This article is written in
Indian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, analysed, defence) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other
varieties of English. According to the
relevant style guide, this should not be changed without
broad consensus.
This article was nominated for
deletion on 1 December 2019. The result of
the discussion was keep.
A news item involving 2019 Hyderabad gang rape and murder was featured on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the In the news section on 6 December 2019.
Wikipedia
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or
poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see
this noticeboard.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Feminism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Feminism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FeminismWikipedia:WikiProject FeminismTemplate:WikiProject FeminismFeminism articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Human rights on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of
India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia articles
This article is within the
scope of the WikiProject Law Enforcement. Please
Join,
Create, and
Assess.Law EnforcementWikipedia:WikiProject Law EnforcementTemplate:WikiProject Law EnforcementLaw enforcement articles
This article has not yet received a rating on the
importance scale.
Title of the article
Note I went ahead and renamed the article and the AfD to 2019 Hyderabad gang rape, (along the lines of
2012 Delhi gang rape) mainly due to the
WP:BLP concerns on the privacy of the victim and her family, also it is against the Indian laws to name a rape victim. Moreover in my opinion the case is notable not the subject. other options for the title are 2019 Shamsabad gang rape or 2019 Shamsabad murder case or 2019 Hyderabad veterinary murder case--DBigXrayᗙ14:23, 1 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Please
WP:INDENT your talk page comments. The subject is not a notable individual and we should not take the name per
Wikipedia:BLPNAME. Rape cases are different and local laws prohibits media from disclosing the name of the individual. We on Wikipedia have to choose
WP:COMMONNAME from among the ones used by the media. I would not comment on
WP:OSE regards. --DBigXrayᗙ07:25, 2 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Ok. I understand the convention of naming the article title as the subject is about a non notable person. I regret for my mistakes.
Abishe (
talk)
08:31, 2 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Name of victim can be taken if they’re published in RS. See Kathua case or Nirbhaya case. All case have names of victim namely Asifa Bano and Jyoti Singh.
DBigXray, I agree with page move but not with removing name of victim. Hope it clarifies,—Harshil want to talk?15:55, 1 December 2019 (UTC)reply
User:Harshil169, No I am against using the name of the victim per the privacy reasons of
WP:BLP as it directly impacts the family. One IP updated the article that the local police are now using a fictional name Disha to refer to the victim. For now I see no problem is using "Victim" wherever needed. All resposible Media houses like
the Hindu are referring to the victim as Veterinary instead of taking her name. I dont see any good reason, nor have you named any, to start adding the real name of the victim. If you want to convince me to allow the real name, you will need to give me a good reason to do so and a policy that allows it. Please note
WP:BLP policies are rather strictly applied so whenever there is a conflict among policies, BLPs are given prominence. --DBigXrayᗙ16:01, 1 December 2019 (UTC)reply
DBigXray, my argument is same that
WP:NOTCENSORED and there’s no particular policy which objects the use of name. Other pages also use it because RS used it. My argument is this and if you don’t want to take then it’s okay but name is already known. Let’s wait to gain consensus or ask people what they think. Harshil want to talk?16:51, 1 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Unknown3599, Adding that "fictional name" is unnecessary in the lead. Although using the fictional name is allowed, and I am not against using it but I dont see any extra purpose being served here. I feel
User:NonsensicalSystem was right in reverting your change. As far as mention of the fictional name is concerned, I had already mentioned it in the section on
2019_Hyderabad_gang_rape#Aftermath, and that is all that is needed. I suggest we all should focus on improving the article and the discussion on the AfD than getting fixated on the real name or the fictional name. --DBigXrayᗙ12:16, 2 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Hey guys. I'm not a registered editor, just a user passing through. My perspective is that Wikipedia looses its core appeal when a quick google search can turn up more in-depth/accurate info on a story than the Wikipedia article can. I think of Wikipedia as the place I come to learn more about a story that I've merely gotten a surface level understanding of from news websites, but intentionally obscuring information, as you're doing here, creates the opposite dynamic. Finally, I feel like the policy you're citing for this is being misapplied here. Look at any other Wikipedia article about high-profile crime cases for a sharp contrast on depth-of-information concerning the victims. For example, Wikipedia's article about
Russell Williams (criminal) lists the full names of both of his rape/murder victims.
