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Archive 1 |
In tracing the origins and usage of the phrase "Gaetulian lion", which appears to probably originate with the Aeneid. If anyone knows any more about it, any info would be appreciated, thanks. -- Stbalbach 02:16, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Gaetulian is referring to those who are from Gaetulia, an alternative name for the region in Africa surrounding Carthage. In this case i suspect it is referring to the armies of King Iarbas, the King whom Dido refused his hand in marriage after he granted her the land on whcih to build her city
While checking the article for some backstory to incorporate into a report for my Latin taskmaster, my eye caught the first paragraph. "[The Aeneid] is split into two "volumes" and 12 "books", with books 1-6 being the Odyssey and 7-12 the Iliad." Perhaps my understanding of classical literature is at fault, but I was under the impression that the Iliad and Odyssey were Homerian works dealing with the battle for Troy and Odysseus' voyage home, respectively, with only a minor mention of Aeneas in the Iliad. I find it unlikely that "Iliad" and "Odyssey" would be used for the titles of the two volumes, if only because of the nomenclature behind them (Iliad comes from Ilium, a name for Troy; Odyssey comes from its protagonist's name, Odysseus). Did I miss something? Ourai 23:04, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
In the context section of this article, it claims that the Greeks were respected by Romans, but after just finishing my class on Roman and Greek civilization, we were taught that the Romans certainly looked down apon the Greeks, while incorporating aspects of their society, the Romans did so with a sense of superiority (For example, most Romans were bi-lingual basically because they wanted to "prove" that they were "better" than the Greeks)
I think this should probably be changed as if one looks into the history of their culture, one would see that this line of the section isn't necessairly correct KurtFF8 23:15, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
You Grossly over-simplify. The Romans did not simply "look up to" or "look down on" the Greeks. Like all people, they were a little more complex than that. Consider this quote from Bertrand Russel, from the History of Western Philosophy, pp263-4:
-- Taitcha 04:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Why is the only part of the story told here from the "Dido section?" If we are going to have a story section at all, I think we should put in a spoiler warning and give a complete (though brief) synopsis of the whole story. If nothing else, we should have a spoiler warning because Dido's suicide (a significant plot detail if ever there was one) is given away. Anyone concur? -- N2lect2el 22:40, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I also don't know how to put in aspoiler warning, though I would like to see one. But I did go ahead and edit the story section; basically I added a synopsis of the last 6 books in a way that I thought was in line with the way the first six books had been treated. Please adjust it if you feel the need; I just thought it could use a synopsis of the last half of the book. Also, I divided the story section (rather primitively with bold and all caps...sorry I don't know how it is customarily done inside a level 2 heading.) I'll come back to do more later, I hope someone else can bring it in line with what you guys were looking at...but for now it's late, sorry if I put more plot line than is encyclopedic, or if my links don't work. Matveiko 09:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
This old chestnut about the structure of the Aeneid is alluded to several times in this article. It's in the WP:LEAD of the article, despite the fact that it's nowhere explained, justified, or defended below the fold. I'd like to point out that the Odyssey may have a "wandering theme," but that the majority of it is set on Ithaca. Granted there are the Iliadic battle scenes in the Aeneid's second half that I'm not saying are derived from the Slaying of the Suitors, but Virgil's overall plot is better mapped by the Odyssey simply than by this old cliché. Wareh 03:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I have started this section off as it is a very prominent theme in the poem that needs to be addressed. The section needs to be expanded, possibly with ideas of Virgil's that are not linked with previous epics. Phasler90 11:53, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I just posted it... obviously it needs some help gramatically and with the missing sections. If you want to add to it PLEASE keep it as literal a translation as possible, especially in the AP parts. What would be REALLY sweet is to place the latin text in a column right next to it...
For the love of Jove, if you're going to use Fitzgerald's translation, please don't post it as though it were prose instead of poetry. It may take up more space, but I think that putting it in paragraph form is just hugely misleading and wrong. The Aeniad is a POEM, not a novel. Corbmobile 21:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
In general, I opine that 'In-your-face' banner editor-to-editor messages like this
A) should not be top located, at the very least,
B) are generally better in the Talk if practicable ('Expert', 'References', etc. where an autocategory draws patrolling editors to the need), and
C) at the very least, need a clearly delineated related talk page section that details the needs, perferably bulleted or numbered paragraphs, that can serve to guide other editors into the thought chain that resulted in the evaluation and judgement espoused by the banner message, and
D) and last, but most importantly, some datestamp to guide the browsing editor into the group think, and enable identification of stale banners, hopefully as completed, or stale. (e.g. Consider mergeto/mergefrom tags left for long periods—I've seen such go well past fifteen months of subsequent edits sans little if any discussion, which are a time-consuming pain to back track until the initial application.
