This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
It's possible that there is in fact no good way around this, but surely this entire article reeks of bias and arrogance, which besides being out of place in an encyclopedia, is thoroughly unjustified. To be against anti-intellectualism, at least according to the definitions set up in the article, is surely the least courageous and most purposeless stand possible. To glorify intellect, and look down one's nose at those who do not has all the moral bravery and originality of declaring that Hitler was evil. Cultures since ancient Greece and before seem to have found a way to draw on one side or the other of the anti-intellectual debate, and the role of the two sides in typecasting and defining the roles of politicians, activists, artists, philosophers, etc. is one of the richest and most varied and complex aspects of the human endeavor to control one's image, and the image of others, to decide those strengths and tendencies which are to be valued and accepted in a society, and to shape or stem the flow of ideas and movements. If this article is to written correctly, it must be written with genuine curiosity, and not by someone who is letting a sneer be their umbrella. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.53.140.195 ( talk) 05:22, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
The section on American anti - intellectualism is just silly. The entire thing just blames all of America's anti - intellectualism on the conservatives. I don't like 'em either, but seriously that's just bullshit. I'd expect to read that in a propoganda pamphlet, no exagerration. I wouldn't even know where to start with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.192.34.220 ( talk) 21:11, 17 March 2008 (UTC) ]
Much as I hate to say it, he has a point. There are liberal anti-intellectuals too. *points to metaphysicists* 128.255.179.144 ( talk) 05:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
No, he doesn't have a point; and conservatives aren't the only anti-intellectuals, we shouldn't divide "anti-intellectuals" into groups, there are a lot of Americans who are anti-intellectual because people are taught that being smart isn't something to place value upon.... (besides, I would bet money on the fact that most of the "controversy" on this page comes from conservatives anyhow) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.29.176.60 ( talk) 05:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
"Although a variety of religions have rich intellectual traditions, some rely on arguments from authority that are not independently verifiable"
What? Religion is almost entirely based on arguments from authority. The only "rich intellectual tradition" of most major religions (especially the Abrahamic ones) is the suppression of intellectuals, logic, and reality. This intro sentence is more than wrong, it's the opposite of the truth. 99.246.109.131 ( talk) 20:50, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
The religion section is still very silly. I know it nods towards the "Western university system" and says that.. you know, several philosophers have been religious without seeing a conflict. why would they see a conflict? It has a very modern-minded view of the term "religion" when discussing historical points of view. When the medieval universities evolved religion was a completely different concept. But it's true that universities were entirely run and attended by members of the clergy, and the highest level of education was theology. Christian theology as well as ancient pagan (but still evidently religious philosophers such as Aristotle, Plato) philosophy have been the two major influences on Western intellectual life... The problem is is that religion is such a broad idea that can also be argued to be anti-intellectual, and focus on obediance and not asking questions. but really this has more to do with which religion was used. It was used both by intellectuals and against intellectuals (esp. by religious and secular rulers who could fit in under 'authoritarian regimes' or whatever). I just don't think it should be listed in the way that it is here. 129.67.138.111 ( talk) 22:13, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Can someone give examples of who actually says these things:
"Such critics would say, for example, that not teaching kids multiplication tables in primary school and not making sure that they learn algebra by graduation is a blatant example of anti-intellectualism and malfeasance on the part of many schools. They would similarly criticize allowing students to graduate without learning the key facts about their country's national history, or without having read lots of Shakespeare."
"It may be argued that in these countries it is generally believed that high school education has given a student sufficient exposure to general education topics. No such confidence is usually shown by observers of the American school system."
"On the other hand, there exists much anecdotal evidence of anti-intellectualism among African American youth who may consider focusing on school studies a "white" thing."
"Today, Christian thinkers, who have less influence in society, no longer consider education in general evil, although they may object to some of its specific un-Christian aspects, e.g. alleged anti-religious or pro-abortion propaganda in schools and colleges."
If no one can give instances of these arguments without using weasel words ("such critics", "would say," "may be argued," "may consider," etc), then there is no reason to think these are real arguments, and not mere straw men.
