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I'm not a serb, I have dual citizenship to the United States and Spain. The source material is not Serbian either, it's British. So until you provide YOUR OWN verifiable material, your edits are going to be COTINOUSLY reverted. JonCatalan 18:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Now, it says that the division's original intentions were to purify the race. The division was created by the Germans; specifically, under the orders of Heinrich Himmler. There is nothing false, and indeed, it would only make sense. The only sentence that says that the division actually carried out its task is the final sentence, and it would become notorious for murder. But that's not to say it was the only thing killing at the time. There were dozens of Serbian groups and fighters that massacred Macedonians, Albanians and Croats during the war as well. But you cannot edit the article, vandalize it, and claim that it's all written under Serbian nationalism, when it's simply untrue. Please, have a bit more etiquette. JonCatalan 19:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Jon Catalan
That book of Chris Bishop is published just recently (in 2005) in an attempt to revision the history. But given that books with historical distortions do not have a wide range of readers, you seem to act as a marketing manager of Chris Bishop to advertise his book on Wikipedia.
I now start refuting your comments. About Ottoman Empire: have a look at what you have written (I am copying your original text): The division arm patch consisted of a black double-headed eagle on a red background, and the division was named after George Kastrioti Skanderbeg (1405 - 1468), who was renamed Iskander Bey after fighting for the Turks, who captured him earlier. He later led the unsuccessful attempt at Albanian independence against the Ottomans. Now, have a look at my previous comments about who captured him earlier. Whether Chris Bishop or you are saying so, it does not matter. What matters is that it is a lie. You have also received a remark by someone, not in the talk page but in your text, about Skanderbeg’s unsuccessful attempt at Albanian independence against the Ottomans, who told you: who writes this stuff, Skanderbeg fought and won against Ottomans for 25 years. Had Skanderbeg not been successful we won’t see Serbs speaking Serbian today. Come on let’s be serious, he concluded.
You also wrote that the task of the division was to establish a pure Albanian race in the region, among others, free of Jews. By the way, have you clicked on the link that I provided in my previous comment about the relation between Albanians and the Jews during WWII? Is that a CREDIBLE source? For you it may be not, for the rest of the world it is. You know why? Because it is written not by Chris Bishop, any Spaniard like you, but by a Jew called Haroey Samer who titled his thorough and detailed investigation Rescue In Albania: One Hundred Percent Of Jews In Albania Rescued From Holocaust, published by Brunswick Press, California, 1997. If you want to read it click here http://www.aacl.com/index11.html
Kosovo had the highest Jewish survival during WWII after Albania in occupied territories by Axis. Of total 520 Jews in Kosovo on the eve of WWII, 320 or over 60% survived (Source: read the book of Cambridge Professor Noel Malcolm, Kosovo: A Short History, New York University Press; New Update edition (November 2000).
You or Chris Bishop (it does not matter who) wrote that: It was originally designed to combat partisans in Yugoslavia, but it was used early on to massacre Orthodox Serbs in Kosovo, forcing over ten thousand families to flee north, and allowing ethnic Albanian farmers to settle in their stead. To prove that just the opposite has happened, you should not read any other book of Chris Bishop, but the facts published by some Serb scholars. Here is one source: Obradovič, Milovan (1981), Agrarna Reforma i Kolonizacija na Kosovu 1918-1941, (meaning: Agrarian Reform and Colonization in Kosova 1918-1941), Institut za Istoriju Kosova, Priština. This is a PhD dissertation showing who was massacring who, who grabbed the land of Albanians in Kosovo, who was fleeing from the terror to Turkey, and many more. The book is in Serbian and follows a vast number of Serb families by names and last names, their location where they came from to settle in Kosovo in the land taken by terror. Agrarian reform and kolonization continued until 1999.
Who needs more CREDIBLE sources?
I will revert your writing on this topic as long as an administrator allows you to post inaccurate things for marketing purposes, i.e. promote the book of Chris Bishop. By the way, I am an economist and know marketing better than you and Chris Bishop.
