This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
current talk page.
Nobody expressed support for any inclusion despite weeks of filibustering by you. Diffs or it never happened. And even if there was a momentary peep of support from someone who wasn't otherwise participating in the discussion, your proposed text was overwhelmingly rejected for the reasons I mentioned above.
Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS)(talk)(contribs)20:59, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
I think it's important enough to include. If you get enough protesters, the police can't afford to do anything about it. That's important to know. It seems to be related to about 1m00s of the
http://vimeo.com/30778727 video someone else wanted to include. How do people feel about the both of them together, as co-sources?
Dualus (
talk)
00:05, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Interesting. Not related to the article subject. User submitted video contains copyright material and cannot be used on Wikipedia.--
Amadscientist (
talk)
05:04, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
501(c)3
I deleted this from the intro. Can anyone verify it?
In late October, Occupy Wall Street registered for 501(c)(3) status, with the
Alliance for Global Justice, a D.C.-based grassroots organization, serving as the movement's fiscal sponsor."(ref>"Money Donated To Occupy Wall Street Brings Much Needed Supplies And Tension" by Lila Shapiro. The Huffington Post. October 24, 2011.</ref>
I'm guessing it's probably a prank; just something some smart-ass said to a reporter. We have reliable sources saying the protesters are encouraging that sort of thing, which doesn't make it any easier to edit this article.
Dualus (
talk)
00:47, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Nope. The article does not. Kristoff's opinion piece, already a mark against making it a RS, argues that OWS's feeling of inequality is justified. He then uses the IMF report to show why he agrees with OWS. That's it, folks. There is no reporting - a rare thing in opinion pieces anyhow - of OWS acknowledging the IMF report in any way. Hence no real connection. The editors are trying to use synthesis in this case, and really need to get with the program: we are not a soapbox.
The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (
talk)
02:50, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
And I would draw attention to
this change which others including myself do not agree with. There may be portions of that revert which took out questionable material, but it's not appropriate to revert wholesale when some of the changes were well-sourced.
Be——Critical01:28, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
I've reinserted it. Blanking entire well-sourced sections is not appropriate, especially when it's derectly pertinent to the topic.
Night Ranger (
talk)
02:21, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Be Critical did some forum shopping to settle a content dispute. Besides being slapped down for using the wrong forum, he didn't get all that
|much love: You're relying on primary sources outside the topic. Start with the OWS secondary sources you are using first and then show how the secondary sources tie directly into the primary ones. Viriditas (talk) 02:45, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Sourced material only goes into the article if there is a consensus that it is relevant and correctly weighted. The fact that it is sourced is a necessary criteria for inclusion, but not a sufficient one.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:47, 29 October 2011 (UTC)The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (
talk)
03:20, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Anonymous has a misunderstanding of OR and SYNTH. I'll explain it once, but I'm not sure that will be enough: When reliable secondary source 1 makes it clear that certain information in reliable source 2 is relevant to the subject of the article, one can use the second source. At any rate, the sources used in the removed text discuss the subject of this article and directly related issues, and they are RS for this article. In addition, if multiple sources support the same text, and you feel one is RS and one is not, that's not reason to remove the text. Please stop taking out this extremely well sourced material.
Be——Critical03:40, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
That is oblique. Is "reliable secondary source 12" the Kristoff article? (An opinion piece, not a RS in any case expect to say something like "Kristoff agrees with OWS because...") That stool is on two legs. If not, then what the hell is it number 1?
The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (
talk)
03:58, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Geez, would "you please be specific" and throw a dog a bone? What is behind the door labeled "reliable secondary source 1"? And what is it supposed to make clear, beyond the ever so vague "certain information"? I'm done guessing. I imagine I'll then need to repeat a well explained objection.
The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (
talk)
04:10, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
The participants' slogan "
We are the 99%" refers to
income inequality in the U.S. between the wealthiest 1% which controls about 40% of the total wealth of the country, and the rest of the population.
Keep getting edited out. I've inserted the information in the body of the article now,
[7] and I think this statistic is absolutely central to the movement. So I'm not sure why others don't think it should go in the lead.
Be——Critical
The forty percent is TMI - read too wonkish - for the lead, and without a link showing OWS working the 40% ratio as much as 99%, this is
WP:OR. Which is probably the case, when I googled "occupy wall street 40%" I found how "absolutely central" the statistic is not to the movement.
