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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Deletion log here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/27_Club
It was deleted because "The keep arguments have not been able to rebuttal [sic] the WP:NEO arguments appropriately".
However, while several (apparently "inappropriate") arguments were made as to why it is NOT a neologism, NONE were offered as to why it IS a neologism. You can't be expected to refute something adequately if it hasn't been explained adequately.
The discussion did NOT end in a consensus. If you know how, please restore the page and let its deletion discussion continue until a consensus is reached, or at least until somebody explains why it breaches WP:NEO. It doesn't seem to breach it to me; it has many secondary sources... most of the people who called it a neologism did so when it only had a few sources, so several more were added to refute this.
Besides; innocent until proven guilty right? If it's going to be deleted under WP:NEO, someone has to jolly well explain why it breaches WP:NEO!
I'm right and you're wrong 11:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
According to The 27s: The Greatest Myth of Rock & Roll author Eric Segalstad, Leslie Harvey was not a 27. Segalstad acquired a copy of his death certificate, and according to the date of birth on it he was actually 26. So he should be removed from the list. EzraZebra ( talk) 21:32, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
(See the pointer to the AfD debate at the top of this page). Older comments left on this Talk page are still in the history, if anyone wants to bring them back. EdJohnston 21:27, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not very good with adding pictures, nor knowledgeable in copyright issues, so could someone familiar with all the copyright issues find one of the 27 club posters in a low resolution and meeting the copyright criteria, so it can be added to the main page? I'm hoping some pictures can back-up that the 27 club isn't some newly spawned idea. CherryFlavoredAntacid 22:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
As I feared would happen, this article is falling apart and turning into listcruft. The sources I cited for "The 27 Club" being used as a phrase to group *some* of these musicians together name Jones, Joplin, Hendrix, Morrison and Cobain. That's pretty much it. No value judgement on the worth of any of the others, the fame of the others, the talent of the others; that's just who the sources name. Some of the sources mention that there's generally a statistical spike among 27 year old artists and musicians, but any others are rarely named, let alone focused on.
This article needs additional citations for
verification. |
There are no statistics in the reference/footnote of the statement to verify in fact any statistical spike exists- "Some of the sources mention that there's generally a statistical spike among 27 year old artists and musicians, but any others are rarely named, let alone focused on."
What we have now is OR listcruft that is no longer supported by the sources I added. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 05:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
It includes, and only includes Musicians listed on the List of famous people who died young. Zazaban 05:56, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
The table is for the prominent members. The ones commonly used in conjuction with The 27 Club. Not every musician who died at the age of 27. Whether they're on a list of famous people or not, that doesn't make them commonly associated with The 27 Club. CherryFlavoredAntacid 17:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Nowhere does it say "prominent". If this is a requirment please say so in the main article and elaborate on what being "prominent" implies. Zazaban 17:46, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Ah, my bad. It used to say that, until someone edited it out. You can see that in it's history The original term was "the most commonly accepted grouping" Meaning Jones, Joplin, Hendrix, Cobain, and Morrison. They can be defined as "the most commonly accepted grouping" as all (except for Jones) are in a number of 27 Club, Forever 27 and similarly titled shirts, posters, and art. Jones is included in most of them, but not all. A poster including all of them, A poster including all but Jones, A shirt including all of them Johnson, Belvin, McKernan, Alexander, Ham, Bell, Boon and Pfaff are on no such merchandising. They did die at 27, sure, but they're not commonly refered to in conjuction with The 27 Club. As I stated before, in the past, this article included a very long list of many musicians who died at 27. The list was long, messy, and made The 27 Club more of a listcruft than an article. We're trying to prove that the 27 Club is not a neologism (the reason for it's recent deletion), and is, in fact, a real and commonly used term. We need to keep this article clean and encylopedic or it may face deletion yet again. CherryFlavoredAntacid 18:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Then they should be incorperated as references and not external links. Zazaban 19:42, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I like the idea of having two lists of "club members", one list in the main section of the article for the five or six "main" ones and another list in the "Inclusion of less-prominent musicians" section. Both groups are part of this pop culture phenomenon, but the main group is the one most often talked about or depicted. — Mudwater 00:06, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
AMY WINEHOUSE!!!!!!