Isa Mulaj
The article said:
I've changed it to:
This corresponds with statement on the AACL website [1], and is probably what was intended to be said in the first place. Jews were obviously not deported from Allied countries that were not occupied. -- Arvind 15:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Article states "In Kosovo, the division embarked on ethnic cleansing of the Serbs and other non-Albanians." and gives two sources. Unfortunately, both of them ( [2], [3]) are extremely non-neutral pro-Serbian pages. Article should really has more neutral sources for such a strong claim. BTW: The fact that this was a SS-division doesn't necessarily mean it did ethnic cleaning or other heavy human rights violations (allthought chances may be good it did). For example a SS-battalion formed from Finnish volunteers haven't been connected to human rights violations. -- ML ( talk) 16:20, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
One more objection. In further reading, there are more books, articles and sources that doesn’t relate to this article or its subject. This article speaks about one of the SS divisions.
How can this book Milovan Obradovič, Agrarna Reforma i Kolonizacija na Kosovu 1918-1941, Institut za Istoriju Kosova, Priština (1981) be considered as further reading when it doesn’t talk about Second World War, or Waffen SS. As its title said it covers historical period before the division was founded.
Second, how this source Haroey Samer, Rescue In Albania: One Hundred Percent Of Jews In Albania Rescued From Holocaust, Brunswick Press, California (1997) relate to the article when it covers rescue of the Jews in Albania. The division was formed in Kosovo, from Kosovo Albanians and it didn’t participate in rescuing the Jews.
Third this article The Jews, the Serbs, and the Truth by Stephen Schwartz talks about Serbs and Jews, not about Kosovo, Waffen SS, Albanians or anything else that has connection to this article.
I suggest that these books and article should be deleted from the chapter further reading since no other article about SS divisions has such a diversity of unrelated sources and references. -- Marko M 12:47, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed the link to an article on frontpagemag.com because I found another which is more precise. The article claimed that SS Skanderbeg turned 210 Jews to Nazis, which is oversimplification because, as the more detailed Serbianna article shows, 281 Jews were turned of which 210 were killed. Nikola 23:21, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
"I removed the link to an article on frontpagemag.com because I found another which is more precise." You print it from Serbianna, and you call that precise? Keep it Fake ( talk) 01:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I have added a POV template because the sources used in the article are all Serbian and we do not know if the information provided in the sources is accurate. With the Albanian- Serbian conflict still going on, I believe many of the sources used in the article are not neutral and they were written for propaganda purposes. The whole article should be rewritten based on neutral sources and not on articles written by biased Serbian self-declared historians. -- Noah30 ( talk) 07:11, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
-- One needs to read what this character Savich (a Serb nationalist), who calls himself a historian writes: "The uniforms and the acronyms have changed from the Waffen SS to NATO and the political sponsors have changed from Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini and Heinrich Himmler to Bill Clinton and Tony Blair and Madeleine Albright, but the Greater Albania ideology remains exactly the same, identical to that enunciated by the 1943 Second League of Prizren, and the 1878 First League of Prizren." http://www.kosovo.net/news/archive/2004/July_23/2.html
Should he be used as a source?
Keep it Fake ( talk) 01:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
On the Serb site this is the text: (notice how it starts with an inflammatory headline only to show that Jews is Serbia had it much worst. Did they cut and paste too fast?)
"Albanian extremists target the Jews of Kosovo
At the beginning of the second world war, Kosovo had a population of 550 Jews. Altogether, 210 perished in German concentration camps - the only Jews to be killed in the war in Kosovo - representing 38.18% of the Jewish population. This compares with Belgrade, were only 1,115 survived the war out of almost 12,000 (9%), and Croatia, where an estimated 25% of the Jewish population survived. Thus, you were more likely to survive the war if you were Jewish and lived in Albania or Kosovo rather than Belgrade or Croatia. However, this is not to say that it was any easier for Jews, Roma or Slavs - the three national groups designated by the Nazi's as "subhuman races", and top of their list for extermination or deportation by the Nazis or their quislings in Croatia, Serbia and Kosovo.