Take this example: "...there is no serious national debate about intellectualism of these fields of inquiry in American colleges because the educational establishment generally ignores such claims, sometimes calling the critics anti-intellectuals." Give examples of critics who call them "anti-intellectuals." Also who or what is this "educational establishment" described? And how could a (presumably) non-human entity have the ability to "ignore" claims? I'd be interested to see how somebody could possibly back that up. -- Head of the Caligula Appreciation Society 07:05, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
Re: "Such critics would say, for example, that not teaching students multiplication tables in primary school and not making sure that they learn algebra by graduation is a flagrant example of anti-intellectualism and malfeasance on the part of many schools."
Sorry...it's been awhile since I was in elementary school, but can anyone name any public school in a developed country that doesn't teach multiplication tables? If not, this example is just sort of a red herring. Figureground 04:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
This article has such barely-veiled contempt for the attitudes described in it. Populism is a "temptation" of democracy? (Presumably an evil temptation that must be resisted.) Anti-intellectual attitudes are "mired in internal contradictions" because there is more than one type of anti-intellecutalism? DanKeshet
I tried a change I hope others find an improvement. Also, I am troubled by the section on pragmatism, which actualy sounds pretty iognorant -- Perice, Dewey, and James were real intellectuals! SLR
What's with the "Anti-intellectualism is found in every nation on earth, but has become associated in particular with the United States of America" BS? How NPOV is that? Anti-intellectualism is a broad phenomenon. It is not NPOV to talk about this in terms that either state openly and at least in slightly veiled form that all anti-intellectualism has to do with America and Christianity. -- Watcher
I am removing this thing: "For example, in 1843, Bayard R. Hall wrote of frontier Indiana, that "(w)e always preferred an ignorant bad man to a talented one, and hence attempts were usually made to ruin the moral character of a smart candidate; since unhappily smartness and wickedness were supposed to be generally coupled, and incompetence and goodness." " This way out of context and makes no sense here, other than for the purpose of pouring dirt on all things American. There are plenty of realistic examples of anti-intellectualism in American popular culture without this particular pearl.
This here statement: "When Richard Nixon evoked the virtues of a "silent majority," he indicated by implication that he was governing with their interests in mind, as opposed to the interests of a minority that was unrepresentatively vocal and loud in their beliefs." has nothing to do with anti-intellectualism. Who says that the silent majority was somehow anti-intellectual? The silent majority surely included plenty of very intelligent and educated people who remained just as silent as the average Joe.
Ok, I am finished editing it for today. I think now it is much more informative and not nearly as POV as before. Nevertheless, that may be my POV :) so feel free to weigh in. -- Watcher
This entire article is funny, but completely ridiculous. Most of it, in my opinion, probably boils down to resentment-harbouring wikipedia users dissatisfied with their surroundings. It's a bit immature, is it not? It's also quite biased--it would be nice if we could get an anti-intellectual to write it, but I guess that's asking a bit much. If you use anti-intellectualism to achieve great success in life, as Nixon and Bush have been accused of (oh listen to my weasel-wording!), do you score any points? I mean, those guys took their lumps publicly, but in the long run it kind of seems like they won in life. MikeFlynn52 03:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
For the record, that was a joke. MikeFlynn52 03:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
The Forrest Gump DVD cover image placed in the article by User:Ihcoyc is problematic for two reasons.
I'm reverting the edit for now. Discuss? - Korpios 00:16, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I'd consider the film "Forrest Gump" and its great popularity to be prime examples of American anti-intellectualism. On a totally different topic related to anti-intellectualism, perhaps there should be some mention of the Italian Futurists, who, despite being intellectuals themselves according to any definition of the word, were quite anti-intellectual in their rhetoric and did have influence.
I understand that there may be strong feelings about POV in this article, so I'll try to explain very fully the changes I've just made in the lead section:
As the lead section stands before my change, it seems to me to be very POV. The first two paragraphs of alternative definitions are probably meant to balance each other, but they really don't. The definition of anti-intellectualism as a bad thing — the first paragraph — is neutral in tone, but the definition as a good thing — the second paragraph — has warm, approving words like "broader", "simply" (twice!), "a grain of salt" and "understood" in it. Those words say that here comes the real dope. The first definition is stated to be one sense (very distant and neutral choice of words) and the second definition to be a broader sense (very approving choice of words). No balance.