There has been some debate about whether or not the less prominent members of the 27 Club should be included in the article -- see "Additions of 27 club members" and "This is a mess" above. On the one hand, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, and Brian Jones are the ones most often mentioned, and depicted in artwork. On the other hand, other famous musicians dying at age 27 definitely seems to be a part of the pop culture phenomenon that is the 27 Club. So, as I stated before, I really think the best compromise is to have two separate lists in the article. I'm going to go ahead and put the less famous musicians back into the article, but in a separate list, in the "Inclusion of less-prominent musicians" section. It will still be necessary to "patrol" this second list, to make sure that non-notable musicians are not added. — Mudwater 00:33, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I feel the topic truly is notable, and was considering a deletion review myself. Good work!-- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 19:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
R.I.P. Casey Calvert, who passed away recently at the age of 26. Too soon, for such a talented and popular musician. And also too soon for inclusion in this article. This, according to these stories on the MTV, AOL Music, and Cleveland Leader web sites. — Mudwater 23:43, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
He went missing at 27 - born in the same year as Kurt Cobain and died the year after. Hasn't been pronounced dead, so not quite appropriate for inclusion, but worth noting nonetheless.-- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 12:37, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Richey James was declared legally dead in November 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.113.88.184 ( talk) 15:14, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
I think that Tupac Shakur should be on the 27 list, he died at age 27 and is one of the most influential artists of the 90s and the history of his music genre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.143.238 ( talk) 05:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
2Pac aint' dead mayn Zerocannon ( talk) 05:15, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
I would like to suggest the removal of a new section that was recently added to the article -- "Other well-known musicians who died within 1 month of the 27 club". These musicians are not one of the five who are the main members of the 27 club, and, since they were not 27 when they died, they are not "auxiliary" club members either, so, I think they should not be listed. Also, where do you draw the line? Why not those who missed it by two months, or a year? — Mudwater ( Talk) 00:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Terry Kath was 31 when he died, he shouldn't be included on this list, whether it is restricted to the main five or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.191.56.226 ( talk) 05:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Why is Cobain even in this list he was not 27? just because he would have turned 27 a month or so after his death is no reason to include him. If he wanted to be in the 27 club as his sister stated he should have waited a couple of months to kill himself. Just because the current generation wants a cult icon like the original 4 is no reason to include him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.15.161.217 ( talk) 23:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
The recent book The Da-da-de-da-da Code by Robert Rankin has, as a major plot element, the idea that Robert Johnson (and his infamous deal with the devil at the crossroads) is the source of the 27 Club (although he doesn't call it that).
“ | Johnny Kidd, out of Johnny Kidd and the Pirates, Pig Pen out of the Grateful Dead, Brian Jones, Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Kurt Cobain—the list goes on. It is not a coincidence. You see, they all had one thing in common: they were all Robert Johnson fans. | ” |
I bring this up for two reasons (or maybe three). One, I think this suggests that the canonical list of five that the article currently features may not be as canonical as it suggests; two, Johnny Kidd should possibly be added to the article somewhere; and three, maybe, possibly this book should be mentioned somewhere in the article. But maybe not. :)
In re. my first point (that the "canonical five" are not as canonical as the article suggests), I checked most of the references in the article, and I found little or no evidence in any of them to suggest that these five really need to be singled out. They are probably the best known, but I saw nothing to suggest that there;s anything else which distinguishes them. I'd also like to see a citation for the claim "There is some debate as to the criterion used to include musicians who died at the age of 27 in the '27 Club'". Please note that Wikipedia debate doesn't count and shouldn't be mentioned in the article. :)
I'd try to fix it, but I don't want to trigger an edit war, and anyway, I don't have time right now, so I'm just tossing this all out for further discussion. I'll try to check back, but I'm on indefinite long-term wikibreak, so it may be a while. Xtifr tälk 09:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Disappeared at age 27. It is unknown whether he is dead or alive, but he at least deserves a mention. Zazaban ( talk) 01:18, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
I removed the section on the member of this band who passed. I apologize to fans of this band, but this is a list of "notable" musicians, not teeny bopper bands. Just because he was in the age range and died, doesn't make him or his passing "notable". If one of the Wiggles died, I doubt their death would be mentioned here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.205.240 ( talk) 03:46, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
That doesn't seem fair, regardless of their genre.