In fact, one of the first acts of the SS Skanderbeg division in April 1944 was the arresting of 281 Jews in Pristina, and "510 Jews, Communists, Partisans and individual suspects". According to Bernard J. Fischer, writing in Albania at War, 1939-1945 (Purdue University Press, West Lafayette, Indians, USA, 1999, p. 187). All 281 Jews were deported to Germany - probably to Bergen-Belsen death camp. However, the German occupation authorities allowed Albania an unusual degree of autonomy and, for the most part, refrained from deporting and/or murdering the majority of Albanian Jews. Most of the tiny Jewish population of "old Albania" (about 200) survived the Holocaust. The Germans, however, confiscated most Jewish-owned property in 1943-1944."
This entire article is based on Carl Savich--a known Serb apologist--and this .yu site. I will post a check for accuracy tag as well. If true, they should state the fact and where they got the info from; throwing numbers around in a politically sensitive topic to make one side look bad should not be allowed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake ( talk • contribs) 07:07, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Unless you cite books or neutral sites this will be reversed. Citing Serb sources and using unsubstantiated "Muslims killed all Jews" in light of what's going on today in Serbia /Kosovo will be reversed. Cite or leave it alone. Keep it Fake ( talk) 20:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Could someone at least clarify why the sourced info here is removed? I am certainly not trying to defend the SS or the Albanians, but good reasons must be named for the removal of referenced info. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 22:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
(after talking about land confiscation from Albanians and driving out 50K Albanians she states) "The tables were turned during WWII...(ejected an estimated 70K) of the newly arrived settlers"
Let's not play games. I know and you know, the didn't give a rats @ss about Nazis, just as Chetniks didn't. Keep it Fake ( talk) 15:54, 8 June 2008 (UTC) ok I understand, that should be included and explained, but the sources are not biased (at first glance), and the removal of the quotes is against Wiki policy. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 21:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok, where can I find the sources, especially for the last paragraph? I am putting this article on the notice board.-- Arbër T • ? 11:47, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello all. I hope that we can keep this peaceful. Some are concerned that the article is too -- aggressive -- for lack of a better word. I however believe it omits a lot. Although this is not a neutral source, and for some may not be credible, please see the "Mike Savage discusses Kosovo" video on YouTube. The beginning discusses the 21st SS division. I believe that it is important to keep accuracy in history. I also want to note that there is NO nation that doesn't have it's blemishes. Signed: Mira, 11:36, 07 July 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirakres ( talk • contribs)
I am adding a half division. 6500 joined and they deserted within weeks. Divisions are 10,000 to 20,000 troops Keep it Fake ( talk) 22:23, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
I do not think that the information of this article is entirely accurate. It seems like a sincere effort to induce people into a personal line of reasoning without concerning itself too much with historical accuracy.
It is true that the Germans constituted the division along the same lines that saw the emergence of other foreign SS units. However, the Albanians of Kosovo knew nothing and cared nothing about the National Socialist policies of Hitler. Instead they used the opportunity to take revenge on the Serb and Montenegrin population that was settled in Kosovo between 1920-1938. While in itself a despicable action, this was a response to the colonialist policies of the central government in Belgrade. Their main motivation was revenge and a naive hope that the Germans were friends that would bring about a permanent change in the region.
As a military unit the Division's role is debatable. Being constituted as a force to be engaged in anti-partisan operation it had an initial membership of 6,500 (plus change). Within two months more that 3,500 deserted as they didn't want to be deployed in areas away from home (meaning village or city). The Germans ever since had trouble in keeping up with the numbers. Eventually they gave up, disbanded the division and rolled up the remainder of those who decided to stay in the Kampfgruppe Skanderbeg attched to SS-Gebirgs-Division "Prinz Eugen". This detachment saw action in Serbia, Bosnia and some members found their way to Austria.
On a final note, the internet contains very few pages written about this Albanian SS Division. Virtually all of them are Serbian sources which, in light of the Albanian-Serbian animosity make hardly credible sources. If the division was as cruel as the writer of the article suggests it was, then sources other than Serbian would have been available. There aren't (at least as many as there are for other SS Divisions) The German or Allied sources would have mentioned it and memebers would have been brought to international justice. As it happens, they were not.