The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (
talk)
02:40, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
The 40% isn't original research - it's how much the 1% owns. All that number does is clarify what "the 99%" is referring to, in a way that the lead doesn't now.--~
TPW02:48, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Until you have refs showing a high profile connection for OWS and that stat, like them really using it a lot and vocally, it doesn't matter that it is true, it's not that connected to OWS.
The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (
talk)
02:40, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
I just did show that. However, it's the share of growth that may be more emphasized. If you prefer that statistic it can be inserted.
Be——Critical04:57, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
We'll keep "basic backround" out of the lead, all the same. That's why it's called the lead. Now, when you can show not OWS putting the 40% figure out there - you know, in the foreground - then we can talk.
The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (
talk)
05:09, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Stop the officious tone. You and I both know that this is a basic statistic. Now, it may be that sources favor income growth inequality, over percentage of wealth, but that's a tweak. I'll get to the sources tomorrow when I have more time. And we will include it in the lead, since the lead summarizes the most important points of the article, and this is in fact the most important point as it's the motivation for the movement.
Be——Critical05:29, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
If you're done barking orders... I indeed know it's a basic statistic - of the background variety, as it were and as you pointed out. Good luck with finding the sources, the one you've come up with so far just didn't cut it. 05:35, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Per the background section, I propose text something like this for the lead:
The participants' slogan "
We are the 99%" refers to the
difference in the U.S. between the wealthiest 1% whose incomes have increased by 275% since 1979, and the bottom 90% whose incomes have shrunk.
The protesters' slogan "
We are the 99%," refers to
income inequality in the United States between the wealthiest 1%, who control about 40% of the total wealth of the country and whose incomes have increased by 275% since 1979, and the bottom 90% whose inflation-adjusted incomes have declined.
I'm sure this is true, but without secondary sources showing that these facts are very well known and play a large part in OWS's interior dialogues, it's TMI for the lead and the background section.
The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (
talk)
00:58, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. What exactly do you mean by saying the blog post is "more or less reliable", and why do you say the Fox piece is "obviously copied from the Wikipedia article"? And are you suggesting that the blog post is somehow a more reliable source than the Fox piece that quotes it?
I noticed
some deletions being made without being discussed here on talk. I generally reserve the right to revert such deletions when there is no indication that excerpted material isn't valid as
fair use, or if several sources are removed, or there are no specific issues which would tend to support deletion. The suggestion to replace in summary style was spot-on.
Dualus (
talk)
04:12, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
However, they were again deleted as a copyvio, even after a paraphrase. This is the part where we get to find the supreme court case about paraphrasing.
Dualus (
talk)
04:14, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Also included are demands for: (2) overturning the Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission case, "even if it requires a
constitutional amendment"; (3) elimination of private contributions to politicians (see 1); (4)
Term limits for the House of Representatives to no more than four two-year terms; two six-year terms for the Senate; (5) complete reformation of the
United States Tax Code into a
progressive, graduated income tax by "eliminating loopholes, unfair tax breaks, exemptions and deductions,
subsidies (e.g. oil, gas and farm) and ending all other methods of evading taxes."
The suggested grievances continue: (12) recalling military personnel at non-essential bases; refocusing national defense goals to address 21st century threats such as terrorism; and limiting the large scale deployment of the
military–industrial complex; (13) reforming
public education by, "mandating new educational goals to train the American public to perform jobs in a 21st century economy, particularly in the areas of technology and green energy. Eliminating tenure and paying our teachers a competitive salary"; (14) reducing
outsourcing by business tax incentives to locate and hire locally.
Should anyone have any questions about whether the CBS Philadelphia tag should be in the ELs, here are excerpts from
their first tagged story:
"...plans are found in a document posted online by an “
Occupy Wall Street” working group, titled “The 99 Percent Declaration.” The document proposes a National General Assembly to be held in Philadelphia starting on July 4th, 2012 and running through next October.
The proposal says the Assembly would operate similarly to the original “
Committees of Correspondence” — the Founding Fathers who met in Philadelphia prior to what the group refers to as “the first American Revolution.” It was not immediately clear if such a gathering will actually take place, but city officials are aware of the proposal and Mayor Nutter says he wants to talk about it with the organizers.