The paragraphs do balance one another in another way, though: they use negative words to about the same extent. There's "hostility" and "attack" in the first paragraphic, "vain" and "narcissistic" in the second. "Vain" and "narcissistic" are more directly negative, but on the other hand "hostility" and "attack" are more sneakily negative, so on the negativity score I reckon the paragraphs weigh about the same.
To fix the balance, you could either rewrite the first paragraph to be "warmer" or the second to be "colder". I'm not sure which is the best way, but I've tried "cooling" the second. I think it's stronger, not weaker, for it, and with a better focus. (Please notice that I've still got the same amount of negative words — "proud of their vocabulary", "fond of hearing their own voices" — better than the original ones, I think — so that the balance in that sense remains.) Somebody else is welcome to try the opposite. I've introduced a link to Academic elitism that I think is helpful in the context, so please consider keeping that, if you want to edit or revert the section.
Incidentally, I'm removing the human archetype in the second paragraph because it doesn't make any sense, especially not with the definition of archetype in the article that it links to. Also removing "intellectualism" for being a non-existent -ism. Bishonen 16:24, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I removed a good deal of material from the sections on the USSR, China, and Cambodia that was POV, inaccurate, irrelevant, or some combination of the three. I'll be glad to discuss ways to rework it, but as it was it was hopelessly inappropriate for an encyclopædia.
This article also greatly understates the rôle of anti-intellectualism today in the United States. Shorne 05:18, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The quote from the Tao Te Ching with regards to Mao Zedong shows a deep misunderstanding of the words of the Tao Te Ching.
I changed the Soviet section title from "former Soviet Union" to "Soviet Union". The former title (pun) means: the successor states to the Soviet Union. The article discusses what happened in the Soviet Union, not what happened in places that were formerly the Soviet Union. Zaslav 07:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
The article contains the following:
Oh, was it, now? Can anyone "well substantiate" that the educated became less moral during the Enlightenment? "Christian" does not mean "moral," nor do "atheist" and "Deist" mean "immoral."
I've questioned whether the NPOV flag can and should be removed from this article already above. This apparently related to the treatment of various Communist countries, which I believe has been resolved by curtailing those sections. I also reverted back to the original flag from the totally-disputed flag, which was added by an anon editor who was apparently unhappy about the connection made between lack of religious faith and immorality; that too has been edited out. I have also revised the opening for a more NPOV tone, at least as I in my possibly warped judgment see it. At any rate, is any flag still needed, wanted, or warranted here? — Smerdis of Tlön 15:56, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Though I am unable due to severe instability of connection to make an edit removing or clarifying the phrase I suggest that the following be removed by one who is able to do so: "However, there is no serious national debate about intellectualism of these fields of inquiry in American colleges because the educational establishment generally ignores such claims, sometimes calling the critics anti-intellectuals." It states nothing and only implies POV that the university system unreasonably ignores complaints without any proof and without any clear suggestion of evidence.
I find this article to be ridiculously biased. The US and UK are cited as main examples of anti-intellectualism and the mass purges of intellectuals in China is conspicuously absent. "Urban students were encouraged to spend time in the countryside"? Are you kidding me? The article is so outrageous in its unsubstantiated and biased claims that it should be deleted and started over from scratch. Xj 04:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
This entire article is POV. Maybe you should provide a precise definition and leave it at that.
I also *looove* the part about how Christians = anti intellectuals because they disagree with some things in public schooling. That must be where all the well performing christian colleges and private schools come from - the poorly hidden anti-intellectual meaning of Christianity! Make sure you don't qualify Christian at all, they all agree about everything, because religion is the opiate of the masses of sheep and all that. (This last paragraph was entirely sarcasm, if that was not obvious.)
As somewhat of an anti-intellectual myself, I agree that the article has something of a POV, but I don't consider it unnecessarily blatant and I don't see how one could straighten it out without losing the sense of it. Though somewhat overlong, and in places hyperbolic, it nonetheless has some truth to it. It seems to me that the subject itself is inherently POV, no?
