This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
current talk page.
The article was repeatedly tagged for speedy deletion by a vandal, who has since been blocked, and will not actually be deleted.
This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because there are many sources and information about it and we will try to add the latest details on this page. --
RVBILLIS-99 (
talk)
18:36, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
EDIT: Will try to archive the references via Internet Archive... ...wish me luck.
This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because... this is a potentially historically significant event due to the deaths of Prigozhin and Utkin, pertaining to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, as well as the June 2023 Wagner uprising in Russia. More information will likely be divulged over time, and the page will likely continue to be fleshed out until then. --
Ghostlynewspaper4488 (
talk)
18:37, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because... it is talking about an event that a lot of credible claims (
BBC,
CNN,
Sky News) are talking about. I have read the Speedy Deletion Criteria and I don't see one that this article is violating. --
Maksiwood 2 (
talk)
18:39, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
The only criteria that I believe it comes close to violating is A7 which does not apply to the article as stated by the 11 note.
Maksiwood 2 (
talk)
18:43, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
This article should NOT be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because it concerns a confirmed aviation incident or accident. The relative rarity of such events supports the existence of articles about them. There is precedent for articles about comparable events (i.e. comparable in the number of casualties and the fact that the involved aircraft took catastrophic damage). — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Exhaustedyak (
talk •
contribs)
18:41, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Done Thank you for pointing out these changes: although minor, these grammatical issues affect the readability of the article. —C.Fred (
talk)
11:14, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Minor punctuation mistake
At the very start of the Reactions heading, it says:
The disaster's coverage was confined to a 30-second report on that evening's edition of Vremya, the flagship news program of the state television channel,
Channel One. .
As you can see it has two dots at the end, which I'm pretty sure is a mistake.
This
edit request to
2023 Tver plane crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
After reference to Wagner's assertion that the plane was shot down by Russian air defense, request to add a line noting that at least one other Russian non-state news source disputes that claim, arguing that it may have been an explosion started from onboard the plane, as videos show no trail of smoke consistent with a ground missile and eye-witnesses have not reported seeing any missile.
Reasoning: since nothing is confirmed right now, it doesn't seem correct to only include one possible scenario when others are available.
RabsLanding (
talk)
19:08, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Not sure if Telegram links are allowed as standalone sources, I'm looking at the Meduza website to see if I can find a source there to corroborate the claim.
Chaotic Enby (
talk)
19:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Patrick Ryder's opinion seems out of place in "Investigations". I think it should be moved to "Reactions". More importantly, I can't find it in the NYTimes cite (because it's a stupid fucking updating timeline where it's impossible to link to anything permanently).
93.72.49.123 (
talk)
20:05, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 August 2023
This
edit request to
2023 Tver plane crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Please add in Investigation section that Molecular-Genetic tests had been conducted on the remains were found out matching to the Flight list.
DitorWiki (
talk)
14:46, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
You need to provide a reference as per
WP:BURDEN We normally only list notable people who die in crashes, ie people with bios already on Wikipedia. -
Ahunt (
talk)
21:01, 23 August 2023 (UTC).
EDIT: For later context: above reply was changed from saying that I have to provide sources to this. /edit
This does not demonstrate the notability of any passengers beyond Prigozhin and Utkin. Those two are already included in the article.
Dieknon (
talk)
21:05, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
He probably did so prior to becoming aware of the fact that you've replied to him. I shall format it to be less confusing.
User:Ahunt, I am going to edit your comment to be in line with the talk page guidelines, so this is your chance to object.
Dieknon (
talk)
21:42, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Add information about the likelihood of it being shot down.
Add a small bit of text which explains that "Given the presumed maximum altitude of the plane, it is possible that plane was shot down due to the capability of active Russian air defense systems being able to shoot the plane down."
The average Wikipedia reader will find the information that "Russia has anti-air missiles" pretty damn obvious. This addition would bloat the article and give
undue weight to the Russian missile hypothesis. Yes, it could be a missile. And we can add more to the article once major news sources start talking about it. But they haven't started yet. So for now, we wait.
According to CNN the transponders of the plane stopped transmitting data around 6:11 p.m. local time, according to flight tracking data from FlightRadar24, which can be fully accessed with a paid membership.
[1],
[2]GoodSimon (
talk)
21:58, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Shootdown?