In this case, the talk discusses various technical issues from 2003 onwards, the completion of any of which may satisfy the original gripe/request by the posting editor. I can't tell, so suggest watcher-contributors of this article create such a section, or delete the tag. Individual 'To-Do' items, can be struck through and signed off in such a tabulation when completed keeping the matter clear to all.
Such co-ordinative measures are only considerate of the time for the rest of us, and would be much appreciated! Thanks // Fra nkB 15:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't know under what header to comment this, but shouldn't there be a spoiler warning at the beginning of the story in this article? Just to keep in line with the standard WP layout, I mean. / [Tom] Maoxx 11:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, already being discussed I see. Apologize. / Tom Maoxx 11:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that in the influence section of the Aeneid article, it might make sense to incorporate at least one paragraph on the reception of the Aeneid--I would be willing to write that up. Another useful gauge of its influence might be Tennyson's "To Virgil."
What do people think? -- Gsobolski
Please do. I am sure that it will be an excellent addition to the article. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:19, 2004 Nov 13 (UTC)
Dante was heavily influenced by Virgil and adapts many lines from the Aeneid. FribbusFrax 07:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Note that "Æneid" is a mediaevalism. Virgil always spelt it "AENEID" since the Romans of his time only used separate upper case letters. I am inclined to change the article back to the Aeneid spelling. -- Derek Ross | Talk
Actually, Æ was a common way of representing the Latin diphthong by the Romans. It is in no way medieval. And the answer to your question is neither, because, as I noted above, Aeneid was not the actual title given by Vergil, and so it was not a word spoken (or written) in classical Latin. -- 71.245.176.208 06:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Moved the following (apparently from someone at 151.204.81.172) from the article to here:
The last is closest to the pronunciation used by the Romans. I-neigh'-id would be even closer. The first two are Anglified. -- Derek Ross 06:11 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)
However, uh-nee'-id is the most common among all American Latin (student|teacher)s I've met (I'm a member of the NJCL and have met quite a few) Evanbro 03:03, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)
Maybe we should change the first paragraph to this?
— Simetrical ( talk) 03:57, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, decided to be bold. Edited. — Simetrical ( talk) 06:48, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It would be better as this...
...since there is only one Latin pronunciation but at least three common English variants. The Latin pronunciation is arguably the correct one, is identical to one of the English pronunciations and is certainly the original one. Those are additional reasons why I think that the Latin pronunciation should come first. .-- Derek Ross | Talk 14:01, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)
The word is not normally pronounced in English as in Latin. Of course, some academic types might pronounce it that way, but it's not the normal convention. I don't know much about Latin, so I'll take your word that its pronunciation hasn't shifted in ecclesiastical Latin or the like. Finally, the English pronunciation should come first, since this is the English Wikipedia—in the Latin version of this article, of course, the Latin pronunciation would come first (and probably be the only one listed). — Simetrical ( talk) 08:31, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) , According to Dictionary.com, the only standard English pronunciation of Aeneid has the accent on the second syllable. — Simetrical ( talk) 08:49, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Technically, there is not a Latin pronunciation, because the word 'Aeneid' did not exist in classical Latin, as it was not the title of the poem as recognized by the Romans. I've heard that Vergil titled his poem in Greek - Αινεις, or Aineis with Roman letters, and consequently its pronunciation would not follow typical Latin rules. I'll try to find an online source. -- 71.245.176.208 06:26, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
This otherwise excellent/complete article needs to address the crucial propaganda aspect to the Aeneid. The Aeneid#Context section starts to get at it with the moral reform, lineage, prophecy, nationalism etc. But the article is missing a very large part of the field: the study of whether or not the Aeneid was pro-Augustus or anti-Augustus propaganda. Historiography would be a great addition--how perceptions of the Aeneid's slant changed over time, even recently. Unfortunately, I am not qualified to write on this topic.
In addition, the following is incorrect: "the sudden return of prosperity and peace after a generation of chaos had badly eroded traditional social roles and cultural norms. In reaction, the emperor Augustus was trying to re-introduce traditional Roman moral values" --this view was perpetrated by Augustus, to be taken with a grain of salt.