2601:18A:8300:1920:7C37:5576:622F:7518 (
talk)
04:25, 9 December 2019 (UTC)reply
there is no such convention, please link me to such a policy that you are talking about because I haven't yet heard of it.
Here is the article from CNN today, notice that even CNN does not name the victim and clearly states "The victim has not been publicly identified due to India's laws against naming sexual assault victims." On the contrary, to what you claim, there is
WP:BLPCRIME. Read the threads above instead of wasting everyone's time--DBigXrayᗙ05:28, 6 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Victim's name
Is there some reason why the victim's name is not mentioned in the article? I assume that there is. At the same time, however, I found her name mentioned seven times in the "references" section.
Joseph A. Spadaro (
talk)
06:47, 9 December 2019 (UTC)reply
What's the point of not naming it (the name) in the article ... and then explicitly mentioning it (the name) seven times in the references? If you (Wikipedia) are trying to keep the name hidden, mentioning it seven times will not achieve that goal.
Joseph A. Spadaro (
talk)
07:05, 9 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Those refs are from the time, when the article still had the name. Please understand that
WP:WIP. No one is opposing your replacement of those refs with the ones that dont mention the name. Now, instead of arguing over this be
WP:BOLD and replace the refs. --DBigXrayᗙ07:16, 9 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Thanks. I am not arguing about anything. I was simply pointing out an oddity that I noticed. I don't work on this article. And I have little interest in it. I just happened to stumble across the article, and I noticed the name "discrepancy" (that I mentioned above). So, I wanted to mention this to the editors who regularly edit this page. Thanks.
Joseph A. Spadaro (
talk)
15:45, 9 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Thanks a lot
User:Edward Zigma for immediately starting the talk page discussion. I think the content you added was deserved but it was badly written. Even I would have reverted your content addition. Can you please add all the sources that you have and then write the paragraph here on the talk page to discuss ? Once we review it and make necessary changes to polish it, I believe it can be added back into the article. regards. --DBigXrayᗙ17:58, 2 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Edit - Some BJP MLAs inclding MLA Raja Singh and party supporters tried to give this incident a false communal spin and trivialise the issue by blaming it on the muslim community, for which DCP Prakash Reddy had to release a statement saying,“It is absolutely not communal in nature as the accused are of all communities so it is incorrect to say it is anything related to religion."[1]
And user
Harshil169 (
talk·contribs) next time instead of again reverting my edits and falling into the disputes for which we both are known about, try to have a discussion in the talk section. I add things with minute care and precautions and again falling into the disruptive behaviour which you have reverted once again, try to have a cool n calm composition. I have added the link with explicitly naming BJP MLAs.
Edward Zigma (
talk)
19:09, 2 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Version2 Out of the four accused, there were three Hindus and one Muslim. BJP MLA Raja Singh, BJP’s IT Cell chief Amit Malviya and some party supporters tried to give the incident a false communal spin by selectively focussing on the Muslim accused. Hyderabad Police stated that it will take action against such people and the DCP stated "It is absolutely not communal in nature as the accused are of all communities so it is incorrect to say it is anything related to religion."
I feel like saying something like "efforts were made to single out one Muslim out of four perpetrators of the crime and paint it as Muslim violence". I would also cite our
favourite reliable source for it. No such wishy washy language like "communal colour", whatever that means. --
Kautilya3 (
talk)
20:41, 2 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Good point, I would make a slight tweak, "efforts were made to single out one Muslim out of four perpetrators of the crime and paint it as violence by Muslim against a Hindu girl" I dont see any point in adding the swarajyamag link. is there any ? here is the version below. I added the line so that it explains what communal spin means. I feel it is self descriptive. comments/tweaks welcome. --DBigXrayᗙ22:46, 2 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Version3 Out of the four accused, there were three Hindus and one was Muslim. BJP MLA Raja Singh, BJP’s IT Cell chief Amit Malviya and some party supporters tried to give the incident a false communal spin by selectively focussing on the Muslim accused. Efforts were made to single out one Muslim out of four perpetrators of the crime and paint it as violence by Muslim against a Hindu girl. Hyderabad Police stated that it will take action against such people and the DCP stated "It is absolutely not communal in nature as the accused are of all communities so it is incorrect to say it is anything related to religion."