So let's take off the scare warning and let it rip. Everyone can figure it out for themselves. Let's get this show on the road. (For you intellectuals, that's an anti-intellectual phrase). wgoetsch 20:13, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
it seems to me that bringing stereotypes based on 'anecdotal evidence' is unprofessional in the extreme, and is not suitable in an encyclopedia resource. You wouldn't open Britannica and find 'people often think black kids hate study because whites like it, and by the way, asians study really hard'. The other point is that it adds nothing of substance to the article. I propose we remove the references to race.
203.122.212.51 09:28, 12 January 2006 (UTC)Jo
I deleted a lot of rambling today... to the (anonymous) person who wrote it - some of your material was valuable and was incorporated. But most of it belongs in "Criticism of the Bush Administration," "Criticism of O'Reilly," etc.
If this article mentioned every modern American figure who's supposedly anti-intellectual it would be as long as the phone book.
Mjk2357 removed the Iraqi section with this comment: 05:20, 22 January 2006 Mjk2357 (→Anti-intellectualism in Iraq 2003-2006 - deleted vanity link)
i'm afraid i don't understand this. If there exist claims that Robert Fisk and the BRussels Tribunal are wrong, then please add the counterclaims with external sources. Iraq had one of the most highly educated societies in the region (apart from Israel), and the deliberate destruction of its professors by targetted killings is the same type of anti-intellectualism as what happened in USSR and PRC, even if it's on a much smaller scale and the situation is different.
If there is a valid reason for not having the section "Anti-intellectualism in Iraq 2003-2006", then please explain it here.
i added a sentence about the lack of knowledge of who's doing the campaign. Boud 14:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't know anything about this group. Their claims could be true- the history of Chile and Iran shows the lengths the US gov't will go to in order to achieve its aims. I deleted your stuff not out of political reasons but because this article is too huge already. If we add a reference to every obscure activist who makes a claim of anti-intellectualism it will get even more out of control.
The killings of intellectuals in Nazi Germany and under Stalin are not disputed. This group on the other hand seems largely unknown and highly controversial. I wouldn't mind a subarticle "Claims of anti-intellectualism in Iraq" but let's try to keep the size of the main article below 40kb, ok?
Any objections to deleting this stuff other than from Boud? Mjk2357 20:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah I think the Paul Graham stuff should go too... not what he said but the inline reference to him. I am fighting Enormous Article Syndrome/vanity links here. I wouldn't mind him in a footnote.
Any objections other than from the reverter?
Mjk2357 21:48, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
On the other hand, while I have not read the Sperber book, I'm not sure that interest in sports and partying is as immediately relevant to the topic of anti-intellectualism as Graham's essay, which does attempt to provide a hypothesis explaining why "nerds" are looked down upon in some youth subcultures. (Colon reset) Smerdis of Tlön 04:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
This article is, of course, insanely biased, from start to finish. I'll give one point I severely disagree with: He takes on the anti-academic stance of some conservative thinkers, not paying attention to the fact they are intelectuals themselves and have devoted their lives to such a statute, nor that they are not writing libels against intelectuality itself. The closest a person got to that was Paul Johnson in his books Intelectuals, but he uses a very narrow (and weird) definition of intelectual in it, namely, that of the left-wing cultural agitator. If the article was called to be called Anti-academicism, it would be ok, but it's not. It should be entirely re-written, or at least, improved by a number of different people. Anyone willing?