I am not saying that you shouldn't state their deeds, but the way the article portrays them is akin to Einsatzgruppen, o sort of Totenkopf verbande unit which clearly they were not
If you regard the Kosovar-Albanians of the time as deeply indoctrinated people, politically savvy, and ideologically compatible with Nazi policies than reality escapes you, to say the least. One thing motivated them and thats a fact, research it if you must would be as I mentioned it the revenge toward the Serbian policy of colonizing Kosovo. Kosovo may be the heartleand of the Serbian nation - that's an entirely different discussion, but it is also a fact that Albanians, at the time, still a majority in Kosovo, were suffering from the policies of Belgrade in bringing in on regular basis colonials from inner Serbia to replace the lands made vacant from the forceful removal and deportation of the Albanians in Turkey. Then there were the economic incentives created for these colonials at the expanse of the ALbanians.
Former mayor of Vienna and Ribentropp's special counsel for Southeastern Europe Hermann Neubacher states during the initial phases of training the division was poorly led and performed terribly against the partisans. Also they prefered to rob and fight their "traditional enemy" (I believe Serbs are implied) rather than fight along military lines. Coupled with massive desertions, the disappoinment was so great that by the end of 1944 the division was disbanded. Having been conceived in February 1944, suffering major desertion in October and being disbanded, lets say, December; in addition of being led by Germans (to whom the petty differences between serb and albanian farmer would have been of little importance) I really doubt their worth as both a military and police force. Yes they did enagage in some atrocities, but I dont think you should put this out of context given the bad blood between Albanians and Serbs at the time. Therefore I wouyld call this revenge. Again, dont ask "how could anyone live in Europe of the time and not know that??" That is not a realistic question. A population, steeped into feudal patterns, virtually illiterate, completely cut off the influence of Western civ.,... even if they knew it, they wouldnt have cared about it.
Bernd J. Fischer, an author who wrote about it reports Germans were popular in Albania, but the majority didn.t believe in the final victory of the Axis. They respected Hitler, but abhorred fascism. It is ironic to read such contradictory viewpoints. In fact the respect of the ALbanians for the Germans came from the times of the WWI when the Austrian-Hungarian armies had accoupied large tarritories of Albania.
Again, I am not against the accusations that Albanians killed Serbs and Montenegrins during their unification stint with Albania proper. It is highly unrealistic to expect the contrary especially since for the last 70 years or so Albanians and Slavs just vented at each other. The Serb retreat in 1915 thru Albania is another example. However, I am against the general feel of the article which makes Albanians appear as they are indoctrinated Nazi Einsatzgruppen. The artticle doesn't state this, but the reader is left with such an emotion. In order to prevent inaccuracies, I would add, since it is your article, the reasons behind that prompted the creation of the division, why they were so dead-set against the Serbs and Montenegrins, and so on and forth. One more thing, what make you disagree with the quation?
I did not write this article; most of it is written by User:Catalan. I don't think that the article has such feel, but if you do, edit the article, and change it, and I will tell you if you disagree.
By the way, when on talk page, you should sign your text with ~~~~. Nikola 07:32, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
"SS Skanderbeg" was formed from a Albanian battalion from SS Handzar with only few houndred soldiers, they tried forced recruition but they failed because all true Albanian patriots were anti nazi, all those numbers with 5000 soldiers or more are all false.
After the war Jugoslavian propaganda first said that the number of this division was 40000, then after this number seemed ridiculous they changed the number to 10000, now it is from 1500 to 5000. While there exist many photos from all other SS divisions even of Serbian SS soldiers, there are no photos of "SS Skanderbeg" the few ones that are supposed to be from "SS Skanderbeg" are either false or presumed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.229.106.225 ( talk) 00:05, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
This is not a Waffen SS Division, but a Division of the SS. Only units made up of ethnic germanic people were Waffen SS Divisions. The units of the 21st Division of the SS did not wear SS collars. -- 85.235.22.79 ( talk) 14:10, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
I am going to add a "war crimes" section to this page. There is alot that is missing and I have reliable sources. -- MoravaiDrina ( talk) 18:36, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
It’s shame that article about SS division contains information about saving the Jews. I didn’t know anything about this humanitarian aspect of SS. I think that these information should be excluded from this article.
