While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or
poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see
this noticeboard.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Brazil, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Brazil and
related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BrazilWikipedia:WikiProject BrazilTemplate:WikiProject BrazilBrazil articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
This article is within the
scope of the WikiProject Law Enforcement. Please
Join,
Create, and
Assess.Law EnforcementWikipedia:WikiProject Law EnforcementTemplate:WikiProject Law EnforcementLaw enforcement articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
sociology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology articles
doing a first pass. I am pretty familiar with the events of the coup but haven't followed the judicial proceedings. Bottom line, if I introduce an error, feel free to correct it without consulting me. My primary question at the moment involves the attempt to suppress the Anderson Torres document. My change of "requested" to "moved" assumed that this was a formal court filing.
Elinruby (
talk)
21:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Elinruby I believe that it was a formal court filling. “Pediu" in Portuguese maybe translated into “asked”, “requested”, or, in this case, “moved”. That's depends on how to deal with the ambiguity.
Erick Soares3 (
talk)
21:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
if it was a legal filing then move is correct. Not that requested is exactly wrong and the machine translation did its job by choosing the most frequent usage. But if it was a legal filing then "move" is more correct. That is what I meant by possibly introducing error.
Elinruby (
talk)
22:35, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Needs English-language sources
they do exist, but I need to do a couple of things before it gets dark. Will work on this a bit later if nobody else is on it by then
Some terms in the Brazilian article are questionably linked in the Portuguese article, and we shouldn't automatically pick up those links on our translation. For example, estado de defesa is something defined in article 136 of the Brazilian Constitution; in pt-wiki, it is pipe-linked to
pt:Estado de exceção, a theory by German jurist Carl Schmitt, and in our article to
State of exception, in section
§ Draft of the coup. Does the Brazilian Constitution's article 136 really come from a German jurist of the 1920s? Maybe, but there's no citation here for that (there, neither) and we shouldn't link it if we're not sure. Editors at pt-wiki are more lax about
WP:Verifiability than here, and we shouldn't just assume what editors there are doing is sourced well enough for here.
Mathglot (
talk) 04:03, 10 February 2024 (UTC) updated by
Mathglot (
talk)
04:16, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
i was just now wondering if that was basically a state of emergency. I agree that the way it is presented is confusing. Also, is this what Lula used to regain control?
Elinruby (
talk)
04:12, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
ok that is the intervenor I quoted about Anderson Torres? I'll see if I can't improve that while I am in there. I have a discussion point for the group but it may take me a little while to formulate it.
Elinruby (
talk)
11:24, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Remember that the
Brazil Political, Legal, and Governmental Glossary is available, and may help with translations into English for certain terms. We should be very wary of machine translation, and I've already corrected one of them in the
WP:LEADSENTENCE of the article, which defined the plot as happening among "articulations" of people in government (should've been, a "network" of people). If there are terms you need that ought to be in the glossary and are not, please list them below, along with the context (surrounding sentence, and link). Thanks,
Mathglot (
talk)
04:15, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
They had a lot of trouble naming it. I think it got move protected for a while. The thing is that the Supreme Court and the presidential palace were also attacked, but as I told them at the time-- there was a whole influx of Portuguese speaking IPs -- nobody is going to be able recognize, remember or spell "Tres Poderes" and even I had to look it up just now
Elinruby (
talk)
07:57, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Background and impact
Since this is developing now, it's obviously too soon to have an "Impact" section, but it's not too soon to place this in context of the events which have been roiling Brazil since Bolsonaro first came to power (and possibly before). We should start a "Background" section (or, "Introduction", or whatever) and provide context for the events being reported in this article.
Mathglot (
talk)
07:03, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Torimem: just making sure I understand what happened on the
Anderson Torres page: "Brasilia Federal District" is wrong because it isn't a municipal position? Just making sure I understand, because I think I did that here too, not expecting Americans to know that Brazil has one. And thanks, this is exactly the sort of thing I asked you to help us with. The US has a federal district also but its mayor is not in the federal cabinet.
Elinruby (
talk)
08:50, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
hinreply
To put it simple, at federal level you have the president and his cabinet (which consists of "ministers"). The same structure in mirrored at state level, where we have the governors and their "secretaries". The Federal District differs from the states in that it legally has both
state and
municipal characteristics. In summary, it's the Federal District that has secretaries, not Brasília, both must not be conflated.
Torimem (
talk)
09:01, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
I found where I did that on this page, fixing it. Thanks again. I appreciate it when people let me know I am doing stuff wrong, because then I can stop doing it.
Elinruby (
talk)
11:17, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Structure discussion
It looks like the Tres Poderes and Capitol attack articles cover the same events and should be merged (?)
The thing that makes this article different is that there have been official findings of involvement by Bolsonaro and others
Possibly all three articles should be merged (?) - Scratch this, Tres Poderes article is about the plaza not the attack, and the Capital attack article contains enormous detail about Jan 8 only, so nothing needs to be merged, phew, although both of these need trans-title parameters and English-language references.
I think at this point we can safely say coup (that was a question at one point)
Some people's involvement was an incidental finding of the unrelated vaccine investigation (?) Were they trying to substantiate the claimed link that covid vaccines cause AIDS?nope it was this==> Or was this about fake vaccination records?
We should probably keep the who's who section close to list format (?) Ditto the timeline (?)
How about
the plot
army won't play (?)
Jan 8
intervenor, Torres booted then arrested
Bolsonaro returns, is questioned
.... (Some stuff about plea bargain testimony where I don't have the full sequence of events)
Congressional inquiry
Investigation of remarks to ambassadors
i am probably missing some investigations
judge's report
most recent arrests.
I realize that there is probably too much here for any one person to explain in one sitting but if we get the chronology straight in the timeline (start by Googling dates), then sum the evidence (RFI calls it damning) in the evidence section, are we headed in the right direction?
Elinruby (
talk)
11:55, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Elinruby On the coup, sources like the
CNN describes the "Tempus Veritatis" operation as "...to investigate the criminal organization that acted in the attempted coup d'état and the abolition of the Democratic Rule of Law, in order to obtain a political advantage by keeping the then president of the Republic in power. ", which makes the "coup d'état" description a legal and official term. As I remember, it all started due Bolsonaro's fake COVID-19 vaccination records, which he then used to enter the US in late December 2022.
Erick Soares3 (
talk)
12:41, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Right, I was just coming in to say that reference #3 (O Tempo) seems to indicate it was about his personal vaccination records. What a stupid reason for a plot to fail, lol. thanks for confirming
Elinruby (
talk)
13:12, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
You know, I think that we may have just barely touched on that when we did
List of scandals in Brazil. I never saw this article though, or I would have at least done a copy-edit. If you are feeling helpful at some point, let us know if we missed anything on that list. I just saw a link to Michelle Bolsonaro's jewelry in one of the sources to this article, and felt proud ;) I wish I had expanded the one about the Yanamato though. And
Tres FronterasElinruby (
talk)
14:57, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Plausible if it was a PDF if I am understanding this. We should try to update this point, which should be better explained if pertinent or deleted if it turns out to not apply.
Elinruby (
talk)
21:00, 15 February 2024 (UTC)reply