- I find it ironic that, at least according the the inferences I made from reading Generations ( William Strauss and Neil Howe), all 3 of those sources of anti-intellectualism mentioned above ("Religious fundamentalism", "1960's student culture", and "current themes") could be strongly linked and associated with the Babyboom generation. They were definitely strongly identified with leftism in the 1960s/70s, and with fundamentalism/conservatism ever since, underscoring the currently predominate anti-intellectual themes of the Bush administration, Fox News, talk radio, etc. Unfortunately, the term " nonintellectual" probably better fits my own generation, " X", or " Thirteener", and it seems like mainly members of heroic and adaptive generations (such as the " Greatest", or " GI" and the " Silent") are characterized by any degree of intellectualism, or sympathy thereof. Perhaps this issue should be addressed in further edits of the article. I for one do not think it is "insanely biased" against conservatives or fundamentalists; it's long been my opinion that most leaders of conservatives (and even of some liberals) have always been, in actuality, obscurantists anyway. Shanoman 20:33, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
<----All that sounds good to me. Mjk2357 07:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
There's a simple solution to the need to include the section on Anti-intellectualism in XXIst century Iraq and the large size of the article: split off Anti-intellectualism in the United States into a separate article Anti-intellectualism in the United States and leave just a short summary in this article. The United States constitutes only about 5% of humanity, there's no reason why it should constitute about 50% (?) of the geographical section of this article. Moreover, there are no reasons for excluding the present (claimed) campaign of systematically killing Iraqi academics. Boud 01:35, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Mjk2357 16:33, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I have problems with this section:
In the interest of disclosure, I'm no fan of Bush et al. at all, but I am sympathetic with some of the foreign policy stuff. I hope that is irrelevant.
The issue here is partisan framing, i.e., cloaking the debate on neocon'ism with as if neocon'ism were a tried-and-true intellectual school. Neoconservatism is NOT part of a larger academic cannon, and the debate over both its intellectual foundations and its practicality is legitimate. The section seems to paint neoconservatism as the "Truth", just trying to get out. Without denying anti-intellectual trends on the left, by framing criticism of neoconservatism as "anti-intellectual", the author is then able to skirt a substantive response to the criticism raised. It is little more than a slightly-more-subtle-than-usual ad hominem attack. Nobody on the left is saying, gosh darnit, if Bush weren't such an intellectual, we wouldn't be in this mess.
Furthermore, the section offers no citations, uses highly perjorative language, and reduces criticism of neoconservatism to a straw-man. So I'm gonna put an NPOV tag on the section. I would love to hear your comments on this, but I really don't think the section can be salvaged, and should therefore be deleted.
By the way, whoever put up that picture of Adlai Stevenson is awesome! Zweifel 03:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
...we may want to split off historical anti-intellectualism into a separate article. Thoughts? Mjk2357 15:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
This article cites Hofstadter but doesn't discuss him; taking his argument as a given. Alternatively, Hofstader could be seen as one of them thar Foucauldian founders of discursivity. The Kulturkampf can be framed in other ways: don't have to use anti-intellectualism. Billbrock 04:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC) P.S.: yeah, I know it's an encyclopedia entry and WP:NOR, but the subject is inherently ideological. There is no hope of writing an NPOV entry w/out some reframing, IMHO. Billbrock 05:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
In an article like this NPOV is an impossible ideal. All we can hope to do is present the various POV's in a non-flamewar fashion. Mjk2357 11:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
The Populism section currently begins:
Populism is another major strain of anti-intellectualism. Intellectuals are presented as elitists and tricksters whose knowledge and rhetorical skills are feared, not because they are useless, but because they may be used to hoodwink the ordinary people, who are conceived of as the 'salt of the earth' and the source of virtue.
My sense is that it is not correct to refer to populism as a strain of anti-intellectualism. It reads, "populism is a type of anti-intellectualism." No doubt there have been many populist movements with anti-intellectual tendencies and which have been outrightly anti-intellectual. But ant-intellectualism doesn't seem to follow necessarily from the definition of populism, and I think we can easily imagine populist movements which are not anti-intellectual. It is not difficult, for example, to conceive of a populist movement being anti-corporate or anti-upper class without being anti-intellectual. Just look at the salaries of most college professors if you have any doubt that professor (intellectual) does not imply upper class :)
Since this section doesn't cite any authoritative sources considering populism a "type of" anti-intellectualism as the currently scholarly opinion, I suggest we change this to instead say something to the effect that poplist movements have often been anti-intellectual and had anti-intellectual tendencies. The section already cites McCarthyism as an example of a populist movement with anti-intellectual tendencies or rhetoric.
