing the study of history) with a focus on very general inormation about Toynbee. Hopefully with your collaboration we will improve it soon. Let's discuss instead of deleting edits all the time Mt1720 ( talk) 16:12, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Mt1720 ( talk) 00:25, 12 September 2013 (UTC) To start with, the lede is called a LEAD, because it leads to the main text. In our case it is an introductions because we are building an encyclopedic article, not journalistic. The same goes for opinion, an encyclopedia must respond to reality, not specialists opinions. It is our intention to make this article from class c to class b, and there is no way to achieve that if u continue promoting one opinion. Everyone on the Talk agrees on how negative the wiki is.
Toynbee was enthusiastically respected by scholars and media just as much as he is despised today. If you want to emphasize on the reasons on why he was disliked: either start a new wiki about them so u can expose any academic's opinion, or enrich with these opinions the relevant categories of this wiki (e.g. criticism, or make a new one about the controversy). The "meat" as you call it is not why Toynbee is despisded from the 60's and on, but also what he contributed. I strongly suggest you start a detailed separate wiki refering just to whatever you wish it t refer in relation to Toynbee, or please respect the neutral tone we are trying to build. A controversy means just like that and we are happy to discuss it and analyze it. But the controversy, not just one aspect of it. The intro includes everything, without any assumptions (do you have a study or a way to produce a study that proves that nobody reads Toynbee anymore? Please read the intro and you will see that it clearly shows that he is an abandoned thinker, there is no doubt about that).
I m planning to make extended research for this biography and establish a very neutral wiki about Toynbee, there are going to be plenty of revisions this week, lets collaborate if you are interested, but only if your goal is to write a good class a wiki, not simply to create one specific impression about Toynbee Mt1720 ( talk) 00:25, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments and guidance.
The "quote" I cited for Toynbee is in wide circulation, but seems not to be in the book. I apologize for that error.
Toynbee's error is in not recognizing that the Egyptian civilization was most certainly at least "contributed to" by Africans/Blacks as the physical evidence certainly demonstrated during his time and DNA and more modern science confirm.
Perhaps I will be back with your guidance in mind. DamaniK ( talk) 19:42, 29 September 2013 (UTC)DamaniK-- DamaniK ( talk) 19:42, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Please provide ref and use a neutral tone. The quote u added is not accuate, nor is the page number you refer to, this is the accurate one, on page 54: http://books.google.it/books?id=FBh462QXBgoC&lpg=PA419&vq=black&hl=it&pg=PA54#v=snippet&q=black&f=false
Here's what is wrong with what you wrote:
Toynbee also expressed racist views and was infamous for his quote: "It will be seen that when we classify mankind by color, the only one of the primary races, given by this classification, which has not made a creative contribution to any one of our twenty-one civilizations is the Black Race."—Dr. Arnold Toynbee, The Study of History, Vol. I, page 233. 1947. This was at odds with the evidence of the primarily Black civilization in ancient Egypt (Kemet).
racist views:
He is referring to the contribution of the black race to the specific civilizations for which he has created a concept, and are the following: Egyptian, Andean, Sinic, Minoan, Sumerian, Mayan, Indic, Hittite, Hellenic, Western, Orthodox Christian (Russia), Far Eastern, Orthodox Christian (main body), Persian, Arabic, Hindu, Mexican, Yucatec, and Babylonic. I don't think there what he says is inconsistent. But we are not here to debate about a person or a book content, but about how something should be writen, based on what OTHERS have writen about a person or a book content. There is no academic or even journalistic text that describe Toynbee as a racist.
infamous:
There is not a record about him being a racist in order to use the word "infamous". You must provide a substancial number of accurate references to this (personally i could not find it). Not his book and your opinion about it, but accuarate academic or other valid references that describe a. his racism and b. that it was a famous one.
The controversy of the book departs solely from the fact that it is not easily classified as history in today's standards since it entails spirituality and religion philosophy. But this is a particular book anyway since it is not self-defined as history, but a study of the history, or philosophy of the history. It was never controversial because of its racicistic content.
Please read the book so you can understand how exactly he classifies these civilizations and under which criteria he uses.
Another issue: format-wise, even if what you mentioned was accurate a. it could not appear in the introduction, it stands out and it doesnt follow the neutral and general introductory style of the paragraph, b. even if it did it would need to have accuarate references, c. we cannot accuse anyone about anything, we can only say that someone was perceived as such etc (with the references)
Finally, language-wise: what we write on wikipedia must be an accuracy based on what others have written about what we describe, not our opinion, our reading on what we describe (in this case the book and an author). That is an opinion that belongs to an article, an essay, a blog post or anything u wish to write. But not an encyclopedic article. The latter requires a recorded fact and a generally accepted impression. Mt1720 ( talk) 22:54, 12 September 2013 (
Toynbee was extremely racist, and this Wikipedia article should say something about how he he was extremely Anti-Semitic and Anti-Black and Anti-Anything Except for European....
Can anyone locate a list of Toynbee Prize winners by year? Their website seems to list the winners alphabetically, rather than chronologically. It would be nice to incorporate who won in what years here. KConWiki ( talk) 01:39, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
I came to this page knowing little about Toynbee, but had seen his views cited elsewhere. I came here to find out what those were. The introduction says:
It looked like I was going to find out, but reading through the whole thing, I see nothing specific about this "religious and spiritual outlook". It appears that the authors know this already, and forgot that the reader might not. "needs more meat" above is correct. BillyKwiki ( talk) 15:22, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
The lead paragraph to this article is a bit awkward; I think it best to simplify it so it focuses on Tonybee's work and not his reputation. Discuss if desired. Chagallophile ( talk) 15:32, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
How can such an article be accepted in Wikipedia? It says NOTHING about Toynbee's works, his philosophy of history, nothing essential. Only things which could have been written in a yellow press article. Trivialities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1205:5045:1BC0:8C:1B10:BE32:B512 ( talk) 16:39, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
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The article got some anti-German bias as it states that pre-WW2 had territories of Poland, which is untrue.-- 105.4.5.113 ( talk) 21:39, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
Why is spelling not uniform in this article ? "z" is favored over "s" -by 26 to 8- but there are still many occurrences of the latter. It seems that US spelling is "z", and that this is general for words ending in [aiz...], while british english uses "s". I lean towards US spelling but in any case i think any given article should stick to a single spelling -which i believe is wiki's general recommendation. Plm203 ( talk) 16:45, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Use British English, so the uses of American spelling do need to be changed — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 20:13, 9 December 2023 (UTC)