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Although the article says clearly that "Anti-Qing sentiment is a sentiment principally held in China against the Qing Dynasty", the list of Famous anti-Qing persons shows at least two foreigners. Can these people be regarded as "anti-Qing people"? Or are they simply in there as examples of statements critical of the Qing? The use of language is really quite sloppy, and the article seems to be trying to do things: (1) Describe anti-Qing sentiment, (2) Express anti-Qing sentiment. Can we get a bit of objectivity here?
I also made edits removing Koxinga's exploits in driving the Dutch out of Taiwan. The sentence in question seemed to be highlighting Koxinga's glorious example in expanding the territory of China (a Chinese nationalist view), which has absolutely nothing to do with his anti-Qing activities. The sentence about Deng Xiaoping expressed criticism of seclusionist policies, but clearly stated that these started in mid-Ming. So this quote can't be construed as meaning that Deng Xiaoping was a "famous anti-Qing person".
The whole section of anti-Qing people is rather poorly conceived. Perhaps it should be left out altogether.
The statement that "Anti-Qing is the opposition to the Qing dynasty, Qing governments and not necessarily against Manchu people" is unsourced and seems to represent the views of the author on the meaning of words like "anti-Manchu" or "anti-Qing" rather than any historically attested distinction. I've flagged it as needing a citation.
Bathrobe ( talk) 02:22, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
This article is being subjected to continual new edits by the original author, edits of questionable content, while substantive issues raised concerning the content of the article are being ignored. There are several "Fact" tags on the page, which the editor is ignoring completely.
Unless these requests for citations are addressed, I suggest that these particular sections should be removed from the article without further notice.
Bathrobe ( talk) 02:15, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
I think we have reached a consensus
here on what should be the nature and structure of this article. I just made the structural modifications without adding any new content. The lead paragraph still needs to be re-written in light of what we discussed. I will do more in a few days once I'm done with a project that is taking most of my time in real life. --
Madalibi (
talk)
12:50, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
As proof that Koxinga was worshipped like a god, User Arilang has added links to sources on 鄭成功祠. I'm just wondering whether a 祠 is really proof of treatment as a "god" in the normal sense of the word. A 祠 is a kind of ancestral temple. Perhaps in the sense of ancestor worship a 祠 may be considered as housing a "god", but I'm just wondering whether it is totally accurate to refer to Koxinga as a "god" because of 鄭成功祠 (which I have, incidentally, visited).
The larger point is, of course, what relevance the worship of Koxinga as some kind of god has to this article. Perhaps it belongs at the page on Koxinga himself. Here it is right off the point of "anti-Qing sentiment".
Bathrobe ( talk) 06:23, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi Arilang. I think da 韃 in dalu 韃虜 is short for "Dada" 韃靼 ("Tartars"), and lu 虜 usually means "prisoner of war," but here it's a pejorative term to refer to "strangers." Scholars working in English usually translate "Da lu" as "Tartar caitiffs": Google that phrase and you will find plenty of scholarly references to Sun Yat-sen's words and what historians say about it. That should help you strengthen the references for the Sun Yat-sen section. According to Wordnet, "caitiff" means "a cowardly and despicable person." Cheers, Madalibi ( talk) 08:16, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
胡虜 or 韃虜 , the focus here is on 虜, Lin Yutang called it barbarian, I will stick to it, until you can prove him wrong. 虜 is a Han word that go back to thousands of years, 'western scholar' studied Han culture dated back to Marco Polo time, is only 700-800 years at the most, which versions of interpretation is up to you to pick, I shall stick to the ancient version. Regarding to your use of the term ethnic slur, if you happened to be one of the civilians living in Yangzhou during the Yangzhou massacre and a Manchu soldier is on the process of chopping off yor head, I doubt that you would call them 'Honey' or 'sweet heart'. Do you serious think that the Great Wall of China was built for fun? Arilang talk 11:27, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
I deleted the reference to Barbarism and Civilization - Mongols And Manchu Emperors in the lead paragraph, because it is unrelated to the content of the sentence it is attached to. That sentence says: "Anti-Qing sentiment (Chinese:反清, pingyin:fǎn qing) is a sentiment principally held in China against the Manchu ruling during Qing Dynasty, which was often resented for being foreign and barbaric." The reference I deleted actually makes the opposite point:
“ | In turn, the Ming were ousted by the Manchu (Tungusic descendants of the Ruzhen), who marked the beginning of the Qing dynasty. The Manchu were organized under banners or civil-military units distinguished by colored flags. Before 1644, their administrative units for conscription and taxation recruited Chinese and Mongols. By 1648, the "multi-ethnic army" of bannermen included less than 16 percent Manchu (see Naquin and Rawski, pp. 4–5). Like the Mongols, the Manchu adopted Chinese culture, allowing for a renaissance of ancient philosophy and literature (see Goulding). While the first emperor of China burned most of the books in the known world, the Manchu established the largest known library that included literature and philosophy of China's classical age (see Smith, p. 3; cf. Wilkinson, pp. 273–277, 485). Although censorship saw the destruction of many Ming books, the Complete Library of the Four Treasuries (1772–1782) resulted in seven sets of thirty-six thousand volumes (see Naquin and Rawski, p. 66). Whereas the Western world annihilated barbarians in a quest for civilization, the Eastern world accommodated them as co-constitutive elements of its yin-yang cosmology. | ” |
-- Madalibi ( talk) 03:23, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Such sentiment does exist in China; the fall of the Ming dynasty in China in some ways is comparable to the fall of the western Roman Empire. Although the Manchus did not destroy chinese civilization, they didn't let it advance either. The speed of technological advance was stagnant, especially compared to the Ming, Song, Tang, Han(four great eras of China). Obviously when the chinese have been leading the world for 2000 years, and suddenly discovered they were backwards after being ruled by the Manchu, they would have Manchu sentiment. Teeninvestor ( talk) 01:03, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
@Teeninvestor, thanks for your comment. Could you provide reference for this view point:"the fall of the Ming dynasty in China in some ways is comparable to the fall of the western Roman Empire." Is it you own conclusion or western scholar view point? If indeed this is western scholar view point then we can incorporate it into the article, with proper inline citing. Thanks. Arilang talk 02:50, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm just saying this because its not like this is made up; this actually does exist. By the way, I merely commented, did not incorporate it into article. Also, im pretty sure chinese sources exist in abundance and in english on this,not just western sources. You wouldn't consult only chinese sources on WWI on the chinese wikipedia, would you? Also some links to the belief in china that Qing Conquest of Ming and Mongol conquest of Song were comparable to German conquest of Roman Empire and Mongol destruction of the Abbasid Caliphate, though they may not be reliable resources< http://bbs.huanqiu.com/zongluntianxia/thread-104527-1-118.html><http://www.hanminzu.com/bbs/TopicOther.asp?t=5&BoardID=9&id=238675>. They are articles from hanminzu.com, a site in china that promotes traditional dress. One Intercept from a chinese author on this site shows: "日耳曼蛮族灭亡罗马帝国,五胡乱华,蒙古灭宋,满族灭明,都是文明的逆淘汰。印第安人的玛雅文明在西元9世纪也是突然走向败落的。就是说文明并不总是向前发展的,有时候可以突然倒退,数百年、甚至上千年后都难以恢复昔日的辉煌。" In whcih he compares the Yuan and Qing to the fall fo the Roman Empire. [[ Teeninvestor ( talk) 14:41, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
User Bathrobe has a point. Blogs are generally not accepted as a reliable source in wiki, so it is safer to quote .edu web site. Arilang talk 03:09, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
To be added to the article: By order of the Military Government, on the ___day,___month, ___year of Tien-yun, the Commander-in-Chief of the Chinese National Army proclaims the purposes and platform of the Military Government to the people of the nation:
Now the National Army has established the Military Government, which aims to cleanse away two hundred and sixty years of barbarous filth, restore our four-thousand-year-old fatherland, and plan for the welfare of the four hundred million people...
Now the men of Han(i.e., the Chinese) have raised a righteous (or patriotic) army to exterminate the northern barbarians...Besides the driving out of the barbarian dynasty and the restoration of China, it is necessary also to change the national polity and the people's livelihood. [1]
References
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A pro ming rebellion lead by muslims against the qing in northwest china
http://books.google.com/books?id=ciShtCrJijIC&pg=PA8#v=onepage&q&f=false
Purblio ( talk) 06:23, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
References
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