In addition, if you've looked at the page recently, you'll notice that it is hardly comprised of notable musicians, for there are numerous obscure musicians from the early twentieth century that are included in this list as well.
They're only obscure if your knowledge of american music is sorely lacking. People still listen to their stuff... will anybody be listening to the crap you mention in 10 years?
Linda Jones, who was Aretha Franklin's and Glady's Knight's inspiration needs to be put on this list.. Here's a link to one of her songs on youtube [1]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruth E ( talk • contribs) 00:47, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I hardly think he should be added to this list, even the list of less prominent musicians. He was an Australian Idol contestant and released 3 top 40 singles that were rarely heard on radio, if at all. I don't think thats deserving of a mention, as he is hardly well-know, even in Australia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.164.67.161 ( talk) 11:36, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm not even sure that Levi Kareama was 27. I realize that some news reports indicated he was, but Australian news outlets The Daily Telegraph and Live Newslisted Kareama as 23 years old. Should he be removed from the list until we know for sure? Powsamurai ( talk) 13:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Recently an editor deleted a section of this article, called "Notable musicians who died at the age 26 or 28". A similar section was removed in the past -- see #Near misses above. I'd like to reopen the discussion about this here on the talk page. So, do you think that this article should include a list of notable musicians who died at age 26 or age 28? Please post your opinion here so that we can establish more of a consensus. I'll start.
Suicides should be taken off the list, any musician can kill themselves at 27 to secure some kind of recognition. Lesser known musicians should be taken off. Rappers should be taken off. They don't sing and are not considered musicians. Poets? ok, I'll buy that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.66.204 ( talk) 02:59, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Gram died at 27, under truely remarkable circumstances. Where is he in this list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.247.232.230 ( talk) 01:10, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
The article is tagged for multiple issues. I propose that the tag be removed. (1) "It needs additional references or sources for verification." The article has 14 footnotes, 5 Reference section references, 1 book for further reading, and 4 external links -- more than sufficient for an article of this length. (2) "Its neutrality or factuality may be compromised by weasel words." As far as I can see, any potential weasel word candidates have references. (For example, "There is a common superstition among the stoner culture that...") (3) "It may require general cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards." The article looks good to me, I don't see a need for a general cleanup. For any of these points, if other editors think that there is an issue, please explain in this talk page section, or just go ahead and fix the article. Thanks — Mudwater ( Talk) 14:54, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
There seems to be a lot of going back and forth as to whether causes of death should be listed as "official," to highlight that there are theories that something else happened, especially with Kurt Cobain and Brian Jones. I propose the column header to be "Official Cause of Death" rather than "Cause of Death," to avoid this in the future. EzraZebra ( talk) 14:57, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps we should consider artists who do not have any notes or references in their or their band's/group's article as non-notable? It seems to me that anyone can quickly write an article about anyone so they appear notable. Currently, Alexandra and Rodrigo Bueno would be removed because of this. EzraZebra ( talk) 15:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm going to go ahead and remove any artists whose articles are not supported by references. EzraZebra ( talk) 20:21, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Hi. The first table contains a "Sort" control for all the columns. However, sort by picture doesn't make much sense. I would recommend allowing sort by Name, Date of death and Aged only. Agreed? Kvsh5 ( talk) 04:57, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
To what extent, if any, should this article mention or discuss controversial alternate ideas about the deaths of some of the musicians, especially Kurt Cobain? — Mudwater ( Talk) 16:23, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
In my opinion, that previous version of the article is perfectly acceptable. This article is about a popular culture phenomenon, as are the "fringe theories" mentioned. However, if we're going to be consistent, the expanded list should probably also be edited to add mention of any controversy there might be. EzraZebra ( talk) 18:28, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
A neutral article would include notable alternative ideas, one possible way woul be to send readers back to the main article where that information is detailed. Jnast1 ( talk) 19:27, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
-- JeffGBot ( talk) 05:50, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
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You need to add Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan on here!