“I understand national Occupy would want to be in Philadelphia — this is birthplace of freedom, liberty, and democracy for the United States of America — so I look forward to a conversation,” Nutter told KYW Newsradio. “We need to better understand what it is they want to do, where and what it’s all about. But I welcome the discussion.” Nutter says he would like to maintain the same open dialogue with the national organizers as he has with the local group now encamped on
Dilworth Plaza."(ref>CBS News (October 19, 2011)
"‘Occupy’ May Hold National Assembly In Philadelphia"CBS Philadelphia</ref>
I removed the "Citation needed" tags as the information is in the references used. It is not nessecarry to support each sentence just the information itself. The references used at the end of the full claim does contain the information.--
Amadscientist (
talk)
00:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Notability
Per
WP:WEB, the document has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose sources are independent of the site itself including such works as are listed in many of the article's references.
Dualus (
talk)
00:46, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
"Wall Street" is two words. Why do you say that it is not independently notable? The following non-trivial published works are independent of the site itself, and most of them meet the reliable source criteria for
secondary sources:
Why not? You didn't respond for over an hour to my question above. You did try to canvass someone with whom you have had no interactions independent of me
[8] and try to delete questions concerning this article from your talk page
[9][10]. Do you believe your actions are trying to improve the encyclopedia, or are you attempting to be retributive because of your opinion of my opinions?
Dualus (
talk)
02:26, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
WP:NPOV requires that we cover both sides of controversies. I am trying to find funds both for and against the protester's goals. Why is that not completely appropriate for a movement based in the financial district?
Dualus (
talk)
16:14, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
WP NPOV doesn't require you to manufacture a topic and then cover "both sides" of it, or whatever the hell it is you think you're doing. Actually NOR forbids you from manufacturing a topic in the first place. As I said, that's not the kind of material that goes in WP articles. Period.
Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS)(talk)(contribs)16:55, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Are you saying I'm manufacturing the afscme.org story cited above? Or am I looking for a neutral way to include it?
Dualus (
talk)
17:53, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
It can never be included. You need some RS's to make the case for the connection. Since the article is from 2010, the article itself cannot make the connection, only you can (
which is OR).
Arzel (
talk)
18:03, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
I'd oppose it, too much of a
WP:COATRACK for the quote. The article is a record of the protest, not publicity for the protests or their messages.
SDY (
talk)
22:01, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
The photo is the sign. Basically, if we want to include text, we should include text. Photos of text are just silly.
SDY (
talk)
23:49, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
That link doesn't work. Honestly, the "week by week coverage" is kind of dubious anyway, per
WP:NOTNEWS,
WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE, and a couple of other policies. If we're going to have six weeks, OK, but if we go into twenty weeks, we're going to have to start condensing some of that so having an image gallery is problematic.
SDY (
talk)
17:09, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Link should work now. Not sure what the problem was. Regarding the week by week coverage, I agree, if too many weeks go by we will have to come up with a different structure and no doubt we will have to weed images at that time.--
Nowa (
talk)
18:43, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Why include this? Seems very much pushing the point of view of the protester and is in no way encyclopedic or neutral. Thoughts Dualus?--
Amadscientist (
talk)
05:55, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
It's better for the Timeline article. There should be some bit about the journalists being fired as a significant moment, along with the photo. --DavidShankbone17:37, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Good idea. I posted a similar query on the Timeline talk page. And also good idea on the journalist firings. Let me draft something up and we can put below for vetting--
Nowa (
talk)
18:53, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
I find the protester's English composition skills and focus notable. I think this should be in the main article.
Dualus (
talk)
21:43, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Please explain in detail how her "English composition skills and focus" apply to Wikipedia guidelines for notability. It may be significant to her that she was fired and may be notable for the time line but would be undue weight to the article as being "sensational" and attempting to create more than an employee being terminated for cause. Since this deals with subjects of ethics, and a living person, this will probably be a BLP concern.--
Amadscientist (
talk)
08:25, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
"I find the protester's English composition skills and focus notable" is a comment which illustrates the very problematic editing, including the tendency to bog the Talk page down with utterly irrelevant considerations, that we're seeing at this page.
Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS)(talk)(contribs)15:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Notability has nothing whatsoever to do with your opinion. And generally speaking, notability never has anything to do with anyone's opinion about anybody else's "English composition skills and focus". In short, your previous comment is utterly irrelevant to this article and fairly nonsensical.
Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS)(talk)(contribs)16:57, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
This is not about my opinion. Several news outlets have found the person, sign, and events surrounding both notable. Have you tried searching?
Dualus (
talk)
17:55, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
It has been suggested on the AfD page for this article that we clean up the references on the current page. Anyone else interested in joining in? My thought is to first identify references that aren't suitable, post them here, see if we can find alternate suitable references, and then replace. Sound good?--
Nowa (
talk)
22:36, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Well, since a moderator wasn't called for, I thought I would get started. I'll try to find reliable secondary sources to replace primary source and private blog I deleted.--
Nowa (
talk)
00:33, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Frankly, I think those all look pretty bad, like they were made in Excel. The point of the graph is to accentuate the "99%/1%" divide, and so I am replacing it. Please feel free to insert any graph you think would work better.
Dualus (
talk)
05:26, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Clean up does not require posting new references for others to approve. Editors are not required to adhere to any request to show references on talk page first. If you dispute them you may delete them and leave an edit summary. Talk page discussions should be a natural discussion that commences as needed.--
Amadscientist (
talk)
11:30, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Constitutional ammendment
Dualus does not have consensus for this section to be included in the article. If anyone else supports this being included, please say so.
I intend to replace the section after
[14] and
[15] are included. I would like to know what problems people see with inclusion. Do you understand that grievance (2) asks for
[16]?
Dualus (
talk)
04:37, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Documents introduced into the
United States Senate are notable. However, we are discouraged from creating or referencing documents such as "S.J.Res. ____" because it's never clear how many underlines there are.
Dualus (
talk)
18:08, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Copyvios
If the large amounts of quoting go back in, I will report the person putting those large tracks of quoting for
WP:COPYVIO. Summarise it in Wikipedia's summary style.--
LauraHale (
talk)
04:17, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
How do you define "large amounts"? As far as I can tell, the standard of inclusion for determining whether a paraphrase is fair use is:
"The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent." Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47, 52 (1919). "One may not counsel or advise others to violate the law as it stands. Words are not only the keys of persuasion, but the triggers of action, and those which have no purport but to counsel the violation of law cannot by any latitude of interpretation be a part of that public opinion which is the final source of government in a democratic state." Masses Publishing Co. v. Patten, 244 F. 535, 545 (S.D.N.Y. 1917)(Hand, J.).
Per
Fair use, the use is transformative because redundant and subordinate passages have been deleted for educational and public policy communications purposes. The use is minimal because it is only five paragraphs from twenty sections. The factual content in the quoted passages copied and cited is trimmed to support encyclopedic information. Only selected relatively insubstantial passages are quoted. Most importantly, there is no market to be harmed for this document which is given away free on the internet. If there are any reasons that my paraphrase above does not meet that standard of inclusion, please tell me them.
Dualus (
talk)
05:09, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Go ahead...put it all back in and see how quickly it is speedy deleted with the correct tag placed. Fair Use case law is not the entirety of what must be met...you have to comply with all Wikipedia policy in that regard for use. As a text document you can only use small "snippets" and even then it depends on how it is used and why. Paraphasing is the policy. Text must be original and not copy pasted.--
Amadscientist (
talk)
08:51, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Not sure if you are asking about the Fair Use explanation above or something else. As I stated, Wikipedia has an Manuel of Style guideline for fair use that must be adhered to, but unclear if you are referring to other information on this talk page.--
Amadscientist (
talk)
00:14, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
The Brookings Group reference makes the point the the authors of the 99 Percent Declaration is an organization called "The Demands Working Group" and this group is not the same as Occupy Wall Street.
"The General Assembly of the New York City occupation has explicitly denied the Demands Working Group’s claim to speak on behalf of the movement."
Several other references we have for this article also use the term "Demands Working Group" separately from "Occupy Wall Street". Should we rely on these sources to clarify that point in the article? Does "Demands Working Group" warrant it's own article?--
Nowa (
talk)
01:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Take it to an ANI. If the readers of this talk page would simply view the history, it is clear the "author" (which I use loosely as we have no proof this was him to begin with..but probably) never made any such post. It was just Dualus with more copy paste.--
Amadscientist (
talk)
05:24, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Somebody inserting a completely uncorroborated personal message to readers into the article space in a (possibly fictitious) attempt to complain about the treatment he's received by OWS? What would you call that, if not "spam"? Got a better word?
Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS)(talk)(contribs)17:01, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
It's what we get on talk pages all the time, and in this case a communication from an author of the subject of the article should not be blanked from the article talk page because no actual BLP violations have been associated with any particular passages of the message.
Dualus (
talk)
17:12, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
It wasn't deleted from the talk page. The author inserted it into the article space, obviously caring as little for policy as you do. You were the one who decided (wrongly) that it should be posted on the talk page. It has no more bearing on improving the article than my own personal thoughts about OWS.
Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS)(talk)(contribs)17:19, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.[3] Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be
blocked from editing.--
Amadscientist (
talk)
07:40, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Are you trying to suggest that the message from Michael Pollok which you have deleted eight times from various locations is somehow a BLP violation? If so, how so?
Dualus (
talk)
07:43, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I'm not seeing the BLPVIO either. Perhaps you can explain how it violates BLP. Please can neither of you add or remove that section until we have a consensus on this. But for the section to remain deleted there has to be consensus that this is a BLP vio and I'm not seeing it right now.
SpartazHumbug!07:52, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Spartaz, I think it is unfortunate that you do not see the inclusion of information about a living person, not yet confirmed to be written by the actual person in question as a BLP issue. This was placed on the article itself and the continued use by Dualus is a clear manipulation of an unreferenced claim and are indeed contentious material. If the editor wishes to make this claim himself here it wouldn't be, but with another editor doing so...it is.--
Amadscientist (
talk)
07:57, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Please explain why it is violates BLP by reference to the harm that this posting makes to a living person and by indicating exactly what section of BLP it violates.
SpartazHumbug!08:02, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
A claim was made on the article by a new user that could well be an SPA. The editor announced that he was the author of the document and used the name of a real person with no references to back up either the claim that the person authored the document or that he was indeed the person. Dulaus took the Soap Box and ran with it here, again, with no proof the editor is indeed this author..or that the person indeed wrote the document.--
Amadscientist (
talk)
08:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
That's not a BLPVIO but they are valid reasons to depreciate the content. We certainly cannot use an unverified posting as any kind of source for article content but its incorrect to remove it or call it a BLPVIO. Its simply reasons to note the content on the talk page, reach a quick consensus to not use it and move on.
SpartazHumbug!08:15, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
You asked me another question I have not yet answered. "Harm" can indeed come to the reputation of the subject if the claim is not referenced to show verifiability and accuracy. The real person could see his reputation smeared and his work in his field effected. The claim also refers to other parties that well may be effected in major ways. The content makes claims without references about the NYC GA, specifically that "the facilitators" removed his comments from minutes, and that is an accusation without any source to prove it.--
Amadscientist (
talk)
08:27, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Further reading shows more accusations about 3 specific people named with no references. This is indeed a BLP issue and violation.--
Amadscientist (
talk)
08:32, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Criticism and praise[22]: Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone.
The information was not originally presented in a responsible, conservative or disinterested tone, or repeated in that manner. It was copy pasted simply to repeat the accusations and information.
Challenged or likely to be challenged[23]: Wikipedia's sourcing policy, Verifiability, says that all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation; material not meeting this standard may be removed. This policy extends that principle, adding that contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately and without discussion. This applies whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable, and whether it is in a biography or in some other article.
No references of any kind were used when this was placed in the article and repeated again on the talk page.
Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material[24]: Remove immediately any contentious material about a living person that is unsourced or poorly sourced; that is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see No original research); that relies on self-published sources, unless written by the subject of the BLP (see below); or that relies on sources that fail in some other way to meet Verifiability standards.
This constitutes original research and is not sourced at all. Returning the material is a violation of this section after my removal of it.
Avoid gossip and feedback loops[25]: Avoid repeating gossip. Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject. Be wary of sources that use weasel words and that attribute material to anonymous sources.
The user that placed the material is an anonymous source and we cannot divulge who it actually is or is not, since the user used a username and not a real name and is simply a new Wikipedia user, it fails as a reliable source and should not be repeated even on the article talk page.
Using the subject as a self-published source[26]:Living persons may publish material about themselves, such as through press releases or personal websites. Such material may be used as a source only if:# it is not unduly self-serving;# it does not involve claims about third parties;# it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;# there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;# the article is not based primarily on such sources.