New photos of the aftermath of the aircraft shows some tiny holes similar like a missile Hit, Like
Siberian 1812,
MH 17 and
PS752, plus the vertical stabilizer was found some kilometers away from the crash site, getting this info by Denys Davydov:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H2FGud37RQ
Even then it’s not us editors job to make OR. Let proper analysts do the thing and make the speculation if necessary.
Borgenland (
talk)
01:44, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 August 2023
So does this mean here in this article, we should call out the names of Prigozhin and his founding partner of the Wagner group (the partner's war name is actually Wagner and reason for Wagner Group's name). And then just list that x number of fellow passagnegers who were Wagner members and then that 3 crew members also perished in the downing of this jet? Captain, co-pilot and the stewardess.
2A02:A03F:A109:C900:6CC2:6904:6668:EED0 (
talk)
13:56, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
"Missing bodies"
Do not say there are two "missing" bodies. This is not the languages being used by the sources. There were 10 listed on the manifest, with eight bodies being accounted for.
Schierbecker (
talk)
20:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
"All ten passengers' remains were successfully recovered.[18]"
This conflicts with the manifest which has 7 passengers and 3 crew.
Also, the attributed source is a BBC article that itself attributes to unnamed reports (BBC is getting sloppy), so the source chain is broken; one cannot determine if all bodies were on the plane, if they were the same people as on the manifest, how many bodies have been recovered sofar, or who they are.
Also the statement conflicts with Shierbecker's above point of "There were 10 listed on the manifest, with eight bodies being accounted for". — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2a02:a470:54d5:1:2eb7:e95e:e7a:99a2 (
talk)
@
Lklundin:I inserted "apparent" twice in the Reactions section. @
IanDBeacon: Please wait for consensus
based on
reliable sources before changing to wording that Prigozhin's death is definite. There are plenty of clues that, per common sense, strongly point to a definite death (Wagner supporters putting a lit cross at his headquarters - they would likely have been contacted privately by Prigozhin if he were not in the crash; no online sign of life from Prigozhin himself; all ten bodies recovered but Russian authorities not denying his death in order to pretend he was someone insignificant or to delay his martyrdom status). However, making that interpretation would be
WP:OR.
Boud (
talk)
08:29, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
As for when this page can write that Prigozhin (and Utkin) are dead, we need to align with especially the page of the
Yevgeny Prigozhin, which as a
WP:BLP has a high threshold for a
WP:RS regarding their death. In other words, as long as there is a "presumed"-template on the Prigozhin page we need to also presume their death here.
Lklundin (
talk)
08:53, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
S-300
The maximum range of an
S-300 missile system is around 400km, the crash site is roughly equidistance at 200km between Putins property in Valday, Novgorod Oblast and Moscow, so missile systems defending either could have shot the plane down, but 200km is a long range and vapour trails could be expected.
Ânes-pur-sàng (
talk)
08:55, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
From the many vidoes already posted on YouTube, that all align/concur and not have immediate signs of editing as they align, there we do matter of fact see the vapour trails as exact fingerprint of a typical S-300 missile!
Pls see the french avaiation specialist and national tv who just uploaded this on YouTube:
Prigojine est mort, son avion aurait été abattu par un missile - YouTube
At 2 mins 03 seconds, you see the frames, where we see both the missile propulsion vapour trail, and you also see on same still frames the exact smoke you also get from the mid-air explosion, when this missile takes out an airplane!
Please also observe that Russia have several of these S-300 launch ramps on mobile platforms. From the vapour trail and the jet explosion and debris parts, it looks as if the S-300 AA system was in very close proximity on the ground, just below the jet where it past over on its trajectory to St Petersburg. Please also note that Moscow Air traffic control had asked unusually the jet flight crew to take a flight corridor several miles off but still parallel to the standard flight corridor used between Moscow and St Peterburg.
2A02:A03F:A109:C900:6CC2:6904:6668:EED0 (
talk)
13:22, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Official statements and reports aside (Russian and otherwise), we should only have a line or two about media speculation. Ukraine has something to say? Fine. France? Also noteworthy. The former head of the Russian desk of MI5? Lots of ex-government officials on the airwaves. Highly placed sources? I would tread lightly.
kencf0618 (
talk)
10:22, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Agreed. What I’m seeing is pretty much Telegram rumormongering getting added here as soon as a mainstream source quotes it.
