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You may want to point out that there is considerable disagreement as to whether Imhar was the second son of Cathal. That assertion is the work of John Collins, which is not consistent with primary genaology writers, and whom is repeatedly denigrated by John O'Donovan as being without support.
Generally speaking, there were four authors credited with provising genealogies on the O'Donovans in the 1200-1400 time period: Peregrine Clery, writing in 1632; Duald Mac Firbis, writing in 1650; Geofrey Keating, writing in the 1500's, and Eugene O'Keefe, writing in 1703. John O'Donovan added a considerable amount of information (much of which was his own speculation), and the work of John Collins, who had the "unpublished manuscript", is generally regarded as without any verifiable resources.
The genealogies of Crom/Cathal of the four writers above do not list an Imhar as being a second son of Cathal.
The Annals of Innisfallen note in 1283:
AI1283.6 The son of Gilla Riabach Ó Donnubáin was slain by Gilla Mo-Chudu, son of In Dubshúilech Ó Súilliubáin. AI1283.7 The son of Echthigern Ó Donnubáin was slain by Siucraid, son of Gilla [na] Flann Ó Súilliubáin.
All of the reference materials in the Appendix to the Annals of the Four Master for this individual, which is the apparent source of the writings for your article, trace back to John Collins, whose work nobody could see or verify.
I do agree that the age of Imhar in 1284 is within an acceptable range to make him a son of Cathal: Ancrom, slain in 1254. Chief. Cathal, his son, was of age in 1254, so assume he is at least 25. In that case, Imhar, his son, could have been about 30 in 1283.
I for one, do not beleive the presentations of John O'Donovan, or John Collins, on the clan location or activties in 1283, for the following reasons (I just happened to be doing some additional reseach tonight when I saw your artcile, so please bear with me.)
John O'Donovan moved the entire O'Donovan clan, I believe, into Cork, by his justaposition of where Ancrom was killed. John O'Donovan notes that Ancrom was killed at " Inish an bheil, now Pheale, near Inishkeen, in County Cork". BY this entry alone, he supports the migration of the clan between 1169 and 1254 down into Cork.
The actual language from MAC CARTHAIGH'S BOOK, was Fínghin Reanna Róin son of Domhnall God Cairbreach [Mac Carthaigh] and the Uí Dhonnabháin killed Mac Craith son of Diarmaid son of Donnchadh na hImirce Timchill [Ó Mathghamhna] in retribution for the slaying of An Crom [Ó Donnabháin] at Inis Béil Átha Dos by the Uí Eachach, about a cowherds' brawl.
There are several points worth noting - Canon Mahoney, in his discourses on the Mahoney's could never figure out what the Mahoney's were doing in that area; he thought they were coming back from a jounrey to put them so far outside their territory as to be down into that area of Cork when a fight happens over a cowherd. The simple answer is, they weren't there.
If you look at a map for Broadford- Dromcollogher, you will see it is smack in the middle of the historical territories of the Ui Fidghente / Uí Chairpri. Broadford was formerly known as the parish of Killaliathan or Killagholehane. Broadford was originally called Béal an Átha which means "the ford mouth".
In 1254, Ancrom was still in his original territory, which bordered the Mahoney's and would certainly explain the conflict over a cowherd. (By misplacing this event, John O'Donovans moves the O'Donovan clan into Cork thrity years before they actually split and moved there)
In 1283, the O'Donovans split into distinct septs.
Domnall, son of Domnall Cairprech, and others of the Uí Chairpri made a treacherous plot against Domnall Mac Carthaig, king of Desmumu. The king obtained certain knowledge of it, and made a hosting which included the principal foreigners of Ireland, viz. Thomas de Clare, Maurice, son of Maurice, and Thomas, son of Maurice, John de Barry, the Roches, Condons, and many other foreigners, as well as the army of Desmumu itself. And the Clann Shelbaig abandoned(?) the stronghold of the Uí Chairpri and of the sons of Domnall Cairprech, and fled into In Fonn Iartharach and into Crecán Sifne and Béirre, and to every place they could throughout Desmumu, and the foreigners, moreover, obtained neither preys nor spoils. The king made a compact with all those great foreigners concerning the cattle of Uí Chairpri, and he obtained on his own lands their herds and steeds. And to many of those whom he plundered he gave, though he was not bound to, some of his cattle and livestock. And the same Domnall Óc, son of Domnall Cairprech, and all the people of the Uí Chairpri accompanying him, departed(?). Immediately after that the king caused great migrations into the borders of Clann Shelbaig on every side, so that famine well nigh killed all the Uí Chairpri who accompanied Domnall Óc and his kinsmen, and their wives and underlings went to every place they could, to obtain food.
From this, it is clear the clan split - some went with Domnall Oc, (and ultimately, became the MacCarthy ruling septs of MacCarthy Reagh) and some did not. Those that did not, he gave some cows and livestock, and they stayed in the territories of what becase the lands of the Earls of Desmond and the Earls of Kildare. There are a number of O'Donovans that never left their Fidghente territories, which John O'Donovan took great pains to ignore. Clearly, if the victors were carving up the castles of the Chairpri with the foreigners, the O'Donovans had to be there in 1283, not down in Cork.