Speaking of NPOV, this sentence needs to be fixed: "[John Dryden's translation] is thought to be one of the very few examples of a poetic translation that retains the power and flow of the original in a new language, and it is often regarded as a classic in its own right" -- gwc 00:25, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
It does no service to an article to remove a true if unverified statement; somebody just needs to do the work of providing documentation, which I assure you exists in bounty, and write the sentence without the passive: something like "Poets ranging from So-and-So to So-and-So, as well as critics such as Blah-Blah and Blah-Blah, have regarded Dryden's translation as one of the few" etc.
Nor is this article "excellent" and "complete." It's good and useful, though. Cynwolfe ( talk) 00:02, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Attention to all those who seek a translation of this epic online. Most translations you will find are the same. They are not in prose, and have a rhyme scheme. That is ludicrous! It should only have those if it is in Latin, it is the only way they would work. In English you can't possibly have it in poetic form with rhyme scheme without drastically changing the context and vocabulary. Also most translatios, in the first line, uses "arms" for Arma it should be "wars." Anyone taking First Year Latin would know that. Thanks to the Haverhill High School Latin/English teachers for being aware of these things and teaching it to us. -- Anonymous contributor
Translations can and will never do justice to the Aeneid nor any other work. As for your complaint on the first line, if you wanted to be overtly correct, "wars" would work. But if you've read the Aeneid, you'll know that many words don't make sense per se. Take, for instance, the use of tecta, literally "rooves," to mean "houses." It's a figure of speech known as synecdoche, and it's what poets do. As any first year Latin student would know, literally, yes, it's "wars," but, as any student of Vergil would know, such a literal translation would do little justice to Vergil's mastery of the language. Thus, any translation I'll like will begin "I sing of arms and of the man." -- Aekarn 02:33, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think 'wars' is ever the most natural translation of 'arma'. Usually it should be translated (literally) as 'arms', with 'wars' a possible alternate meaning by synecdoche -- 172.142.147.231 18:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Arms is synecdochal for war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.106.71 ( talk) 23:36, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
It would be nice to know exactly where to find the phrase, "Rise up from my bones, avenging spirit". I don't even know which translation it is from; Perseus turns up nothing. Does anyone know the reference? Siva 23:16, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
The 'History' section seems to be completely lacking in references, it's written rather subjectively so I think it needs a clean up and references to sources. There is also no date for when the Aeneid might have been written, which is a glaring omission. --
Lyndabynda (
talk)
13:13, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
The article states under the summary of Books 1-6 that the poem keeps in the style of Homeric epics. However, I believe that a disparity between this and the Iliad or the Odyssey is that the muse is invoked a bit later, and instead Vergil's own place as the narrator ("rather than a medium through which the poem is channeled", says Sparknotes) is emphasized? This is open to interpretation and your own opinion; is it worth noting in the article? Aar ► 14:16, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
"Nearly the entirety of the Aeneid is devoted to the theme of conflict."
Conflict is not the main theme of the Aeneid. Far more profound and central to Virgil's purpose of writing it are themes of duty, humanity, justice and fate. While some of these are touched upon, lightly, they are not given sufficient explanation. Furthermore, important things like the shield of Aeneas, the death of Pallas, procession of unborn and the Nisus and Euryalus episode are omitted. These deserve attention and are necessary when explaining there respective theme. Stating that Aeneas is like Odysseus book 1-6 and Achilles book 7-12 is simplistic and definitely not what Virgil was trying to portray. While it is true that book 1-6 has veins of The Odyssey and 7-12 of the Illiad the character of Aeneas is nothing like Achilles or Odysseus. Virgil was creating a proto-Roman, stoic, pious, just. Stating he is like one or the other or both is totally undermining the whole point of the book.
Someone with sufficient time and knowledge needs to change this small and inaccurate segment into something that is comprehensive and complete. In the meantime maybe it should be removed. Nimzoh ( talk) 22:49, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
BBC Radio 4's In Our Time is a 45 minute discussion programme about the history of ideas, with three eminent academics in their field, hosted by Melvyn Bragg. Each edition deals with one subject from one of the following fields: philosophy, science, religion, culture and historical events. It is akin to a seminar. The entire archive going back to 1998 is now available online in perpetuity.
An edition about The Aeneid was broadcast with Edith Hall, Leverhulme Professor of Greek Cultural History, Durham University; Philip Hardie, Corpus Christi Professor of Latin at the University of Oxford; Catharine Edwards, Senior Lecturer in Classics and Ancient History, Birkbeck College, University of London.