I stand by my phrase "Muslim violence" (generalised). That is how they are painting it. For example:
Madhu Kishwar who frequently shares fake news and communal and sensitive content tweeted the above Swarajya story claiming, "And they tell us we shouldn't be #Islamophobic If this is what they do when they are a so called minority, imagine our fate when they morph into a majority."[1]
Next time instead of again involving in disruptive reverting edits, care to involve in discussion with me.You did the same thing this time.I have provided the sufficient sources, so instead of again blatantly reverting my edits, try to have a converdation and discuss it.
Edward Zigma (
talk)
02:43, 3 December 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Kautilya3: instead of "Painting as a muslim violence" we should use "Painting as a Hindu-muslim communal issue" would be better. First one seems more biased. Otherwise itd perfect
Edward Zigma (
talk)
06:08, 3 December 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Kautilya3: I agree that it is not a sympathy for the girl. between the Muslim violence vs Hindu-muslim, I think the one closer to what the sources are saying is "Hindu-muslim" so I am preferring the latter. I will now move version 3 to the article. Any further cosmetic changes or improvements can be discussed here on this thread. regards. --DBigXrayᗙ07:41, 3 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Thanks
Kautilya3, your comments and additions were very useful. But all these work will amount to nothing if the article gets deleted. Please do share your opinion on the AfD page since you seem to be familiar with the case now. --DBigXrayᗙ11:37, 3 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Words by Venkaih Naidu
@
DBigXray: Vice-President of India Venkiah Naidu said, "What is required is not a new bill. What is required is political will, administrative skill, change of mindset and then go for kill of the social evil." Can we add this statement directly to Discussion in Parliament section or should I change it into passive voice?--
Unknown3599 (
talk)
18:36, 2 December 2019 (UTC)reply
DBigXray I've seen those words in
this article of India Today and also in RajyaSabhaTV. Since youtube isn’t a reliable source and we got a direct quote of a Vice-President from a reliable source, can it strengthen the article?--
Unknown3599 (
talk)
18:59, 2 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Unknown3599, Thanks for the link. Naidu's comment is lacking any substance. GK Reddy talks about doing something concrete, we should better add that in the Para on Lok Sabha. If after adding all the major points if there is space then we can possibly add Naidu's line, but for now lets avoid it. DBigXrayᗙ19:05, 2 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Why do people want to delete this?
Why do people want to delete the article? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
C1MM (
talk •
contribs)
The article has been nominated for Afd since 1 December 2019 and I think possibly it will be closed on 7 December 2019. But the issue is why can't we have
WP:Non-admin closure for controversial topics. Here most most of them have voted to keep the article. But my issue is I would like to take this article to ITN news section as the accused people have been shot dead. So if we delay further we might not able to nominate the article to the main page. I think the article deserved to be nominated as it is well sourced with abundant information. I don't see copyediting issues here.
Abishe (
talk)
11:18, 6 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Abishe, This is not a
WP:SNOW keep case. Such AfDs cannot be closed by non admins. and AfD are kept open for 7 days. see
HELP:AFD. I wanted to nominate this on ITNC myself, but then I stopped since it has the AfD template which will be removed in 2 days, but it will gather oppose votes on ITNC nom. ping
User:Spencer and
User:MSGJ for advice on how to proceed for ITN. --DBigXrayᗙ12:04, 6 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Thanks for nominating
DBigXray, I also had similar type of blurb in my mind and that is possibly the only blurb to quote there. I don't know whether fellow Wikipedians would agree with the blurb. Let's see how it goes. Thanks for your work in updating this article.
