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I'm an Australian, so what on earth was Bush going on about in the third debate with his multiple references to armies of compassion? I just read the transcript, it seems like it's code for something I'm missing, and it sounds "faith based". Psychobabble
Is it too early to note that Kerry won? :) Just kidding, of course the article can't really say that, though The Daily Show basically said the same thing -- Jon Stewart seemed amazed that Rudy Giuliani thought Bush won, and Wesley Clark claimed Kerry won (both were guests). Some googling doesn't reveal any other suitably prominent people claiming one way or another (some blogs, but I don't know enough to know which are prominent enough for Wikipedia). Stewart could be noted, but I guess it's too early. In the morning, there will be dozens of opinions available. I'm probably just antsy because I quit smoking today and this whole nicotine patch thing is clearly a bunch of bullshit, so I'm trying to keep my mind on anything but cigarettes. Grr... Don't cross me tonight, Wikipedians, or I will have you all killed... Tuf-Kat 05:34, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
I think we should hold off for a while on assessing the first night... but until then, drink up if you're a kerry fan.
CNN / GALLUP POLL ON WHO WON DEBATE
Kerry: 53 Bush: 37
CBS POLL ON WHO WON DEBATE:
Kerry: 44 Bush: 26 Tie: 30
ABC POLL ON WHO WON DEBATE:
Kerry: 45 Bush 36: Tie: 17
Mort Kondracke: “This is the President's turf, this is the place that the President is supposed to dominate, terror and the war in Iraq. I don't think he really dominated tonight. I think Kerry looked like a commander-in-chief.”
Kate O'Beirne, National Review Online’s the Corner: "I thought the President was repetitive and reactive."
Jonah Goldberg, National Review Online's the Corner: "The Bush campaign miscalculated on having the first night be foreign policy night."
Bob Schieffer: “The President was somewhat defensive in the beginning”
Mark Shields: "The President showed a few times obvious anger"
Bill Kristol, Weekly Standard: “I think Kerry did pretty well tonight, he was forceful and articulate.”
Bob Schieffer: “Kerry got off to a very good start.”
Joe Scarborough: “It was John Kerry’s best performance ever…As far as the debate goes, I don’t see how anybody could look at this debate and not score this a very clear win on points for John Kerry.” (MSNBC)
Andrea Mitchell: “This is the toughest we’ve ever seen John Kerry. He attacked the very core of the President’s popularity. He’s basically saying, who do you believe?” (MSNBC)
Tim Russert: “Tonight he seemed to find his voice for the Democratic view of the world.”
Fred Barnes on FNC: "Kerry did very well and we will have a Presidential race from here on out."
- JohnKerry.com -- kizzle 06:43, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
The debate tonight (9/30/04) keeps being referred to as the "first" Presidential debate of 2004. There was a Presidential debate prior to this though (9/06/04). However, both President Bush and Senator Kerry declined the invitation. Mr. Badnarik running under the Libertarian Party ticket and Mr. Cobb running under the Green Party ticket both attended. A direct link to a Real Player verion of the C-SPAN event can be found here: rtsp://video.c-span.org/project/c04/c04090604_third.rm.
Putting the facts aside for a minute I'm going to go into non-NPOV mode and say that the September 6th Presidential debate was much more informative than the one on Sept. 30th. The latter seemed more like an infomercial. Dustin Asby 09:06, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Would it be possible to include a transcript of the debate(s when more have been done) or at least a link to a website with one? Chewyman 22:45, 1 Oct 2004
I don't support either candidate although between the two I prefer Bush. Kerry definitely won, because Bush failed to challenge any of Kerry's "points", and kept repeating his flip-flop mantra but not in those words. Bush seemed non-plussed by Kerry's hubris and did not know how to respond. Kerry contended he would have gotten everything right, from forming a better coalition, planning better for the occupation of Iraq, to using America's best forces instead of Afghani's to capture Bin Laden in Tora Bora. What is the proper debate response to someone who confidently states the hypothetical without any evidentiary basis that he would have done better?