dircha 22:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
To be perfectly honest, its claim that there is a lessening demand for college education must be raising eyebrows. Everything I've ever read or heard on the subject tends to stress how much harder it is to get a job with just a high school degree today (as compared to the past)...and that even a BA isn't enough anymore. So...because that section is unsubstatiated, and seems to run against common sense, maybe someone should look into it? Novium 17:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I would like to excerpt from from this section (which I did not write) of the main article here to demonstrate (to some Wikipedian editors/administrators) that Adorno was a critic of the anti-intellectualism of the left during the 1960s, and that the term he used for it, "actionism", is a valid sense of the word, which I included on the disambiguation page " actionism" (which I did write):
- REDIRECT [[ 1960s student culture]]
Especially in the 1960s many student demonstrators romanticized the impoverished populations of Appalachia and the Mississippi Delta. The lack of formal education in these regions was seen as a sort of freedom from "conformist" society that allowed one to lead a more genuine and worthy life. The sanitized version of folk music that became popular on campus around this time is a related trend.
The anti-war movement also despised the highly educated and objective Washington technocrat, epitomized by Robert McNamara, who was not moved by subjective, irrational emotions. McNamara was alleged to make decisions solely on numbers and probabilities and could not see individual lives or deaths as anything but statistics. The Vietnam body count was offered as an example of this objectivity.
Theodor Adorno, himself a Marxist, sharply criticised this trend in the 60's Left, which he called "actionism," defined as the belief that actions such as protests and strikes could change the political structure by themselves without being supported by solid theory and an organized program or party.
Also, some of the extremes of the student movement at the time were heavily influenced by Maoism, which has a strong anti-intellectual component.
I believe there is merit to documenting the critics of anti-intellectualism, as well as the anti-intellectualism itself. Shanoman 20:59, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
The See Also section is becoming quite long. Maybe some of these categories could be merged with this article? Godfinger 13:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that the link Keeping up with the Joneses is relevant to this article and should be deleted from this section Godfinger 13:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Mjk2357, while I understand that socialists cannot come to agreement on what that term means, socialism, as I've understood it, occurs when the means of production are under the control of the state. By that definition, Sweeden, while exhibiting a substantial degree of state control over the means of production, is not yet a socialist country (even though it has started to enact restrictions on speech). Sweeden is best described as a democratic socialist country at best (a country on the way towards socialism but not yet there).
Under the definition I've outlined, a better example of socialist countries include China, Cuba, N. Korea, etc., which have exhibited a concerted effor to stamp out their intellectuals. Freedomwarrior 23:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure about this one. The most relevant phrase in the paragraph is "There thus exists the potential for increased anti-intellectualism in the future.", (looks to me as though it falls under WP:CRYSTAL) The "factual evidence" is described as "dubious" and no sources are cited. Someone else also noted that it seems like BS (in a comment). Leaving it in for now, so I can wait for a consensus. ~ UI ( talk) 22:46, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
I deleted this section. It was pure commentary. The overarching perception is that outsourcing American jobs hurts blue collar jobs, not ones requiring tertiary education. If you want to re-add it, then provide evidence to support your statements, and refrain from editorializing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.253.228.89 ( talk) 14:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
To use arch-intellectual William F. Buckley as an example of right-wing anti-intellectualism is ludicrous. Being anti-contemporary left-wing academia does not make one anti-intellectual. This is the old prejudice that anyone not left-wing must ipso-facto be anti-intellectual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.222.149.167 ( talk) 23:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree with this unsigned comment and I deleted the sentence. If anyone objects, please say so. -- Danfly ( talk) 03:15, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I hardly think it is fair to characterize anti-greek sentiment as being (disguised) anti-intellectualism. It's more proper to look at it from a cultural sense. Plus, I'm not sure why banning the bacacchanalian mysteries counts as anti-intellectualism... and if it's not meant as evidence of anti-intellectualism, why is it included? Novium ( talk) 01:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
The bias in the article is pro-academia. "Anti-intellectualism" is an academic term used partly to describe what the article says, hostility toward academia, and partly it's a term used by academics to pass off criticism of academia.