Sicxnightmaree ( talk) 17:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
the whole concept of the 27 Club being a phenomenon is wrong it is merely confirmation bias and therefore I propose that the opening paragraph is edited to reflect this by completely removing the second sentence altogether. Especially now that the worlds lazy journos will be coming here and using it for reference on Amy Winehouse bulletin stories. Expat Justin ( talk) 18:09, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone knows why the singer that ended his life at the smae age does not found over the list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.228.164.119 ( talk) 20:03, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Calvin Harris could join the 27 Club next! -- SpongePappy ( talk) 00:40, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
If The 27s: The Greatest Myth of Rock & Roll is going to be mentioned in the first paragraph, can someone at least add "The 2008 book..." to the beginning of the sentence? Trivialist ( talk) 00:41, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I propose getting rid of that long list. A lot of them don't even have a wikipedia page. What's the point of the list?-- 345Kai ( talk) 22:08, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Sorry to comment without logging in, but I wanted to ask real quick why the list is separated between those four and the rest? What makes a person particularly notable to be included on the big list? Robert Johnson is quite famous but he isn't on the list... I don't think that just because they are the most commonly cited examples by music publications they should be separated from the rest. -- 68.89.187.238 ( talk) 23:48, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Hallo The German singer "Alexandra" is missing in the Club 27!
Kind regards
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_%28S%C3%A4ngerin%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_%28singer%29 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.157.22.240 ( talk) 09:08, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Sorry to add to the clutter. But this article at CNN is a pretty strong case that she should be in the headline list. -- TimL ( talk) 09:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
She was more famous in Britian, but she did experience substantial fame with books, tv shows and a product line. She starred in a season of Celebrity Big Brother with Jermaine Jackson, of the Jackson 5, and Bollywood superstar Shilpa Shetty. She died at the age of 27 from Metastatic cervical cancer. Bab-a-lot ( talk) 10:18, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Why is this page protected and who the heck has been editing it 100 times a day when it is? G90025 ( talk) 15:00, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
She died at 27 from a murder and was an influential punk rock musician. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dill2011 ( talk • contribs) 18:27, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
PLEASE TAKE WINEHOUSE OFF THIS LIST!!! Robert Johnson is the founding father of the blues; Brian Jones was in the Rolling Stones; Jimi Hendrix re-invented how the guitar was perceived and played; Jim Morrison was in the Doors (which began the psychedelic MUSIC movement through the combination of words, music, and synths); Janis Joplin was the first prominent figure in blues rock; Kurt Cobain was considered a key figure and voice of a generation.
Amy Winehouse did nothing special. As talented as she was, she does not deserve to be on the list with the rankings of the above mentioned people. Please move her down the list to the other mentionable people category. — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:Contributions/67.180.240.62 |67.180.240.62 ]] ([[User talk:67.180.240.62 |talk]]) 10:42 (UTC), 23 August 2011
PLEASE UNLOCK THE LIST TO ADD Amy Winehouse to the Jim Morrison honor list. Dude, she won 6 Grammys, and in a massive irony, the lead song in "Back to Black" was REHAB. Talk about irony?