I believe that Albanian families who participated in saving the Kosovo Jews in World War II do not deserve to be mentioned together with members of SS. They deserve special article that will talk about their humanity. All the members of Wikipedia who want to write on this subject can find relevant information on official website of United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington DC. -- Marko M 10:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Sources other than the biased Zionist organisations are available. The simple fact is that Jews in Albania where not targeted for special persecution. While the Balkans have had their share of pogroms, during WWII there was so much acrimoniousness between the different and more numerous ethnic and militant groups that the Jewish minority fortunately passed relatively unscathed. The fact that a SS unit was not involved in anti-Jewish persecution is noteworthy in view of the post-war propaganda by the liberal and Jewish-influenced media 85.247.228.162 ( talk) 05:38, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
G'day, I'm a bit concerned that relevant material sourced from Raphael Lemkin has been removed from the Background section. See this version of the article [4]. Also, I suggest this article is pushed through a MILHIST B Class review via Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Requests before the GAN starts. Regards, Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 03:49, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Given that Fischer states essentially that Schmidhuber and others were blaming the Albanians for their own failure to create an effective security force, when less-involved Wehrmacht staff said the principal problem was the fact that the the Germans didn't engage properly with the Albanians, it seems a bit rich (and POV) to include quotes by those most responsible for the problem. I propose summarising the blame-game and dispensing with the quotes. Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 01:20, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't believe Fitzthum ever commanded the division. As Higher SS and Police Leader in Albania he recruited and trained men for the formation of the division between April and June 1944, but listing him as a commander is a big stretch. Elsie's biographical dictionary of Albanian history, p. 144 here doesn't mention him commanding the division. Tomasevich says the division was commanded by Schmidhuber, as does Fischer. I don't rate Mitcham all that highly as a source, but he says Schmidhuber was the only permanent commander of the division but mentions Graf (sic) reported serving briefly as acting division commander here. I'm going to remove the commanders section and explain more about who recruited and trained the men, who commanded it in the text. Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 14:53, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Sturmvogel 66 ( talk · contribs) 17:09, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I'll get to this shortly.-- Sturmvogel 66 ( talk) 17:09, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I've added a picture of the division's recruiting poster.
Done.
Fixed.
Done. 23 editor ( talk) 00:52, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
I have thus far avoided using Mitcham because the publisher is not well-thought-of in respect of editorial oversight. I suggest we find another source for Schmidhuber's execution. Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 00:20, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Does anyone know if Tomasevich mentions anything about the Skanderbeg division and its participation in Operation Draufgänger in his book War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, 1941-1945: The Chetniks? 23 editor ( talk) 15:50, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
Given the Skanderbeg div was raised after the Italian surrender, the map is really not chronologically appropriate. What about the recruiting poster that used to be in the article? I don't think there is a 1944 location map for Albania that could be used. This may not be an obstacle to GA but it will impede A-Class. Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 07:40, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Would anyone object if I added the Albanian double-headed eagle as the division's identification symbol? 23 editor ( talk) 15:25, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
I reckon this is ready for MILHIST ACR? Thoughts? Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 13:14, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
I was thinking it would be a good idea to add a Legacy section in the article. According to several books I've seen, it would appear that any mention of the division was prohibited in Hoxha's post-war Communist Albania. I think this should definitely be mentioned. Thoughts? 23 editor ( talk) 16:53, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Upon closer inspection, I'd say the book shouldn't be used (it doesn't appear to be written by an academic). However, I'll write up a Legacy section anyway outlining how the division was considered a failure, how its role in war crimes is interpreted by an Albanian historian, as well as some comments from journalist Chris Hedges about the division. Regards, 23 editor ( talk) 02:20, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to term the Mufti's greeting as seen on the picture in the article as being a Nazi salute? Or is his greeting just a kind of wave? Thoughts? 23 editor ( talk) 22:23, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
Agreed, I'll see if I can dig anything up. 23 editor ( talk) 00:55, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Re: On the Mufti's own Wikipedia article, there is a pic of him giving the salute to members of the Handschar division. The caption terms it a "Nazi salute" and this bit is sourced with a book by Robert Fisk, titled The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East. What do you think? 23 editor ( talk) 01:01, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
This article from 2005 indicates that the Pristina municipality intends to erect a monument to the division, as well as the Second League of Prizren. Should this be mentioned under the "Legacy" section? 23 editor ( talk) 23:03, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
There are some sources which say that Himmler based the recruitment of
Gheg Albanians on racial theories which considered them as Aryans) also supported by some Italian anthropological researches. One of the sources is: Jonathan Trigg (1 April 2009).