Under the heading "Expression," people who use the term "anti-intellectual" are portrayed as conceiving of intellectuals as "others." But you could just as easily say that intellectuals conceive of non-intellectuals as "others," passing off their views as uneducated, or are intolerant of non-academic views without duly understanding the context of everyday people's lives ( Ivory tower begins to get at this, but the fact it's a perjorative term undercuts the legitimacy of this criticism). The term anti-intellectual might refer to either hostile or legitimate criticisms of academia, both of which are labelled "anti-intellectual" because intellectuals don't like criticism, at least not from those "other" people outside the ranks of academia. 24.68.37.204 ( talk) 20:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Well that was a pretty piss-poor attempt at spin. Sorry, no. My God, this is almost as bad as those who attempt to say you are a bigot if you disprove of bigots. Just as there, where being against bigotry is NOT the acceptance of ALL views, including those against acceptance of views, your idiocy comes from terming bias as somehow being against objectional things. It is not bias to have in a wikipedia article criticism of Hitler if that article is about criticism of Hitler. 119.11.32.232 ( talk) 09:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC) Harlequin
You assume anti-intellectuals are necessarily objectionable, like bigots or Hitler. Creating guilt by association. But if we accept that those whom academia labels anti-intellectual are not necessarily objectionable, that they sometimes have valid concerns, then we might understand the term anti-intellectual to be sometimes used as a defensive reaction to defend intellectualism (or what one believes to be intellectualism in themselves). Academics aren't immune to emotion - often it seems to be a guiding force behind their politics. Your own comments are emotional in tone, enough to refer to my "idiocy."
A more balanced article would discuss how academics may provoke anti-intellectualism by the hostile way in which they sometimes view people who don't share their ideologies. It might look at how intellectuals themselves are somewhat anti-intellectual by citing post-modernism (in order to show how right they are) or objecting to prejudice in others (with no concept of their own). Unfortunately, this article has become a lightning rod for people with a gripe about those non-intellectual, objectionable "others" whose concerns are deemed unworthy of consideration. 66.183.152.82 ( talk) 22:50, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
If the article 1971 Bangladesh atrocities is not biased, those events appear to deserve mention here. - KSchutte ( talk) 17:23, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
There is a current of "anti-intellectualism" that is in a sense very intellectual in the modern English meaning of the word, and this is a source for a lot of confusion and the accusation of double-speak and disingenuous propaganda levied to the part of the Italian Fascist movement in particular. It is centered around Giovanni Gentile's proclamation to be poised against "intellectualism", by which he can be quoted as not being opposed to "intelligence" or even art, culture or the sciences, but opposed to the abstract intellectualizing of life without applying such things in the immediate to reality. This mirrors his philosophy very well, and though Gentile was clearly a man of the pen, word, thinking, thought and ideas (even of & for schooling, academy and pedagogy and upholding the thinking man as a legitimate office in society in general so therefore "Intellectual" entirely in the modern English meaning of the word) he opposed abstraction and in his mind, the tense "intellectual" as opposed to "intelligence" (and this not just meaning 'being smart but not applying such facilities in activity', rather meaning quite the opposite because such would be pointless, which is a source of the accusation of double-speak and misunderstanding when the original Fascist claims of being pro-intelligence but anti-intellectual crop up).
This page would therefore really do well as a service to history if it had a section from the perspective of some of the major "intellectual" thinkers who promoted philosophy and the offices of science of every kind who claimed, and gave reason for their claim, that they were "anti-intellectual" but not in the way this article at all makes it out to be. Namely the ideas of Italian Fascist thinker Giovanni Gentile. 4.242.192.77 ( talk) 13:10, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
I tried to separate the "Further Reading" from the "References" page, but the change nested the former in the latter. I could use some programming help in correcting it. Timothy.n.lacy ( talk) 21:51, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
You can oppose the several unethical practices of colleges and universities and how the majority of society views them but still value learning and knowledge. 199.117.69.60 ( talk) 00:07, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
The Hofstadter work of the same name doesn't seem to been have been given sufficient weight and indeed the generic topic as distinct from the book article deserves an article of its own. A second comment is on language usage in contemporary culture of the last 30 years with such terms as wonk, geek, and nerd as well as mention of the fact that college enrollment is now majority female. Lycurgus ( talk) 08:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
The entire section, with the exception of the final sentence, is unsourced. The opening, topic sentence for the entire section (“Many on the left such as Noam Chomsky have claimed that the intellectual's status as a "professional thinker" requires the support of a member of the ruling class willing to fund them.”) has been fact tagged since February 2007. Once this sentence is removed, the whole rest of the section falls apart. I have deleted the section until someone comes out for some actual sourcing that documents (1) where Chomsky makes this claim, (2) who else agrees with this, and (3) how widespread this belief is. Tom (North Shoreman) ( talk) 23:28, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Sarah Palin frequently scoffed at the well educated members of american Society, treating them as not being "real Americans." When asked about her foreign travel, she responded that she, like real Americans and unlike the Liberal Elite, had to work and didn't have time to go around the world.