If a reliable source is stating that certain less reliable sources made certain statements, then the only reliably sourced statement that can be made is that certain statements were made by certain less reliable sources.
w:ru is giving the coordinates as {{coord|57|43|00|N|33|58|00|E}}, which sounds reasonable (no seconds, so within a mile or so) but is unsourced.
Moscow Mule (
talk)
16:14, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Putin makes first remarks on Prigozhin since plane crash, calling Wagner boss "a man of difficult fate"
From CNN's Anna Chernova, Katharina Krebs and Radina Gigova
In his first remarks since the
plane crash that presumably killed
Yevgeny Prigozhin, Russian President Vladimir Putin said the Wagner founder was "a man of difficult fate, but talented."
Putin said Thursday he sends condolences to "Wagner employees" on board a plane that crashed on Wednesday.
"First of all, I want to express my sincere condolences to the families of all the victims, this is always a tragedy," he said.
"Preliminary information suggests that Wagner Group employees were also on board," Putin added during a meeting with the head of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic Denis Pushilin at the Kremlin.
"I would like to note that these people have made a significant contribution to our common cause in the fight against the neo-Nazi regime," Putin said, referring to Russia's war in Ukraine. The Russian leader has repeatedly and falsely accused the Ukrainian government of neo-Nazism.
Putin also said Russia's Investigative Committee is conducting an investigation.
None of that seems to bear on the "Is he really dead" question. Let the analysts and journalists continue doing their jobs. Who knows how much of an answer we'll ever really get.
199.208.172.35 (
talk)
17:03, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
From the article: "Following the incident, the National Resistance Center of Ukraine reported that convoys of Wagner personnel and vehicles were seen leaving their bases in Belarus and heading towards the Russian border, with the Belarusian Special Operations Forces attempting to intercept them"
I tried following the citation, and it takes me to a very long feed instead of an individual article. (The Web Archive version is currently giving me "503 Service Unavailable ... No server is available to handle this request.") I tried doing Ctrl+F to verify the statement, but I'm having trouble finding it. Can the person who added this citation give a more precise citation that takes us directly to the relevant article (instead of a long feed of articles), or give a quote that we can do a Ctrl+F on.
Slieredna (
talk)
23:05, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
I actually found it referenced in today's (24 Aug) ISW report. But they assessed they are returning to Russia to disband, and made no mention of Belarusian special forces:
(
edit conflict) Thanks for raising this; I
removed a similar claim earlier today that attempted to show effects that were not subtantiated by the source, and I will go ahead and remove this one too. What's worse is that I was able to make it to the second page of the feed and there is another headline showing that forces are not moving, so whoever wants to re-add this will clearly need a better source. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (
talk)
23:25, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Proof & evidence, and a notice about Russian state security modus operandi
Firstly, there's a need for absolute, total, uncensored proof & evidence (visual confirmation) of the two main people of interest, Prigozhin and Utkin.
I don't expect the Russians nor Western intelligence to provide such materials, however, for this article's relevancy everything must be tackled with “alleged” and “supposedly”.
Secondly, people with an interest in these matters forget or genuinely don't know how the Russian state security organs (“gosbezopasnosti”) operate. “Vranyo”, “dezinformatsiya”, “zachistka”, “mokroye delo”, “gruz dvesti”, “eskalatsiya radi/dlya deeskalatsii”, and “voron voronu glaz ne vyklyuyet” (alternatively “volk ne kusayet drugogo volka”), are the name(s) of their game.
For all intents & purposes, it isn't outside the realm of possibilities that while the news broke out about the plane being shot or a bomb doing the job that, somewhere in Fiji or Dubai, a Russian man ordering by gesturing with his left four-fingered hand, for himself & his friend fresh out after his tattoo removal surgery, another round of vodka, watching the news, laughing together. A phonecall interrupts their R&R, reminding them that their families & some of their friends will soon join them at their location, pension retreat.
Trexerman (
talk)
09:23, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
Military leaders who tried (allegedly in Lin's case) to rebel against their autocratic leader, and met an untimely, suspicious death in a plabe crash
Bremps...01:22, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
That would make sense, as it does relate, however, this will also prompt everyone to add every other political/military officials fatality by crashed aircraft to the 'see also'.