Amy Winehouse on July 23 has officially joined the 27 club — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.0.194.46 ( talk) 17:41, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Viktor Tsoi (Viktor Robertovich Tsoi (Russian: Ви́ктор Ро́бертович Цой [sometimes transliterated as Zoy]; 21 June 1962, Leningrad, USSR – 15 August 1990, Tukums, Latvian SSR, USSR) was a Russian rock musician, leader of the band Kino. He is regarded as one of the pioneers of Russian rock and has many devoted fans across the countries of the former Soviet Union even today. Few musicians in the history of Russian music have been more popular or have had more impact on their genre than Viktor Tsoi and his rock band Kino. Tsoi contributed a plethora of musical and artistic works, including ten albums. He died in a car accident on August 15, 1990, less that two month withing turning age 28. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.175.102.98 ( talk) 20:36, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
I've been noticing alot of people have been adding lesser known musicians who died at the age of 27 to the table. I believe it may be getting a little out of hand, as the table is not meant for every musician who died at 27. Only the widely known members. (Jones, Cobain, Morrison, Hendrix, and Joplin) While I'm not saying these other musicians are not members of the 27 club, earlier versions of this article included a full list of musicians who died at 27, and it was rather long, and a bit messy looking, due to the sheer mass, and the fact that many of the musicians weren't widely known. Perhaps we should keep this article to just the prominant members, so this doesn't look like a trivia page? CherryFlavoredAntacid 18:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Nobody who isn't on List of famous people who died young Zazaban 23:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Alexandre Levy founding member was taken out! Somebody put him in again! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Osinistron ( talk • contribs) 21:12, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Amy Winehouse should be added to the Jim Morrison, Cobain, Joplin list. Ariadni79 ( talk) 20:21, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
No, she shouldn't. All the artists in the 27 club were prolific songwriters who influenced and changed music beyond their deaths. Winehouse had 2 albums, one of which were other peoples songs. Yes, she was a good singer, but hardly on par with the others considered to be part of the 'club'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.228.48.64 ( talk) 08:53, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
You did not read what I wrote, the wording was chosen for specific reasons. Yes both Jimi Hendrix & Nirvana became more popular after Cobain and Hendrix's demise, but they also totally revolutionized the sound of everyone else in the industry. Hendrix led to a more guitar based sound in the late 60s/early 70s and Nirvana lead to the bane of music called nu-metal, including Korn and many other popular bands. I cannot name specific references to bands Hendrix type plaing spawned as I am not old enough to consider myself expert on this time period, but I can indeed list a slew of bands that would not have existed if Nirvana had not been around. Brian Jones is on the list by default because the band he was in is one of the most influential bands, arguably, of all time. As for Winehouse being the Nirvana for British women, that may be the case, but that is a specific niche genre of singers. Not an industry wide change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.228.48.64 ( talk) 16:03, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
This has become ridiculous. Just because Amy Winehouse was a famous musician who died at 27 doesn't mean she should be added to the traditional list of five rock musicians who are considered icons/legends. 24.23.132.244 ( talk) 07:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Amy Winehouse should be added to other musicians, not the main list. The main list consists of rock and roll legends, people who have changed music for ever. Only time can tell if she will be the stuff of legend, I personally don't think she will — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
92.30.236.203 (
talk)
12:17, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
He isn't very well-known, but his place on the list, or at least the description next to his name, doesn't do him justice. He's the grandfather of rock & roll and influenced far more artists than simply Jimi Hendrix, Keith Richards, and Eric Clapton. Furthermore, he is most notable not only because he influenced future musicians, but because he was a true genius; he changed music history. Cami Solomon 02:58, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
If you're not going to include Robert Johnson, you shouldn't include any of them. Those of us who actually know a thing or two about music know who the fuck Robert Johnson is.
I couldn't agree more, as usual, most people never go back to the roots of something, there wouldn't be a Hendrix without Robert Johnson... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.204.66.6 ( talk) 23:58, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Robert Johnson shouldn't be limited to "Bluesman". Although the blues recordings are what he is known for, he played other styles too. Like every other musician of the time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TolarisTango ( talk • contribs) 02:50, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
What does this list have to do with Johnson? He started it. "According to legend, as a young man living on a plantation in rural Mississippi, Robert Johnson was branded with a burning desire to become a great blues musician. He was "instructed" to take his guitar to a crossroad near Dockery Plantation at midnight. There he was met by a large black man (the Devil) who took the guitar and tuned it. The "Devil" played a few songs and then returned the guitar to Johnson, giving him mastery of the instrument. This was in effect, a deal with the Devil mirroring the legend of Faust. In exchange for his soul, Robert Johnson was able to create the blues for which he became famous." (from Johnson's Wikipedia page) Johnson had no fame during his lifetime. 20 years after his death, his records found their way across the Atlantic, and he became successful in England. It was the Enlish who brought him back to this country. It began with British Blues Rock, but spread throughout much of the classic Rock Era. Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Led Zeppelin, The Rolling Stones and many others were highly influenced by Johnson, often covering or borrowing lyrics from his songs. Eric Clapton recorded an entire album of Johnson's songs, and Led Zepplin often worked his lyrics into their own songs. The Lemon Song used lyrics from "Traveling Riverside Blues", and later, they would cover the song entirely. The fact is '60s/'70s Rock could never have been what it was without Robert Johnson. It's not that there were ever any real statistics saying more people died at the age of 27, what people noticed, was that the 4 main people in the original list, who were all hugely influential in that Rock Era, all died at the exact same age as Robert Johnson. Many people were supersticious, others thought it was just coincidence, but it was hard not to wonder. I'm not sure Robert Johnson should be in the main list for dying on his own death date, but he certainly should be mentioned as the father of it all, in a brief summary of how the list came to be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.71.50.225 ( talk) 07:26, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Kurt Cobain was removed from the main list. Fix please — Preceding unsigned comment added by UsernameTaken12345 ( talk • contribs) 21:58, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm not certain why he's a part of it, after giving attention to the Winehouse debate. The 27 club is mainly four musicians who died within a year, or so, of each other. Cobain was a toddler when all of that happened. It is subjective to include him, otherwise all other musicians should be added to the list. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
98.231.117.36 (
talk)
15:01, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
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Amy Winehouse died at her London flat in Camden Town at 1355 BST on the 23/07/11
109.149.96.200 ( talk) 17:08, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
It says she (amy winehouse) died of a cocaine overdose this is not yet a known fact the cause of death until such time that it is released should be unknown.