Abishe (
talk)
13:33, 6 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Tweet in this format...suitable?
Is a tweet in this format suitable for the article? I have taken reference to the first line from the section
Attempt to communalise:
Cyberabad Police
@cyberabadpolice
...All the accused not belongs to one religion. One is Muslim and remaining 3 are Hindus....
DTM There are two questions here. 1. Is a quote box merited here. 2. Is a Tweetbox instead of a quotebox more useful. I have made a few changes. I think you can add it. If someone removes it then we can discuss the same. I dont see any harm in adding this. --DBigXrayᗙ11:58, 6 December 2019 (UTC)reply
I myself am reconsidering the use of a tweetbox. It doesn't look so good on mobile devices (my andriod at least). It would be better as a quotebox or as some other format which highlights the text.
DTM (
talk)
09:29, 7 December 2019 (UTC)reply
I changed it in both places while we discuss, but the change in the lead is maybe injecting confusion as there's no explanation there, just the wikilink
--valereee (
talk)
18:02, 6 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Bagumba,
--valereee, I am a speaker of
Indian English. FYI, any killings done by the police, whether in self defence or extrajudicial is considered encounter. Police are not allowed to kill, that's court's job, so if they kill someone, it is encounter killing. If it is a staged killing, it is further classified as Fake encounter or staged encounter. If there is a gunfight between the police and criminals, then that will also be called an encounter between the police and the criminals. I think this is the reason, why all the indian newspapers are using "encounter" without alleged, while the foreign ones like Reuters are using "alleged". I think using alleged is ok, it keeps things on the safer side.--DBigXrayᗙ18:42, 6 December 2019 (UTC)reply
yes. I think you can use that ref to state that. In the above video at 1:18 you can see the reporter directly calling it "Police encounter" and not alleged encounter. Which agrees with whatever I said above.--DBigXrayᗙ19:11, 6 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Yes, Since there is no question that this was an encounter, you should remove alleged. If there was a claim that it is a fake encounter, then writing "alleged fake encounter" will make sense. --DBigXrayᗙ19:25, 6 December 2019 (UTC)reply
@
DBigXray: Can there be a police encounter without a killing? In the lead source at
Encounter killings by police, it says Malir saw 195 police encounters from January to October 2012, in which 18 people were killed and 276 arrested[2], i.e. fewer killings than encounters. In that usage, it seems like standard English usage of encounter.—
Bagumba (
talk)
02:05, 7 December 2019 (UTC)reply
@
DBigXray: Thanks. Perhaps
Encounter killings by police needs rewording from Encounter killing ... is a term used in South Asia ... to describe extrajudicial killings by the police if they are not all necessarily extrajudicial. I imagine quite a few non-Indian English speakers would not know. (Even better if reliable sources that explain this can be cited)—
Bagumba (
talk)
06:09, 7 December 2019 (UTC)reply
Bagumba I am not an expert in law, but my understanding of extrajudicial means outside the ambit of the judicial system (i.e. something not already approved by Judicial system.) These encounters are clearly not approved by any court, and frowned upon by the court, so I think it is acceptable to call all of them extra judicial. Teh article currently states "All four accused were killed in an
"encounter", a term used in India for extrajudicial killings by police," I think this is just fine. Here are some sources that can be added. [1][2] --DBigXrayᗙ09:03, 7 December 2019 (UTC)reply
User:Kautilya3 based on the discussion with you at GCG's talk page, I felt a background section is merited here. I think it is a common thought that comes to the mind, what is happening in India. so I felt this section was needed. Feel free to expand it with relevant content that suits the background. Several news articles on Hyd rape also had background section. --DBigXrayᗙ12:27, 8 December 2019 (UTC)reply
I agree, the background section is a good addition. This rape did not occur in a vacuum, the response was so wide because of other events.
Hippeus (
talk)
10:49, 1 January 2020 (UTC)reply