Vatily.varistokovko (
talk)
03:05, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
If so, it would make more sense to link to the subject of Putin's regime of 'Fenestration' as it is now termed. Namely that known leaders getting in Putin's personal way, has an overwhelming probability of terminating their lives in unusual ways. Fenestration is direct when falling out of windows of high rise buildings. Tea and what appear to be 'suicides' are other methods. But this is best described in seperate dedicated article on the Putin Purge.
2A02:A03F:A109:C900:6CC2:6904:6668:EED0 (
talk)
14:01, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Other Victims
List of other passengers and crew (not sure about the proper anglicization of these): Passengers
Wikipedia articles on plane crashes usually do not include detailed passenger lists. Unless all of these people are notable somehow, I am against the idea of including them in the article.
Dieknon (
talk)
21:04, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Articles about public-transport flights (that is, scheduled airliner flights) generally don't list all the passengers, indeed - because they have nothing in common (beyond the shared misfortune of being on the same flight). But for notable general-aviation flights, where the occupants usually do share a pre-existing relationship, we very often do list them. Even if the individuals in question aren't notable themselves (or are only tangentially (WP:NOTINHERIT), due to their relations with the notable persons on the flight). Some examples:
Otis Redding#Death - we list all the musicians, the band's valet, and the single pilot
It's very likely that all the people aboard this flight are employees of Wagner or Prigozhin, or are friends or other associates of the notable people on the flight. None of these people just rolled up at Sheremetyevo, bought a ticket, and were surprised to find they were the row behind Prigozhin.
That said, we shouldn't add them now, because a) it's discomfiting to use TASS as a source, even for official statements and b) because we can't yet say who these people are and why they were on the flight. But when both of these issues are adequately solved, I think we would normally list all those onboard. --
Finlay McWalter··–·Talk20:48, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
I disagree unless the other people are notable out of the interest of housekeeping – I think if we list the names, it will add length and potential clutter that wouldn't add to the understanding of the flight. -
AquilaFasciata (
talk |
contribs)
20:50, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Support listing the names, at least the passengers. It is because of who was on the plane that this crash is primarily notable. There's only 7 passengers, so adding them is not unwieldy. There's already a good amount of secondary reporting in
RS about the identities and roles of the passengers, including several who were notable enough to be sanctioned by the U.S. for their Wagner roles. See
[5][6][7][8], among others. At the very least, we should have the name and one-line bio for the notable passengers.
Longhornsg (
talk)
21:19, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
I concur. The main reason this is at the top of the news is because of who is believed dead, not because a plane crashed.
Nalixar (
talk)
17:22, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Wingframe shows possible damage via anti-aircraft fire?
Dont know how I can upload photos to here? But we have already a few photos that private citizens have posted from Russia, who came to the debris before authorities yet on site to close it off. One of those shows a side panel/door from the plane, with shrapnel damage that is similar to anti-aircraft missile damage. So we talk here about like A300 type of ground to air defense missile.
2A02:A03F:A109:C900:6CC2:6904:6668:EED0 (
talk)
13:13, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
You probably meant S300 and not A300? But in any case, the trail fumes we have seen from videos recording the downing of the plane does not indicate S300 type of AA missile usage. But instead the SA-19 Grison missiles you find on the 2S6M Tunguska AA vehicle, which Russia has many of in the area and they are highly mobile.
2A02:A03F:A109:C900:6CC2:6904:6668:EED0 (
talk)
09:33, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
SkyNews has a longer video segment, where they show live video from the crash site(s). Here it is 100% clear that it is the tail's vertical rudder section that lays on the ground, where its around 2km away from the rest of the plane, which came down in almost one piece.
You can recognize the vertical rudder shape, if you look up how the plane normally looks like. It is the only area, where you have that specific tube-shape at end, and the painting pattern with blue and the white segments matches this also.
The aviation/military expert in the studio also highlights that an onboard bomb would typically destroy the airplane in midair into many smaller pieces than what we saw. And also that the smoke trail vapor we see in the sky on the video-recording just as it happened in the sky, s typical signature of an anti-air missile had been fired towards the plane to take it down.
2A02:A03F:A109:C900:6CC2:6904:6668:EED0 (
talk)
13:15, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
The word killed does not on its own equate a murder, it simply means to cause the death of a living being. I support your motion in refraining from stating an assassination as fact, though we should still use presumably assassinate.