Hitler's Jihadis: Muslim volunteers of the Waffen-SS. History Press. p. 146.
ISBN
978-1-86227-487-7. Retrieved 22 July 2013. ...sought to show the Ghegs of the north (in the south Albanians were from the Tosk tribe) were actually Aryans, this was...
. --
Antidiskriminator (
talk)
12:49, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Done
The article describes Skanderbeg as "...Albanian national hero .... who fought the Ottoman Turks in the 15th century"
The part "who fought the Ottoman Turks in the 15th century" is simplification which should be removed, or at least Turks replaced with Ottomans.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 11:18, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
Balli Kombetar according to plenty of sources collaborated with the Nazis. Not with Fascist Italians though, the statement that the Nazis engaged previous collaborators of the Italians such as Balli Kombetar, etc should be corrected.
The article
Albanian resistance during World War II clearly states them on the Nazi side from 1943 and on the other side before 1943.
Mondiad (
talk)
19:17, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
Maybe Operations, war crimes? Xx236 ( talk) 06:07, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
This text is unclear:
It sounds like the sequence for II Battalion in February 1945 was...
...but that seems implausible. Did they really go all the way north to Oder-Neisse only to come back down south weeks later? jnestorius( talk) 12:43, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved. EdJohnston ( talk) 19:00, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
21st Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Skanderbeg (1st Albanian) →
21st Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Skanderbeg – There are no other articles that could be referred to as "21st Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Skanderbeg", therefore the parenthetical disambiguator is unnecessary. For an example of an article about a military division that has rightly avoided unnecessary disambiguation, see
24th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Karstjäger.
Neelix (
talk)
20:04, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
Source | Names(s) or descriptions used |
---|---|
Abbott | first: SS-Mountain Division 'Skanderbeg'; next: the 'Skanderbeg' Division |
Ailsby | index: 21st SS Gebirgs Division Skanderbeg |
Bishop 2007 | 21st Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS |
Cappellano | both the SS volunteer divisions 21st Skandenberg and 22nd Maria Theresia |
Cohen | 21st SS "Skanderbeg" Division |
Dorril | the SS Skanderbeg Division |
Elsie | Skanderbeg SS Division |
Fischer | p.186: the SS "Skanderbeg" Division; p.224: the Twenty-first SS Division "Skanderbeg" |
Fisk | None |
Frank | Skanderbeg Waffen SS Mountain Division |
Mojzes | Skenderbeg SS Division |
Stein | 21st Waffen-Gebirgsdivision der SS "Skanderbeg" (alban. Nr. 1) |
Tomasevich (2001) | 21st SS Volunteer Mountain Division "Skanderbeg" |
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In 2016 Franziska A. Zaugg, Albanische Muslime in der Waffen-SS: Von "Großalbanien" zur Division "Skanderbeg", Paderborn: F. Schöningh was published, a Swiss Ph.D. thesis supervised by Stig Förster that won an award by the Fritz und Helga Exner-Stiftung. I recognize that this article was promoted to be a featured article in 2013. Still it features references to works by Roland Kaltenegger and Otto Kumm. I might refer to an older thread Talk:Artur_Phleps#Roland Kaltenegger and Otto Kumm for some explanation, why this is a problem. Kumm, e.g., is used here to narrate the retreat of the "Skanderbeg" and the "Prinz Eugen" in late 1944. Zaugg characterizes that retreat as "the last wave of violence" in the region and speaks of "war crimes" involving August Schmidhuber and Alfred Graf. The latter was indicted by the Yugoslavian military attorney in 1948. More accessible because it is in English is Xavier Bougarel et al., Muslim SS units in the Balkans and the Soviet Union, in: Jochen Böhler, Robert Gerwarth (eds.), The Waffen-SS. A European History, Oxford: Oxford UP 2017, pp. 252–283. That essay might be useful to provide some much needed context on inter-ethnic tensions and loyalties to explain the particular behavior of the Albanian soldiers.-- Assayer ( talk) 00:21, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