That sounds pretty anti-intellectual to me. Fusion7 ( talk) 20:11, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Some of the examples given with regard to politics, most notably
seem to miss the point of anti-intellectualism: The reason here is not that being an intellectual is (incorrectly) perceived as something bad, but that intellectuals tend to be dangerous to the establishment (which more often than not has degenerated into mutual back-scratching and has lost sight of the ostensible goals it should follow). The symptoms may be similar, but the cause is something very different.
(Note how, similarly, the "full belly" aims at reducing the risk of protests from the population, not unlike the Roman "panem et circenses"---and has nothing to do with the intellect.) 94.220.247.32 ( talk) 15:14, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Is there any source?-- MathFacts ( talk) 02:45, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
The article currently has the sentence: "...the intellectual’s objectivity and curiosity towards and about foreign countries are misrepresented as unpatriotic, lacking in definitive moral clarity — hence subversive of the homeland’s social norms, popular opinion, and nationalism."
First off, the sentence implies that "objectivity" and "curiosity...about foreign countries" are characteristics of intellectuals in general, which I'm not sure is the case. Second, depending on what you mean by "unpatriotic" and "lacking in definitive moral clarity", these may indeed be common characteristics of intellectuals. Rather than taking a stand on this, why not just change "misrepresented" to "represented"; maybe also replace the whole sentence by
Individuals who are perceived by some to have objectivity and curiosity about foreign countries may be perceived by anti-intellectuals as unpatriotic, and lacking in definitive moral clarity — hence subversive of the homeland’s social norms, popular opinion, and nationalism.
I'm about to make that change now, writing this section to serve as explanation -- feel free to delete this section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bayle Shanks ( talk • contribs) 06:11, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Shouldn't the Youth Culture Section be deleted? Anti-Intellectualism, as also described in the heading of the article, is the rejection of intellect and intellectuals.
Pure Disinterest in learning/academical themes etc., which is whats described in the youth culture section, has nothing to do with that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.185.239.218 ( talk) 00:09, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
The article is biased because it paints "anti-intellectuals" in a negative light. The term "anti-intellectual" is too subjective to be defined so precisely in the opening paragraph. The article needs to balance an intellectual view of anti-intellectuals with an anti-intellectual view of anti-intellectuals. Right now it does only the former. If you think this article is unbiased, it is probably because you consider yourself an intellectual, or are in some way sympathetic with them. There are enough comments on this talk page about the article's bias to justify a POV tag, but when I put one on someone immediately reverted it, I think using a computer program. Maybe I'll try again. 66.183.152.82 ( talk) 23:00, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Regarding "The article needs to balance an intellectual view of anti-intellectuals with an anti-intellectual view of anti-intellectuals," I added a paragraph by economist Thomas Sowell (an intellectual), who argues that distrust of intellectuals is often well-founded and ought not be dismissed as a knee-jerk phenomenon of the uneducated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.113.97.34 ( talk) 21:11, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
There is no explanation for why religion is anti-interlectual. The first paragraph seems to contradict the hypothesis and to could be added the intellectual study of religion as shown in the awards of doctorates in divinity and theology.
I have highlighted a piece of WP:SYN:
When doctrine stipulates definitive statements about natural and human history to be the provenance of sacred texts, and other matters of faith, intellectuals usually propose that such claims be substantiated via external scholarship.[citation needed] Therefore, a claim about the authenticity of the mediæval Shroud of Turin...
It is not really syn because the sentences are not sourced so at the moment it is just OR. But assuming that independent sources can be found for the content of the two sentences, the juxtaposition of these two sentence will be synful. Therefore whether or not sources are found they need to be rewritten. -- PBS ( talk) 03:37, 16 July 2010 (UTC)