NorthStarMI (
talk)
07:11, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Support move to
2023 Russia Embraer Legacy 600 crash, this is definitely better, it should have the aircraft name rather than "plane." This is necessary to distinguish this event from any other plane crashes in the region. The "crash" part might later be changed as well pending more word from credible sources (i.e. The Pentagon confirming it as "sabotage" or "assassination" etc.}
Alpacaaviator (
talk)
17:04, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
The location doesn't seem to be the important part, at least compared to the significance of the passengers. I would prefer a title that reflects this.
Nalixar (
talk)
17:33, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Oppose and suggest a speedy close while information still comes in. This is premature and guaranteed to end with a closure of
WP:TRAINWRECK given no alternative title is suggested. Let more information come in. The current title is simple, accurate, and makes clear which crash is being discussed. That said, I have no opinion on a possible move to
2023 Tver Oblast plane crash as basically the equivalent of the current title if people really want to include "Oblast." Oppose anything else for the moment.
SnowFire (
talk)
16:30, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
"Tver" and "Tver Oblast" are different things. To confuse them is a mistake, plain and simple. Anyone knowing Russian will confirm this.
Triggerhippie4 (
talk)
16:56, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
Support move to
2023 Wagner business jet crash or maybe 2023 Russia business jet crash per
WP:COMMONNAME and
WP:CONCISE. I'm aware of
WP:AVTITLE; however, as others have pointed out, "Tver" is somewhat ambiguous (not to mention obscure), and I 'd argue that "Embraer Legacy 600" is equally obscure to those unfamiliar with aviation. Mainstream media sources overwhelmingly refer to the event as the "Russia" or "Wagner" "business jet crash" or "plane crash"; a quick Google search bears this out. Of these terms, "business jet" sounds more encyclopedic and "Russia" is too ambiguous, because numerous bizjets will likely crash in Russia in 2023.
Carguychris (
talk)
20:53, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
"Plane" should not be in the title at all, it should at least be "airplane" or "business jet" if people are opposed to "Embraer Legacy." I still argue that there should be something discerning it from other plane crashes.
Alpacaaviator(
talk)
22:22, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
I think "airplane" is too ambiguous, and a quick informal survey of family members reveals that nobody knows what an Embraer Legacy is, despite having listened (or at least pretended to listen) to me yammer about aircraft for years. I strongly support "
business jet crash", regardless of whether it's ultimately Tver, Russia, or Wagner. "Helicopter crash" is widely used in Wikipedia article titles for similar reasons, so it's already an established practice to name the aircraft class rather than the precise make and model.
Carguychris (
talk)
22:40, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
Support
2023 Tver Oblast plane crash. Concise and accurate. And no, 'plane' isn't slang. It is a word in common usage, unambiguous in context, and ubiquitous in most varieties of English, as a simple Google search will readily confirm. Or indeed, a simple check of the titles for sources currently cited in the article: Financial Times, NYT, Sky News, Telegraph, Newsweek, BBC, et, etc, etc...
AndyTheGrump (
talk)
23:20, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
A Google news search for "Tver Oblast plane crash" returns 17,900 results, while "Wagner plane crash" returns 73,700 results. Per
WP:COMMONNAME, Wagner is clearly the more prominent name.
Carguychris (
talk)
18:27, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
Oppose any names including "Russia". We're talking about the largest country in the world by area, so this would be even broader and imprecise than Tver (or Tver Oblast, whichever one it is). For comparison we don't name any article about air crashes in the United States as, say for example "2023 United States plane crash" or "2023 American plane crash" or the like. No opinions on the other names suggested.
S5A-0043Talk05:20, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
As I write this, it's not yet been firmly established that Prigozhin was actually aboard the aircraft, and the crash may have also resulted in the deaths of several other Wikinotable figures.
Carguychris (
talk)
18:40, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
I don't know why there are two threads about a possible move, but I'll repeat what I just wrote above, which is that the year is totally unnecessary, both as a disambiguator and per
WP:AVTITLE. --
Kicking222 (
talk)
13:08, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
Why are you disambiguating for something that has never happened? If another Embraer Legacy 600 gets shot down, then disambiguate.