Not a Rockanrola so is not part of the club — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.30.232.191 ( talk) 17:09, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
I know that Amy Winehouse died today, but as I'm looking on the list, Robert Johnson should be included in the upper tier. None of the artists following that would probably have nearly as much recognition if not for him. Splent ( talk) 17:20, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Robert Johnson stands out on the secondary list, but he was of from a different era, when jazz and blues formed the 'popular music' of America. Quite a few jazz musicians died in young adulthood from substance abuse or other causes (automobile accidents, murder) back in the day, but not all that many were 27 years old when they died... that seems to be a coincidence, or death wish in the case of Cobain and perhaps Winehouse, that came about much later. So culturally Johnson does not belong on the list, although he would if stature as a musician was the criteria.
Every time I've heard the 27 club mentioned (particularly since Amy Winehouse) Robert Johnson has been on the list, to be honest him Jimi Hendrix and Kurt Cobain would have been the only people I'd have known off the top of my head. I don't know why he's been demoted here but the following blogs all call him a (the founding) member of the club blog the fix hollywood today npr — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.195.207 ( talk) 19:34, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Robert Johnson is an odd case. There's no denying that he's just as influential to music as the "main" 27 club members. And the links provided by 220.71.81.75 certainly show that a number of critics group him with the others. The gray area is the fact that he died long before the 27 club became notorious. If he is not included, then I think it should at least be mentioned that some critics consider Johnson to be the first member. -- Scorpion 0422 17:21, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
If Amy Winehouse is added, Robert Johnson should be added. I went ahead and added him, only because he is so influential. Most critics say he was the first member anyway, and to include him as a secondary member just doesn't make any sense. Splent ( talk) 00:36, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Remove both Amy and Robert Jazz is not rock. End of discussion — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.87.237.43 ( talk) 06:03, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
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Please revert the page and put it at fully protected. 217.44.72.99 ( talk) 17:20, 23 July 2011 (UTC) You guys are TOTALLY lame! If it's true how can you leave out Robert Johnson? And what about Pig Pen from The Grateful Dead??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.5.254.105 ( talk) 18:48, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Hello, why is Amy Winehouse even mentioned here? The article says "rock musicans" Amy Winehouse hoewever performed Jazz R&B and Soul...even according to the wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Winehouse greets, GBK — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.245.236.34 ( talk) 17:48, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
If you were to read the rest of the article, you'd see there are musicians from all genres. Jessica ( talk) 17:52, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Than the line about rock musicans should be changed to musicans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.245.236.34 ( talk) 18:01, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
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per above comment, "rock music artists" to "musicians" in first sentence. U-Mos ( talk) 18:11, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
she is suspected of overdose — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.142.14 ( talk) 19:12, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
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Hi, I'd like to propose to make 2 changes to the page:
Uuhhh... actually she was a great musician with two critically acclaimed albums. If Janis Joplin is on the list, then Amy definitely should be. There is a whole new generation of female musicians and singers that credit Amy Winehouse for opening the door to their kind of music in the mainstream: Adele, Duffy, Lady Gaga, Lily Allen. Whether she is added to the main list or not should be decided on her achievements as a musician, not on tabloid culture or her drink/drug issues. All of the musicians on the main list had drug and alcohol issues just as bad as Amy that they never overcomed, but we rightly honour them because of their music. - -- 122.58.186.80 ( talk) 21:23, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
I don't think she should be added - yet. Odds are she'll be included in full at some point, but not right now. Toa Nidhiki 05 20:04, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