Bush could have stated that Kerry was wrong about what he would have done, that Kerry would still be negotiating with the Taliban to try to get them to turn over Bin Laden, that if Kerry had attacked Afghanistan using American forces instead of special ops with the Northern Alliance that casualties would have been much higher. In answer to Kerry's insistance that Bin Laden was the real enemy, Bush could have countered that even though Bin Laden was not captured or killed, that he is effectively neutralized, like all Al Quada, except those in Iraq, he is having to keep his head down. In Iraq, al Quada is going against hardened military targets instead of innocent US civilians, etc.
When Kerry mentioned the CIA's negative estimate of the situation, Bush could have pointed out that pre-war intelligence also mentioned civil war as a potentential result of the invasion, just as the most recent estimate has, and yet despite this his policies have successfully avoided it to this point and despite the terrorist attacks most Iraqis are already living a better life and far fewer are dying than under the sanctions and Saddam.
Kerry also promised he would do much better than Bush in the future. An easy thing to contend and difficult to contest. Perhaps Bush should have used sarcasm, suggesting the Kerry with his international diplomatic skills should not even bother getting Germany and France in the coalition, when obviously he could get al Quaeda themselves to join the coalition. -- Silverback 17:07, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Iraq has Al Qaeda *now* because *we* invaded Iraq. We did not invade Iraq to fight Al Qaeda, rather Al Qaeda came to Iraq to fight us. It is not so far-off to say Kerry claimed he MIGHT have been able to stop Al Qaeda ... Aug 6 PDB "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US" ... I don't see your point about falibility and humility, why would a candidate field their humility rather than strength? I like your idea of reasoned arguments, but I would want them written by the presidents themselves rather than a speechwriter. The debate is the only chance you get to see the candidates themselves without any filter from their handlers. And Bin Laden may or may not be contained, the point is that by invading Iraq, we obviously have not learned our lesson against guerilla warfare with a foreign country. Look at Vietnam for us. Look at Afghanistan (1980's) with the Soviets against the mujahideen and Bin Laden. I don't see how anyone could possibly justify the war in Iraq as a response to either terror in general or 9/11. If it was terror, why did we pull troops off Afghanistan? Why did we invade Iraq when North Korea and at least a dozen countries were far more prime targets if the criteria was "dictator with weapons of mass destruction"? We were led into Iraq because "the enemy attacked us"? Iraq did not attack us. Al Qaeda attacked us. I think that was Kerry's best point, and it's hard for Bush to come up with a retort besides holding the red flag that says "FLIP-FLOP FLIP-FLOP!" -- kizzle 20:46, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
Strength without evidence and credibility is just bluster. Kerry claims he would not have made any mistakes, when before 9/11 he had consistently voted against intelligence and military strength. He claims he would have been strong and resolute, when he has a history of wanting to defer to foreign and international authority such as the International Court and the UN. He expects us to believe he would have persuaded the UN to support us in Iraq when Bush couldn't? What is he relying upon, the objectivity of the UN? If the UN had been objective they would not have let their emotions against Bush get in the way. Is he relying upon the UN's corruption? What is he going to do, bribe them like Saddam did in the Oil for Food program? Iraq was the best choice, because it was the most credible threat. Saddam was a character we could not trust, a loose canon with oil wealth who was already tying down part of our air force that we would need against a stronger oponent such as Iran or Korea, who was financing terrorism against Israel, who had tried to assassinate a former president and who we had no reason to believe he wouldn't help al Qaeda attack the US, if he could do so without consequences to himself. France and Germany could have kept the inspections and sanctions going if they had wanted to, all they would have had to do was start bearing a significant amount of the costs of bringing Saddam to the table. It was the US having to bear the costs of the troop build up, and France and Germany were not helping at all, there is no reason to believe they would ever help. Korea was isolatable and had incredible conventional forces holding Seoul, Korea hostage, the civilian casualties there would have been tremendous. We are in a better position against Iran now because we have a base in Iraq right in the center of the seething cauldron of Islamic fundamentalism, and we have reestablished some of the credibility of the UN sanctions. Iraq is arguably the most just war the US has EVER fought. We didn't purposely target civilain infrastructure, like we did in Serbia, the first gulf war and WWII. We did not target just innocent Iraqi conscripts but went after the responsible "authorities", the Saddam regime. Remember the slaughter in the bunkers of Kuwait in the first gulf war, remember how careful to avoid damage to civilain infrastructure we were in this war. Although our motives were as pure in the Vietnam, in this war we were using a volunteer professional force instead of innocent conscript civilians. We also used immoral conscription methods in the Korean conflict, WWII, WWI, the civil war and the revolutionary wars. Our allies in this war are better, mostly volunteer professional armies. We fought on Stalin's side in WWII. One really can't credibly oppose this war unless one is a pacifist. If you are not a pacifist then what war that was fought by moral means do you think was justified? They hypocrisy of having conscripts fight for "freedom" is palpable.-- Silverback 01:32, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