If Dualus is going on the assumption that this is indeed the actual person, it violates this section as being self published on Wikipedia and does not meet the standard for use on the article or the talk page.
Presumption in favor of privacyAvoid victimization[27]: When writing about a person notable only for one or two events, including every detail can lead to problems, even when the material is well-sourced. When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic. This is of particular importance when dealing with individuals whose notability stems largely or entirely from being victims of another's actions. Wikipedia editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization.
The editor that placed this here is playing the victim even though he is not mentioned at all. By repeating these claims and accusations this violates this section.
Privacy of personal information and using primary sources[28]: With identity theft on the rise, people increasingly regard their full names and dates of birth as private. Wikipedia includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object. If the subject complains about the inclusion of the date of birth, or the person is borderline notable, err on the side of caution and simply list the year. In a similar vein, articles should not include postal addresses, e-mail addresses, telephone numbers, or other contact information for living persons, though links to websites maintained by the subject are generally permitted. See above regarding the misuse of primary sources to obtain personal information about subjects.
We have to assume the privacy of the subject above the belief that the user is being honest about his or her identity right now. The user has not posted any further evidence or references to prove such and repeating the information violates this section.
People who are relatively unknown[29]: Wikipedia contains biographical material on people who, while notable enough for an entry, are not generally well known. In such cases, exercise restraint and include only material relevant to their notability, focusing on high quality secondary sources. Material published by the subject may be used, but with caution; see above. Material that may adversely affect a person's reputation should be treated with special care; in many jurisdictions, repeating a defamatory claim is actionable, and there is additional protection for subjects who are not public figures.
Little to no restraint in repeatedly adding the information back. No secondary sources. Repeating the information is questionable.
Subjects notable only for one event[30]: Wikipedia is not news, or an indiscriminate collection of information. Being in the news does not in itself mean that someone should be the subject of a Wikipedia article. If reliable sources cover the person only in the context of a single event, and if that person otherwise remains, and is likely to remain, a low-profile individual, we should generally avoid having an article on them. Biographies in these cases can give undue weight to the event and conflict with neutral point of view. In such cases, it is usually better to merge the information and redirect the person's name to the event article.
If the event is significant and the individual's role within it is substantial and well-documented—as in the case of John Hinckley, Jr., who shot President Ronald Reagan in 1981—a separate biography may be appropriate. The significance of an event or individual is indicated by how persistent the coverage is in reliable sources.[5] In addition, some subject specific notability guidelines such as Wikipedia:Notability (sports) provide criteria that may support the notability of certain individuals who are known chiefly for one event.
Undue weight to the event and conflict with neutral point of view. Nuetral wording is not used by either the original editor or Dualus by repeating it. There is no notability present in the posting from an anonymous user.
Privacy of names[31]: Caution should be applied when identifying individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed, such as in certain court cases or occupations, it is often preferable to omit it, especially when doing so does not result in a significant loss of context. When deciding whether to include a name, its publication in secondary sources other than news media, such as scholarly journals or the work of recognized experts, should be afforded greater weight than the brief appearance of names in news stories. Consider whether the inclusion of names of private living individuals who are not directly involved in an article's topic adds significant value. The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons.
This person and the people he accuses have not been widely disseminated and in fact some have been intentionally concealed. No value in adding these names in the article as originaly done and then repeated on this talk page.
Where BLP does and does not applyNon-article space[32]: Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced and not related to making content choices, should be removed, deleted, or oversighted as appropriate. When seeking advice about whether to publish something about a living person, be careful not to post so much information on the talk page that the inquiry becomes moot. The same principle applies to problematic images. Questionable claims already discussed can be removed with a reference to the previous discussion.
The BLP policy also applies to user and user talk pages. The single exception is that users may make any claim they wish about themselves in their user space, so long as they are not engaged in impersonation, and subject to What Wikipedia is not, though minors are discouraged from disclosing identifying personal information on their userpages; for more information, see here.[6] Although this policy applies to posts about Wikipedians in project space, some leeway is permitted to allow the handling of administrative issues by the community, but administrators may delete such material if it rises to the level of defamation, or if it constitutes a violation of No personal attacks.