She should not be added, the Original 27 club was made of rock singers who died at 27 in a short period of time, they all were hugely influential on the music stage... Cobain was later added because Nirvana made a huge impact on the 90's and helped define a generation and a decade. Winehouse was famous yes, influential? no. and she wasn't even a rock singer. As someone said, rest assured she will be forgoten soon (just let a couple of weeks go and the initial twitter and sensationalist media hype about the 27club tone down). She barely had a #1 hit for that matter. There is a REASON every single artist who dies at 27 ISN'T included on the list therefore included on the secondary list. Yaddar 20:28, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
There is no consensus to add her to the top list at this time. Let's see in another year. Debresser ( talk) 15:34, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
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The "Picture," "Fame," "Cause of Death," and "Claim to notability" fields on the two lists should be classed as "unsortable." Equally the names should all be sorted by the last name and the dates resorted with an easy "span style" in front of each of them.-- Tim Thomason 19:56, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi All, Just noticed this article online on NineMSN (Australian version of MSN): Amy Winehouse joins tragic '27 Club'. Shouldn't this wikiarticle be updated? Regards, DPdH ( talk) 01:34, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Yes it should - extremely reliable source The Guardian reports on it - [4] - as this page is just going off popular culture and is not an official group with membership... she should be added to the main table because pop culture is reporting it as so.... RaintheOne BAM 02:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
It is very interesting seeing the argument played out as to whether Amy Winehouse should be added to Wikipedia’s 27 club. There has, of course, never actually been a ‘formal’ 27-club – there has never been an official entry process. (It is interesting to note that Wikipedia classes the article in rock music – this is merely a Wikipedia classification, there has never been any ‘rule’ stipulating people in the group must be associated exclusively with ‘rock’ music). It has instead been a group of musical artists who have had ‘rock and roll’ lifestyles and have tragically died at the young age of 27, shocking the public. It wasn’t necessarily those who were the most popular at the time: Janis Joplin was hardly a chart-buster. However it was her legacy and influence over not only the public, but arguably more importantly current and future artists that made her important. The same goes with the other artists, their legacy and influence has made their importance huge. If we apply this to Amy Winehouse, not only is she an impressive award-winning performer, but her artistic influence is huge. Would Adele be as popular as she is without Amy Winehouse treading the path first? I doubt it. The same goes with a whole host of female artists. Kurt Cobain’s addition was contentious at the time, but set a precedent that additions could be made. Considering the 27-club is not official, and based solely on perception, and it is now on the public’s psyche that Winehouse has joined the 27-club, I would argue heavily that she be added soon to this Wikipedia article. She was a huge artist, especially in Europe. To deny her a place on the list would leave this Wikipedia article incorrect and out of touch.
The risk of this article is that it attempts to establish two distinct types of entrant; there are "Musicians usually included in the 27 Club" and "Other musicians who died at 27". The entry criteria is vague. In my opinion, the word "usually" makes it difficult to apply such a recently deceased musician to the top list. As Amy Winehouse is the subject of a current news event, I don't see how we can objectively decide that it is usual for her to be mentioned in the list - all of the sources that list her are deliberately weighted towards the significance of her dying at 27 and it is not particularly newsworthy at this time for them to suggest that she should not appear on the list.
Perhaps it would be better to wait for more retrospective sources to include her definitively in the list. Current news reports are prone to bias and sensationalism. BBC News mentions the five existing 'usual' members
[8] - Maybe when another musician dies at 27, or when reliable sources publish 'Club 27' lists, we can review whether or not Amy Winehouse falls into the same category.
SimonMayer (
talk)
20:06, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
One possible solution (not sure if it has already been mentioned), is to separate those in the original list and those who have been added since (Cobain and Winehouse). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rooch84 ( talk • contribs) 09:25, 25 July 2011 (UTC)