But, with the migration arising from the clan split, some O'Donovans went south, and the taking of new territories in the Skibereen and southwest area of Cork put them into conflicts with those holding those territories - the O'Sullivans. And hence, in 1283, after the clan split, you see the two citations for the conflicts with the O'Sullivans, and two O'Donovans were slain.
Whether those two were directly related to Cathal, is unknown. Collins is a weak reference, because he wrote without any citing any support or authority. A number of the families/researchers have tried to get their hands on his manuscript for more than a hundred years, to no avail. John Collins wrote for General Richard O'Donovan, who only wanted to hear some things, and not others. There is no doubt O'Collins embellished, and even John O'Donovan was frustrated. So, in the end, I would recommend two things:
Note that a writer (Collins) believed Imhar was a son of Cathal, but there is not additional evidence of that. And, two, where did you get the reference for his hobbies? Some of that was quite a surprise. Your articles tend to end up going into a billion other web crawlers that cite them as fact, so if there is something without fact, it won't be possible to eliminate it from the web libraries later on. We've been trying for a hundred and fifty years to fix O'Hart's writings, so I know something about undoing errenoeous information. Modonovan ( talk) 08:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
This issue we all run into is which documents can be relied upon, and to what extent. It is my understanding that Brian has the original John O'Donovan manuscripts, so he will always be a very good source of information. And, Ken Nicholls is the preeminent scholar on all these matters. For myself, I place very little reliance on CCC, as it was certainly an O'Brian propoganda piece written two hundred years after the fact.
As to Amlaíb Ua Donnubáin getting whacked in 1201, there was a bit of contraversy on the location of that event. O'Brian, O'Connor and MacCarthy came against him, and those forces were still to the north or adjacent to the Ui Cairbre historical territory in the north, before they moved south. I'll check all my files, but I remember a complaint (and it may have been in a Nicholls work) that John O'Donovan slightly mis-translated that passaage, and placed the event at Cenn Eich, rather than describing the opoosing forces as traveling there after the event. When you talk to the various families still in Ireland on this subject, some are quite adamant their family never moved south, and there is a considerable "debate" on some of these matters. Being in the US, it's sometimes hard to fathom the level of agitation on this subject that still exists in person in Ireland, but the agitation is considerable amoungest some of the family researchers (and that there are six families that claim the senior descent, but that is a whole 'nother fight which I will stay out of...)
I agree with you regarding the Waterford presence. Cearly, the Ui Imair were in Waterford, and the death of A Donovan in 996 there was cearly a son or newphew of the Limerick group. But, beyond that, I have not been able find a lineage in that area. Brian will continue to remain the best resource on that subject and area.
As to what happended to the Imair, from what I have gathered, is that after the Battle of Clontarf, they did not leave, but regrouped and migrated a bit south. The O'Donovans were still at Croom (Cromadh) in 1151 (M1151.18 A great predatory excursion was made by Ruaidhri, son of Toirdhealbhach Ua Conchobhair, into Thomond; and he carried away many cows, and burned Cromadh.) This was three years after beating on the Danes at nearby Rathmore (about three miles away from Croom) (In 1148 A.D., the King of Munster, Turlough O'Brien, defeated the Danes at the nearby fort of Rathmore.) So, at least at that point in time, and given the O'Donovans' extensive involvement and alliances with the Danes, we still see them together and both getting beat on in the Croom area around 1150 by the O'Brians. Whether the Danes were able to stay together in a recognizable clan form until 1284 is uncertain. We both recognize that the Cairbre/ O'Donovans carried Danish names for three hundred years after Donovan was slain in 977, and so the Ivar name by iteself does not convince me there was a separate sept; it could just have been he was a son of Gilla the Swarthy. It's not likely we will every know.
Also, I'm not sure where that other Collins manuscript is. One of my ancestors tried to get his hands on it circa 1910, and he had no luck even then, and he was pretty persistent in his efforts. If all the manuscripts in the Skibereen area ever see the light of day, maybe it will appear. Most of the Journal excerpts came from John O'Donovan's writing, and he would quote the manuscripts, so even referencing the Journal articles may not reveal what was contained in the manuscripts. However, it has been my experience that more and more materials continue to become available online, so maybe it will aappear.
I think there will still be considerable discussion on how much of, and when, the clan moved south, and whether it was 1169 or 1283. Some of the O'Donovans I spoke to are adamant their family moved in 1250 (not 1169, not 1283), and they have their family histories, etc. Based on my reading of the 1283 entry, I have an opinion, but others hold other opinions. From what I see, people argue their points to support their place in the "senior descent", and John O'Donovan certainly had an objective there. Your the beneficiary of his reasoning, recognizing of course that he changed his tune over the years from claiming he was the senior descendent under Donal I to the descendent of tenth (unnamed) son of Donal I. That is worthy of its own article, but only those interested in yapping at his work (i.e those six familes...) would care.
Thanks for your efforts. If you want access to my library, collected over 25 years, let me know. Some of the books (Letters of Florence McCarthy, Gleanings from History, Pacata Hiberna, etc are not online yet, and the Gleanings book would be of huge benefit if you are writing on your specific line.
```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Modonovan ( talk • contribs) 05:55, 3 December 2010 (UTC)