A war, while rarely justified in my opinion, is justifiable when there is a clear danger to the US, or more realistically in foreign conflicts that could tide later on. Look at Afghanistan in the 80's, which was a key component in bringing down the Soviet Union because it simply overspent in trying to expand its communist influence. We only spent 3 billion dollars, trained mujahideen, and as a result struck a devastating blow against a superpower who we were fighting with for over 40 years. The first Iraq War, while questionable in our true motives and Saudi Arabia, was to prevent Saddam from controlling an extreme share of the world's oil supply (although I think it had more to do with our ties to Saudis). However, this war was justified to us because:
The only problem is that 1 is not true by any stretch. They had no working relationship, Cheney on the debate corrected himself (even though he had said the opposite on tape before) and said there was no relationship. The 9/11 commission concluded that there was "no working relationship". And like I said before, Al Qaeda came to Iraq to fight us, they weren't there before we stated our intent to preemptively invade Iraq. We all know 2 is incorrect if you read the Kay report. And what proof can you provide that we were ever in imminent danger from Iraq?
My primary problem is that we were going to Iraq before 9/11 ever happened. I personally know my best friend's dad who is high up in the army who was told at the beginning of the Administration, that "In 2 years, get ready for Iraq, we're going in"... when he told me that I said that's BS, but when Richard Clarke's and Paul O'Neill's book I started to believe it. In addition, you have a cabinet consisting of most members of Project for a New American Century which advocates invading Iraq since 1998. Thus, we were going in before terrorism ever was a problem.
Finally, the justification you provide for invading Iraq applies to so many countries, what are we going to do, invade them all? Do you *seriously* think that by invading a string of muslim countries we are not going to set off some serious chains of consequences? We can't fight everyone before the muslim world unites against us. And one more thing, we pulled off troops from Aghanistan early in order to invade Iraq. That is wrong no matter how you spin it. Who do you think is a more important target, Osama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein? One is a leader of a country with no weapons of mass destruction, one is a leader of a worldwide movement devoted towards killing America and has already killed 3000 *Americans*. I'll report, you decide. -- kizzle 18:08, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
Iraq had to be dealt with, that is something which we all can agree. But the new CIA WMD report confirms that sanctions were effective, in that his nuclear ability was deteriorating, he had *no* WMDs, and that he had no capability at the time to produce them. And so far there is nothing shown that the 3 justifications to go to war given above, none of them turned out to be true. Realistically, I think Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld wanted a US controlled state in the Middle East, not just a sympathetic ally in Israel. It makes sense... after the Cold War, Islamic Fundamentalism is the greatest threat to American safety, and the biggest fear that our administration has is the warring factions in various middle eastern states allying together to form an alliance which aligns against us through islamic fundamentalism and our not-so-good record with muslim countries. Why do you think we've supported the House of Saud all this time? Because if they fall, a new movement will take over which will be far less sympathetic to American values. But this does not mean you get to lie to the American people just to accomplish your political aims in foreign interests. The fact that he was a brutal dictator was NOT the reason we went to war. And if I'm not mistaken Colon Powell has since apologized for misleading the public with the clean (no quotations) mobile biological labs. -- kizzle 23:08, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction. Saddam had no working relationship with Al Qaeda. These were the reasons given to us to go to war and they all were false. Not just false now, but shaky from the very beginning. This isn't monday-morning quarterbacking, this is holding our administration responsible for their actions. -- kizzle 21:33, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
This isn't really about the article, so please take it to private e-mail if you want to continue. This isn't the purpose of talk pages.