The black and white symbol in the infobox is a fictional image that has never been used in any historical context. There is no physical material evidence of the era that shows this symbol. The patch that I replaced it with is authentic and historically accurate. There are countless of image sources that prove this by simply doing a quick google image search of the words SS Skanderbeg Symbol. Kj1595 ( talk) 10:45, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
The websites aren't reliable. I don't like a general book on the Waffen SS much either. I suggest you try to track down this specialist academic source to settle the question authoritatively. I don't seem to have access to it. Zero talk 11:00, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
To editor Peacemaker67: The "Nazi salute" claim is OR. First, the original caption of the photo in the German Federal Archive says only "mit erhobenem Arm ab" (with his arm raised). Does the German Federal Archive not know what a Nazi salute looks like? Second, the given source (Fisk), besides being of dubious reliability, doesn't have the photo at all. The text mentions a photo with a Nazi salute, but we are not entitled to assume that the reference is to this particular photo rather than a different one. Third, just because Hitler was allowed to Heil Himself in sloppy fashion doesn't mean that anyone else was. The truth might well be that al-Husseini intended to give a Nazi salute but at the moment this is an unsourced claim disguised as a cheap shot. I can't help thinking of the famous photo of Netanyahu that Haaretz republished several weeks ago; see here. Zero talk 10:19, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Any doubt Fisk is talking about greeting this specific SS unit?Haj Amin, right hand raised in the Nazi salute, inspecting newly recruited Bosnian Muslims who had joind the Wehrmacht.
The Mufti, giving Nazi salute, reviewing Moslem SS troops, the picture is reproduced from the Berliner Illustrierte Zeitung
The Mufti of Jerusalem gives the Nazi salute, as company of Bosnian Muslim SS men pass in review . U . S . National Archives and Bundesarchiv
To editor Infinity Knight: You did a revert with "rv, see talk" but I can't find anything here that justifies it. Where is it? Surely you don't mean your assertion that SS members were allowed to use the Nazi salute and therefore (by what logic?) the mufti who was not an SS member must have been using it. He wasn't an imam integrated into the army either, so I don't know why you brought that up. Zero talk 02:14, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Peacemaker67 Yeoman says "in gratitude for Nazi "after Italy's capitulation, German forces invaded Albania (...)in gratitude to the Nazis for "liberation" from Slav rule, the Kosovars proposed that Albanians were "Aryans of Illyrian heritage" " this happened after Italian rule and should be placed in the background segment where it talks about the German occupation of Kosovo. I changed Skanderbeg from "George" to Gjergj because on his Wikipedia page, it says "Gjergj Kastrioti" in the lead. I can't find anything about "George Kastrioti" in Yeomans book. Durraz0 ( talk) 23:02, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
This article is an FA. That doesn't mean it is perfect, but changes need to be done carefully and using reliable sources. If you have changes, make sure you closely cite them using reliable sources. I have added Operation Rübezahl on the basis of a recent reliable source that mentions the involvement of the division in the first phase of the operation, which it states was called Operation Draufganger. If you have contrasting information from a reliable source regarding the two operations being completely separate, on Wikipedia we compare and contrast such information with information from other reliable sources, we don't decide for ourselves which reliable source is correct and change the article to suit. If you think I am wrong about the unreliability of thule-italia.com, read WP:RS and get a community opinion at WP:RSN. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 06:08, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
This link [8] shows the front cover of the book from which this image is supposed to be sourced. It clearly does not show the patch. It is also claimed that this source [9] also supports the image, but it is clearly not reliable. The image file also isn't properly licensed and cannot be used on an FA until it is. Fix up the licensing on the image file page, then bring it back. Edit-warring this image into the article will be reported as disruptive behaviour. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 10:48, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