You can listen to the programme on this link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p003k9c1. Would you be able to include this as an external link?-- Herk1955 ( talk) 10:44, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Since there was no discussion or concensus written on this article's talk page in accordance with WP:ERA, I propose a reversion of the date formats from BCE/CE to BC/AD referring to the most recent edit of this article containing BC/AD only. Please voice your objections and reasons for this not happening. 78.146.132.102 ( talk) 19:33, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
Hi everyone, I'd like to see a little more hat-tipping to other theories about the gates of ivory and horn, which constitute an enigmatic and interesting part of the Aeneid. There are plenty of other theories about the passage – that Aeneas' time in the underworld was a false dream, that Aeneas himself was not a true member of the underworld during his time there, or that it was simply necessary for him to leave that way in order to come back out again. It would be nice to at least couch the posing of the questions about the passage in language that admits the ambiguity and uncertainty which the world of Vergilian scholarship expresses on this passage. Mjl0509 05:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Most scholars consider the issue of the gates well and truly dead. The best nail in the coffin comes from D. West, "The Bough and the gate", Oxford readings in Vergil's Aeneid, Ed. S. J. Harrison (1990) 129.67.119.242 ( talk) 19:51, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
This needs work and references, it seems to be mostly opinion at the moment. michaelCurtis talk+ contributions 14:20, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The plot summary does not mention the episode where Venus gets a new set of arms for Aeneas from Vulcan. Given its popularity in the visual arts, it might be worth mentioning. It is found in book VIII, but I don't know where exactly it would fit into the narrative, so I can't add it myself. Maybe someone more familiar with the work can do it.— Austriacus ( talk) 22:47, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
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Citing the Fagles translation, this articles states that "It is composed of 9,896 lines in dactylic hexameter". I have that translation (the audio book, ISBN 0-14-305902-5), and it lists the following counts for each book:
1 908 2 998 3 829 4 876 5 972 6 1039 7 948 8 858 9 923 10 1079 11 1068 12 1113
That adds up to a total of 11611. Which one is right? — Sebastian 01:52, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
I added categories and WikiProject templates to Parallels between Virgil's Aeneid and Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, but I oppose any merger. Any advice?-- DThomsen8 ( talk) 17:23, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
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Shouldn't the publication date be 1469, since a book is only considered "published" when it's been printed? -- 110.22.20.51 ( talk) 10:16, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
Why is the Latin title "Aeneis" but the English title "Aeneid" (while the character is named Aeneas)? This is not explained in the text nor are there any sources for the spellings. Rmhermen ( talk) 22:34, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
How are we translating the first line of the Aeneid? 'Arma virumque cano' was translated as 'I sing of arms and of a man' in the article, until it was changed to 'Of arms and the man I sing' recently without explanation. Do we want to follow the original word order, or go to a more typical SVO word order? Also, it seems to me that 'virum' is accusative and not genitive, but is occasionally translated in a genitive manner. Should the article favour one particular translation throughout? ThomasBur ( talk) 01:48, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
What is meant by posthumous in Delahoyde & Hughes > Mythology > VIRGIL'S AENEID, Wikidata Q597236?
The ostensible purpose of Virgil's Aeneid is to express Rome's national greatness and destiny by means of a story concerning "her" legendary origin. Virgil worked at it from 30 bce until his death in 19 bce, and the epic was virtually complete, with some lines left unfinished, when he decided to spend three more years on revision. He set out on a voyage to Greece in order to experience local color for his textual modifications. He contracted a fever immediately, returned to Italy, and died, leaving instructions that the Aeneid should be burnt. But Augustus countermanded this and the work was published posthumously.
Possibly related:
Avindra talk 17:35, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 12 January 2023 and 26 April 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ccsallk2022 ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Ccsallk2022 ( talk) 02:34, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
Is it just me, or does this article seem to take a bias leaning toward the fact that the teaching of the Latin language and Latin literature is no longer practiced? Should I pore through the whole thing to assure NPOV or am I being picky (and defensive, as a Latin student)? Ed Cormany 06:07 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)
It's just you. The article implies -- mistakenly, I believe -- that the Aeneid is no longer required reading for Latin students but I can't see that it anywhere implies that Latin is no longer taught. -- Derek Ross 06:20 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Glad to hear it. I always enjoyed Latin poets, although I was too lazy to do really well in my Latin class. Vergil was enjoyable but I particularly liked Ovid (and still do). --
Derek Ross
Ovid has a certain flair to him. My favorite part thus far is in Pyramus and Thisbe where he compares dying Pyramus to broken plumbing. Evanbro 03:03, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)