Tuf-Kat 05:03, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
Is there a more objective and less controversial source for polling results to use in the main article? Gallup has been discredited as biased at worst, and controversial at best. Stbalbach 22:46, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Shouldn't the year be at the end of the title, not at the beginning? See U.S. presidential election, 2004 and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (years in titles) - GuloGuloGulo 18:51, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)
Kizzle writes in his edit summary that the information about Bush's kidding around, during the second debate, about his demeanor in the first debate might not belong here at all*. Excuse me? If anything, this page is desperately in need of factual information about the content of each debate, instead of this cable-news-driven obsession with poll results. It is symptomatic that we have questions from the moderators, but none of the responses. The page goes from questions asked to poll results, without any attention to the substance of the debate. I know there are links to transcripts, but then why include the questions (which are also in the transcripts), or for that matter why include the poll results (which are available from linked articles)? This article should be at least as concerned with the substance of the debates as it is with the viewers' reactions and the pre-selected questions; as it reads, it is superficial and cable-news-ish. Bds yahoo 20:51, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I noticed the second listed third-party debate said the Libertarian, Green, and Constitution Parties were present. I have the c-span video and I don't see Peroutka, so I removed that party from the list. I also added information about the October 6th debate. Is the first listed debate appropriate for the page? Candidates hadn't been nominated at that point. -- Thorne 03:36, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Can whoever started the analysis section please flesh out more than simply Bush's view on Supreme Court. An analysis section should cover key highlights of both people's sides and choice quotes, if you insist on having an analysis section please fill it out with much more than you have and in a balanced manner to both candidates. -- kizzle 06:48, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
Can somebody (perhaps Glenn Willen, since he made the edit) explain how bringing a pen was a violation of the rules? Both sides were seen writing down notes, so I don't get this. Unless there was some rule that candidates could not use their own pens, only those provided, in which case that should be stated in the article, for clarity. Bds yahoo 19:58, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I was thinking of adding this image of President Bush and Senator Kerry debating to the main page: [1] What do you think? Should I upload it? -- Blue387 21:05, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
This section seems to be a bit extraneous to the subject. We need an entire sub-article for one line from his speech? And no, this isn't the same prominance as the infamous 16 words on yellowcake from Africa. -- kizzle 21:30, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
wasn't there a controversey over kerry's statements about mary cheney? all the republicans were going crazy about kerry "outing" her, then the democrats were going on about how the republicans were "ashamed" of her, if i remember rite. Xunflash 16:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the pointless reference to the Democratic Underground poster from the controversy section. It seems very unlikely to me that most people would consider that random forum posts from indeterminate users constitute encyclopedic material. -- 208.41.98.142 18:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2004/10/29/bulge/index.html Nelson is neither conspiracy theorist nor midnight blogger. He's a senior research scientist for NASA and for Caltech's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, and an international authority on image analysis. A professional physicist and photo analyst for more than 30 years, he speaks earnestly and thoughtfully about his subject. "I am willing to stake my scientific reputation to the statement that Bush was wearing something under his jacket during the debate,"
There were parts of this article that have questions numbered incorrectly. I'm pretty sure this is related to the pictures, but I can't figure out what causing it.
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The statement "Cheney was viewed as the winner due to his forceful command on the language." is not supported by any footnotes or data. I found this information that contradicts that statement. Clearly there was no agreed upon "winner" by a majority of the polling sample.
RACE FOR THE WHITE HOUSE: CAMPAIGN 2000; Polls show no clear winner of VP debate; The Boston Herald October 7, 2004 Thursday
The ABC poll of registered voters found Cheney beat Edwards 43 percent to 35 percent, with 19 percent calling it a tie.
But one skewing factor to the ABC poll appeared to be its sample. -The network found viewership was made up of 38 percent Republicans and 31 percent Democrats, with the rest independents.
The ABC poll showed, though, that no votes changed after the debate - with Bush/Cheney beating Kerry/Edwards 51 percent to 48 percent before the debate and 50 percent to 49 percent afterward.
The CBS poll gave the nod to Edwards, 48 percent to 28 percent, with a much larger group, 31 percent, calling it a tie.
The network also found a greater number of voters said their opinions changed for the better for Edwards than Cheney - 49 percent said they like Edwards more now and 32 percent like Cheney more.
Nightkey ( talk) 04:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 03:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
There were four countries that participated in the invasion. The United States, United Kingdom, Australia and Poland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ofhistoricalnote ( talk • contribs) 10:12, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
United States presidential debates MOU, 2004 was merged into here, per an earlier request, there being seemingly no reason against. Wasted Time R ( talk) 17:24, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
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