Kicking222 (
talk)
15:03, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
CommentWP:AVTITLE says it applies to accidents, and I haven't heard of anyone who thinks this was an accident. We don't know for certain that it was shot down, rather than having a bomb placed on board. Naming precedent in such cases is unclear, at least to me. When it is well established that a plane was shot down, commercial flights seem to get articles named with the flight designation (airline plus flight number), and military incidents get titles like
1991 Azerbaijani Mil Mi-8 shootdown. I guess I would leave it where it is until shootdown is confirmed. But
2023 Wagner business jet crash would be good too. --
Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (
talk)
19:36, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
"I guess I would leave it where it is." The current title is factually incorrect, which is the most important issue of all in this discussion. The distance between Tver and the site of the crash near Kuzhenkino is approximately 150 kms, or 100 miles, you can see it on the map. Someone confused Tver with Tver Oblast (different things).
Triggerhippie4 (
talk)
20:26, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
Strongly concur, and I would argue that using Tver Oblast in the title is inherently imprecise, as it's roughly the size of Maine, New Brunswick, or the entire island of Ireland, and since it lies under a busy air corridor between Moscow and the Baltic, it's a virtual certainty that multiple aircraft will crash there in 2023, leading to the need for clunky additional wording to disambiguate the title.
2023 Wagner business jet crash disambiguates it much more concisely.
Carguychris (
talk)
23:09, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
2023 Wagner plane crash is also fine. I oppose 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash as Tver Oblast is not the focus/importance of this article and is the size of Maine; the focus is on Wagner
Aaron Liu (
talk)
16:39, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Comment I prefer the more accurate "Tver Oblast" over "Tver" as the crash location is about 150 km away from the city, as pointed out above. "Kuzhenkino" is also acceptable. I personally prefer titles that omit "Embraer Legacy 600" as the exact model of the plane doesn't seem particularly important to readers, and it seems obscure to anyone but aviation experts, although I acknowledge that including it is part of a guideline. But overall I would be happiest with a title that mentions "Wagner" (or "Prigozhin"), as that is by far the most noteworthy aspect of the crash.
98.170.164.88 (
talk)
00:57, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
It's not just him, there were a lot of other Wagner people on that jet. "Assassination" is also unconfirmed; if we do use one of these I'd rather use "Death".
Aaron Liu (
talk)
14:55, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
There's also Valery Checkhalov and 2 Wagner veterans. I'd rather go with 2023 Wagner business jet crash as there are too many people here.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
15:10, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
Support move to
2023 Wagner business jet crash as it conveys what is most notable about the topic. People come to the article primarily because it was a plane carrying Wagner leaders, or because it was likely an assassination of the occupants by agents of Putin, not because it happened in Tver Oblast. -
Abovfold (
talk)
16:05, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
This is not a trainwreck. A trainwreck is when a couple pages of several merit are put in the same discussion. This is just one page and is not eligible for a procedural keep. We might need an RfC on whether to use Tver Oblast plane or Wagner business jet though.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
18:47, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
However that doesn't mean it should be the outcome. "2023 Wagner business jet crash" supporters haven't engaged in much discussion with "2023 Tver Oblast plane crash" supporters, so we'd likely need a separate discussion, maybe an RfC to decide which name to use unless there's more discussion.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
22:40, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
It's a solid way to decide candidates for the names. Only four titles have seen support from more than 2 people, two of which from more than 3.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
22:36, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
I agree that it's clunky, but it's perhaps the best compromise between
WP:COMMONNAME and
WP:AVTITLE. I'm not absolutely opposed to including the location in the title; I just think that the location by itself fails to convey what is most salient about this crash (Wagner and Prigozhin). I agree with your earlier suggestion for an RfC.
Carguychris (
talk)
17:05, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Support move, but to what? "Tver" is the oblast's name, and the local community where it happened is called "Kuzhenkino". We don't know, though, just what happened. Yes, everyone suspects that the aircraft was deliberately downed, quite likely on Vladimir Putin's orders, but are we likely to have that confirmed for us in the short term? Until the cause is established, I suggest a name such as Kuzhenkino incident.
Kelisi (
talk)
19:24, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
Support move to
2023 Tver Oblast plane crash per reasons described. Other names are too specific and suggest a relationship between the occupants and why their plane went down. Yes, we will probably soon have very good evidence that the crash was a targeted bring-down, but as of right now this is still mostly (very informed) conjecture. ~
Pbritti (
talk)
17:20, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
How does including the fact that Wagner people were on the plane, which is what gave this event importance other than being the plane's model's second crash in history, suggest a relationship?