Legal persons and groups[33]: This policy does not normally apply to edits about corporations, companies, or other entities regarded as legal persons, though any such material must be written in accordance with the other content policies. The extent to which the BLP policy applies to edits about groups is complex and must be judged on a case-by-case basis. A harmful statement about a small group or organization comes closer to being a BLP problem than a similar statement about a larger group; and when the group is very small, it may be impossible to draw a distinction between the group and the individuals that make up the group. When in doubt, make sure you are using high-quality sources.
--
Amadscientist (
talk)
10:17, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
I see no BLP violation. Which specific sections of the message do you believe violated the BLP policies you list above?
Dualus (
talk)
16:28, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't know what life would be like if I believed that, but it doesn't seem like it would help write a very good encyclopedia.
Dualus (
talk)
17:13, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
This statement: "Occupy movement protesters have joined the call for a constitutional amendment." is not supported by the following references:
[34] The article is about Congressman Stephen Lynch at a 'Congress On Your Corner' session. Here is the only mention of the subject:
“I firmly believe that the Citizens United decision—I would support a Constitutional amendment to overturn that decision. Granting citizenships to corporations, which are state-created entities that are immortal—they live forever—greatly diminishes the rights of ordinary citizens. I think it was wrong-headed. I think it was probably the worst decision of my lifetime of the Supreme Court.”
This is a quote from the congressman, not a protester. Reference does not support claim.
[35] This is a tertiary source and not the actual source which is CNN. The actual information is this:
Hip Hop mogul and progressive activist Russell Simmons told CNN that Occupy Wall Street protestors will remain at Zuccotti Park possibly until Congress passes a constitutional amendment that says “money is going to leave Washington.” “We want the people to control the government, not the corporations and not the special interests,” said Simmons.
Simmons is not actually one of the protesters, but a celebrity adding support to them. The article actually states that protesters were yelling at Simmons that he was not one of them. Reference does not support the claim.
He is a secondary source reporter in this case, or if not then your premise that he isn't a protester is false.
Dualus (
talk)
16:35, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
[A]lthough the general anti-corporatism theme of the protest has been reported widely, a more detailed policy aim that seemed to frequently come up in conversation has not. That policy aim is very specific: a constitutional amendment addressing corporate personhood and redefining the role of corporations. I'm baffled that, having come away from one day at OWS with a clear understanding that this policy objective is important to the protestors, it seems to be unnoticed by journalists much more experienced than myself. A constitutional amendment surely is not the only thing the demonstrators want, but there can be no doubt that it is an important part of the early conversation.
Again, no mention of the protesters joining a call. Reference does not support the claim.
What part of "That policy aim is very specific: a constitutional amendment addressing corporate personhood and redefining the role of corporations ... having come away from one day at OWS with a clear understanding that this policy objective is important to the protestors, it seems to be unnoticed by journalists much more experienced than myself" is not clear?
Dualus (
talk)
16:35, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
[37] This reference makes something clear. The Amend call is actually being suggested by the author, not noting that the protesters have answered any call.
But OWS and its supporters would be wise to take notice of a separate but allied movement that predates them but is also growing: "Move to Amend" which specifically addresses one of OWS's main concerns, "Corporate Personhood."
The article goes further:
Addressing that very demand, "Move to Amend" www.movetoamend.org was formed by a coalition of nonpartisan citizens and organizations in January 2010 in response to the Supreme Court decision, Citizens United vs. the FEC, which affirmed corporations as "legal persons" with first and 14th Amendment protections including speech, due process and equal protection.
This simply does not state that anyone joined any call for anything. It suggests they should. Reference does not support the claim.
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Amadscientist (
talk)
10:47, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
No, it's not. What a ridiculous statement. Dualus, as I've told you about ten times now (though you reject it each time), it's not the burden of others to comprehensively show that a source doesn't support a statement, because among other things that's an inefficient and impractical task. It's your burden to show that sources support text you include or want to include. If there's a dispute, that may mean you actually have to quote some article text to prove your point. If there is no article text that proves your point, you lose the dispute. That's it. The end.
Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS)(talk)(contribs)17:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Undue weight to Lessig removed
As has been mentioned a number of times. Lessig has nothing to do with this document. It also has little to nothing to do with the senatorial introduction. It's undue weight to Lessig for what appear to be promotional activism. Still no consensus to add this information.--
Amadscientist (
talk)
11:07, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
One of the sources shows him speaking at the Occupy Washington D.C. event. The Slate source says he and the Nobel prize winners give credibility to the movement. I intend to replace the disputed material with a {{POV}} tag at the top of the article.