I think the one from Keegan should be reinstated until one or both of these images is properly licensed, because at least it is from a reliable source and is properly licensed. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 11:11, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
Peacemaker67 I'm sorry are you complaining because the page is lacking a visual for the reader and I went ahead and took a photo with a cellphone. Uploaded to commons for public use. I then didn't know if it was reserved to I contributed and added two emblems as alternative emblems, just in case. But the Peacekeeper has to make things perfect to things that don't concern him at all and make things worst. Then, watch it get taken down because it's inconvenient? I'm sorry who are you? If this is a problem then find another platform, because anyone is allowed to add or edit words, references, images, and other media here. What is contributed is more important than who contributes it. Oh, I took that photo with my phone 5 minutes prior to uploading it then just added a quick file name thus posted on this article. I allowed my photo to be used for public use, was licensed to me? It said that on commons if you slowed down. But I apologize I wanted to upload photos for readers and neglected filling out anything more than the required field. But you should post on the article that everything must be in compliance with your standards and not Wikipedia's because you're the first person to have a problem with it. "Edit-warring this image into the article will be reported as disruptive behaviour." I'm sorry you cannot do that. You do not have any or enough evidence to fabricate a claim and falsely report something, due to your own ignorance and someone contributing other than you. You're not utilizing your resources properly, threatening with a wrongful report and an exploit to the report system. Suspicion alone with your ignorance does not give you the right to make false reports. This is Wikipedia, where everyone is allowed to contribute. So you have no jurisdiction to moderate any page on Wikipedia and fabricate a false claim because it wasn't you. So how ironic your name is peacemaker and you're abusing a report button due to your own ignorance and violating, what Wikipedia was built on. But I can see you served in the United Nations you've been indoctrinated into thinking you're always above the law and enforcing rules out of your legal and respected jurisdiction. Referring me to this talk box and seeing your past in regards to questioning people and I'm assuming my intelligence in personal content and trying to ask But I can understand you're very OCD with this page, being so authentic. So I'll just delete the photo from the commons because I posted the emblem at the bottom of the infobox as well as an alternative photo to give a reader at least a visual until you could find your rare photo with copyright approval. But I'll just forget I stumbled across this article, I don't want to contribute to a toxic community that worries about something so absurd, and being so aggressive to write this out for a page dedicated to a bunch of racist obsolete Albanian's, is too concerning. Like what do you want me to cite my own photograph I took 5 minutes before uploading and put in the description. "papa anton was a partisan who did not like invaders. He had a weird habit of collecting items off the dead soldiers he slayed. After the years passed it is now in my possession." I'll for now on always put that as the description and I'll ping you to show you every time.
Ktrimi991 Thanks for the ping made me laugh the guy who partook in illegally bombing my country, and now is violating rules outside his jurisdiction still 30 years later OhioGopnik ( talk) 09:25, 22 January 2022 (UTC)}}
Just read WP:TAG. When you have an image that has licensing that actually passes muster for inclusion in an FA, come back, happy to discuss. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 08:40, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
Hello and Happy New Year
Anyone hanging around who would know if
this would be acceptable to add to the infobox, or is
this preferred? Thank you for your time.
Lotje (
talk)
12:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
I am not advocating adding an image. I'd be happy to leave it as is, as it is the source of fitful edit-warring in any case. If someone else finds one with an acceptable source and licensing, I certainly wouldn't oppose its inclusion. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 01:14, 5 January 2023 (UTC)