Aaron Liu (
talk)
17:34, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
How so? Tver Oblast is the size of Maine and is very imprecise. Unless you already know the plane crashed in Tver Oblast (which isn't the case in my local bubble) you won't look at that title and know that's the one where Wagner leaders died.
Aaron Liu (
talk)
17:52, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
It's precise because all the passengers were Wagner. Does "too precise" make any sense, like saying that calling the late Queen by the name Queen Elizabeth II is "too precise" on account of the number II?
Ericoides (
talk)
18:17, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
FlightRadar24 have made a dedicated page on their website now, where they have published their detailed recordings tracking this last flight of the airplane. Here you can see detailed data points on altitude and vertical change rates and you can also download the data points:
"Russian Legacy 600 crashes near Tver | Flightradar24 Blog"
Please note also that FlightRadar actually notices that the plane on that day did exceptionally not transmit its geo location coordinates! But that they got these through interpolation from their other sources on the ground.
2A02:A03F:A109:C900:6CC2:6904:6668:EED0 (
talk)
10:28, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I feel like it should be held off until more information comes out. It hasn't even been confirmed that the plane was shot down.
Maksiwood 2 (
talk)
18:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Wait until it's been confirmed if it was actually shot down or not (or at least, until there's a consensus in reliable sources; actual confirmation may be hard to come by).
NekoKatsun (
nyaa)
18:16, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest, once this is confirmed, mentioning Wagner or the plane's owner into the title, this seems more meaningful that the location (this is assuming we reach consensus where we can reasonably expect the plane was taken down to get at the passengers, not on account of where the plane was located: it's fair to expect the event likely relates to the owners of the plane). On shootdown vs plane crash, I'd weakly support shootdown, and I agree on waiting for confirmation
Mlkj (
talk)
18:29, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
I concur - The location and the date are of secondary importance to the impact of the event, the persons involved, and the possibility of foul play.
Nalixar (
talk)
13:11, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Support - Judging by the new photos f he crash, its becoming more evident that the embraer was shootdown, but the investigation has just started, but i do support this name change
Lucasoliveira653 (
talk)
01:47, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Agreed, if confirmed within reasonable doubt that the plane was deliberately shot down/bombed... Then the wiki article should include the name of Prigozhin in its title. It was his std plane for all his personal travel. And his presense in the jet being the reason for downing of the airplane.
2A02:A03F:A109:C900:6CC2:6904:6668:EED0 (
talk)
13:34, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Oppose renaming for now, and strongly oppose any inclusion of the crash cause or of the victims' names in the article title (especially a speculative one when the actual cause has not been officially determined). I recommend to wait with any rename, esp. given that the current title is permitted per
WP:AVTITLE. —
kashmīrīTALK16:53, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Once again, though there's no need to do this immediately. This just happened. Right now new information is coming out constantly, things are being corrected and changed, and the best plan is to wait for things to settle somewhat before deciding.
NekoKatsun (
nyaa)
17:38, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
What is with people wanting "2023" in the title? If no other notable plane crashes / shootdowns / whatever have occurred in Tver or with this type of plane, it's unnecessary.
WP:AVTITLE states that the year can be added, not that it must, and this is not a must. --
Kicking222 (
talk)
13:02, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
In the future will people more likely be looking for "that 2023 plane crash that killed Prigozhin & Utkin", or "that one time an EL 600 crashed"? –
SJ +10:27, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Support Article titles should have a nod to the future and having the date in the title makes it easier to distinguish it from future events (even if such events may or may not be likely. I would support have the year included.
Jurisdicta (
talk)
11:27, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
Death could imply assassination or accident, and I believe we have confirmation via DNA testing that Prigozjin is dead.
Nalixar (
talk)
13:13, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Are we sure that it was heading for St. Petersburg? Other planes travelling from Moscow to Petersburg at the same time travelled at a different angle. To me it seems that the plane's route was most consistent with flights to and from Kaliningrad.
Swzielinski (
talk)
18:03, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
The sources listed in this article only say "most likely" and present no further sources themselves. Why would the plane not take the shortest route? It doesn't feel right for me.