Dualus (
talk)
15:22, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Article must adhere to MOS and there is no consensus to rename section and move it
The background section was moved down and renamed "Controversy". What controversy? Original Research, synthesis of facts. Replacing back to top as "Background" as intended and written.--
Amadscientist (
talk)
11:17, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
It was a numbered 20-point list. Even if you paraphrased it, that's still the entire list of demands, or virtually all of it, and it is not the purpose of Wikipedia to republish information that you, Dualus, personally feel everybody in the world needs to know. It also contained inexplicable OR. Thus, not fit for inclusion.
Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS)(talk)(contribs)16:47, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
It's hard to shake the feeling that you are trying to use Wikipedia as a
platform for spreading the word about this list, even after OWS itself refused to serve as a platform for spreading the word about this list. Doesn't seem an appropriate use of WP article space.
Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS)(talk)(contribs)17:36, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I have read NPOV. (Note that it requires that articles reflect only significant views that have been published by reliable sources, and only insofar as they can be reflected without bias.)
Jobs for ALL - A Massive Public Works and Public Service Program
We demand a massive public works and public service program with direct government employment at prevailing (union) wages paid for by taxing the rich and corporations, by immediately ending all of America's wars, and by ending all aid to authoritarian regimes to create 25 million new jobs to:
Expand education: cut class sizes and provide free university for all;
Expand healthcare and provide free healthcare for all (single payer system);
Build housing, guarantee decent housing for all;
Expand mass transit, provided for free;
Rebuild the infrastructure�bridges, flood control, roads;
Research and implement clean energy alternatives; and
Clean up the environment.
These jobs are to be open to all, regardless of documentation/immigration status or criminal record.
Whatever NPOV does require, it certainly doesn't require that we repeat the entire substance of this "99% Declaration" that you seem obsessed with, nor that we also repeat the entire substance of every other list of demands that has been discussed.
Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS)(talk)(contribs)20:49, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
On October 15, 2011, the "Demands Working Group" published the declaration of demands, goals, and solutions.[4][5] However, according to Huffington Post blogger Tyler Kingkade, an email sent to him by a person involved in the NYCGA or the Demands Working Group said that
New York City General Assembly official statements are agreed upon by consensus-based general assemblies, while another protester indicated that not all participants agree with issuing demands.[6] The email added, "This matter was not submitted or agreed upon by the NYC general assembly, and therefore by-passed the process all OWS plans have been made through."[6] The lack of formal demands is a matter of pride within the movement. The OWS homepage states: “We are our demands. This #ows movement is about empowering communities to form their own general assemblies, to fight back against the tyranny of the 1%. Our collective struggles cannot be co-opted.” The New York General Assembly has denied claims by the "Demand Working group" that they speak for the movement.[7]
David Haack introduced a proposal outlining demands during the early planning stages of the
Occupy Wall Street protests, but they were was struck down in late August. He discovered a "goals" working group and hoped that common ground could be found.[5]Shawn Redding and others formed the working group in early October to establish specific actions they would use to formally ask federal, as well as local government to adopt. Due to the nature of the movement, that has been difficult in New York and other locations.[8]
On October 31, 2011 the Demands Working Group disappeared from the New York City General Assembly website.citation needed Later that evening a member of the group began making disparaging remarks about the site administration team and the movement overall. The server logs show the group was self deleted by one of their own controlling members. The Official NYC GA website, "Site News" stated that administrators of groups have the ability to delete their own group at any time and "This story gets especially intriguing, though, when the other group admin decided to blame the movement".[9] According to political commentator, Taylor Marsh: "[T]he one thing I’ve seen at OWS, the “working group” isn’t mentioned by name." She goes on to mention postings from OWS and "[T]hat seems to indicate the issuers of the Declaration are not directly tied to OWS.[10]
But I do see that the posted section has the title "Controversy" and not "Background" I see nothing to support the prose as such. Also I have removed the Kinkade reference and statements as unverifiable e-mails mentioned in opinion.--
Amadscientist (
talk)
06:58, 6 November 2011 (UTC)