Swzielinski (
talk)
18:23, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
This is a breaking news story. We won't be sure about a lot of things. If it hasn't been confirmed, it should be added that "The plane was believed to be heading for St. Petersburg..."
Maksiwood 2 (
talk)
18:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
1. The flight of RA02795 which ended in the crash, took place on 23.08.2023
2. The flight of RA02795 Moscow-St. Petersburg, which took place on 06.07.2023
3. The flight of AFL030 Moscow-St. Petersburg, took place on 23.08.2023
4. The flight of AUL253 Moscow-Kaliningrad, took place on 23.08.2023
Looks like the flights to Kaliningrad and to St. Petersburg actually fly parallel to each other for a part of the flight. I think that if the plane were to fly to St.Petersburg, it would've already turned more to the north like the other routes.
I don't think it's currently possible to know 100% that the plane headed for St. Petersburg or Kaliningrad. We will have to wait for more data.
Swzielinski (
talk)
19:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
This is interesting analysis, and may even be correct, but it’s
original research and therefore I don’t think we can/should include it in the article. If you can find a reliable source that says the destination was Kaliningrad then of course it could be incorporated into the page. For now I think we won’t be able to say much other than “probably St. Petersburg”, as that seems to be what sources are reporting.
98.170.164.88 (
talk)
19:41, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
A very interesting fact as documented by French aviation specialist "Prigojine est mort, son avion aurait été abattu par un missile - YouTube", then this plane was asked by Moscow air controllers to move a bit to the side of the traditional flight path corridor when flying to St Petersburg. Hence the plane was is a 'safe distance' away from the several other normal planes also in the air and on that route at same time.
You can also verify this by looking up overlays of flight paths from all the many planes that daily is navigating this same route. Prigojine's jet was distinctly several airmiles off this normal route. And check his jet's previous flights, again, they all used to follow the normal route. It is relevant, as we also have images from several sources that point towards a Russian anti-air missile was fired towards the jet. A jet of this built does not disintegrate mid-air without external catastrophic event. And we have image in this article already of side panel/door from jet that has the signature shrapnel marks from a missile.
2A02:A03F:A109:C900:6CC2:6904:6668:EED0 (
talk)
13:08, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Sorry, but I do not speak French. Does the specialist present some sort of audio recording or other proof for the "asked by Moscow ATC to move"?
Swzielinski (
talk)
14:11, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
"Grey Zone said so" is not proof. Prigozhin dying is an extraordinary event. If it is confirmed, every news outlet will be writing about it. Not just some guys on Telegram.
Dieknon (
talk)
19:49, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
"The Grey Zone" is not "just some guys on Telegram", they are tied to Wagner.
This is not confirmation. Anyone can presume anyone dead. Only when BBC posts a story titled "Prigozhin dead" or "Prigozhin confirmed dead", that's when it's confirmed.
Dieknon (
talk)
19:47, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Hence why we shouldn't trust them. This could reasonably be Prigozhin faking his own death. It would then be in Grey Zone's interest to lie that he died.
Dieknon (
talk)
19:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
The BBC has confirmed that Grey Zone said that Prigozhin died. This is not the same thing as BBC confirming that Prigozhin died.
Dieknon (
talk)
19:52, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I feel the location shouldn't even be in the title since the notability of this article is in that Prigozhin and Utkin were on it. I wouldn't have even known this had happened in Tver if it weren't for the title. It should be something along the lines of "2023 Wagner business jet/plane crash"
Ashleighhhhh (
talk)
00:39, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Missile Theory
Reuters This states that it is unlikely that Prigozhins plane was shot down by anti-aircraft missles/systems according to information available at this time.
Narshka (
talk)
00:50, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
This changes title and trans-title; adds last, first, author-link, and date; and removes publisher. I used Google Translate to translate the title; is that okay, and should I mark it somehow?
Second change
After "The crash prompted speculation that the jet was destroyed on the orders of Russian president Vladimir Putin, after Prigozhin had led the Wagner Group rebellion two months prior.", add the following citation:
Done Next time, please be so kind and indicate precisely what changes you are asking for (e.g.: Please replace the infobox image with......, caption: ............). This will help editors to see request details and decide more easily whether the proposed change is a constructive one. Thank you. —
kashmīrīTALK22:18, 13 September 2023 (UTC)