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Material from
Help:Table was split to
Help:Tables and locations on 9 December 2023 from
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provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists. Please leave this template in place to link the article histories and preserve this attribution.
There are still 15 expandable sections in the table of contents.
Note: Go
here for a tool to fully expand/collapse the table of contents.
It's one line on a help page. It makes it easier to use this help page and many article pages with many subsections. I use it all the time. You don't have to use it. But others may appreciate the help in using this help page. --
Timeshifter (
talk)
03:03, 13 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I realize it is one line on a help page, but while useful I simply don't see why it belongs on this page. It is not related to tables, and thus does not belong on this help page.To be clear, I use the tool. I agree it is useful. But I don't think it needs to have a link in the lead of a help page on tables.HouseBlastertalk03:21, 13 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Houseblaster. You said: "It is not related to tables." It is helping people use this help page on tables. And you use it. So let's help other people use this help page more efficiently and quickly. Are you going to make them click 15 expand buttons before they find the specific help they need? Versus clicking one "expand all" button, and quickly skimming the table of contents. --
Timeshifter (
talk)
04:25, 13 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Nobody has to click 15 expand buttons. Let's say I want to put a border on every cell. I am going to skim the table of contents, see "whole table operations", and click expand. Then I would see
Help:Table § Borders of every cell, and click on that. If everything else was expanded, it would needlessly clutter the interface. The
KISS principle applies.HouseBlastertalk16:46, 13 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Before I installed the tool, I often had to expand many TOC sections to find what I wanted on Help:Table and many other articles. The tool does not prevent you from opening sections individually. I also have some CSS installed to minimize the space between lines in the TOC. Both in Vector 2010 and Vector 2022. See vector.css and vector-2022.css links on my user page. --
Timeshifter (
talk)
17:14, 13 December 2023 (UTC)reply
You are assuming people know exactly what they are looking for, or that the info they are looking for fits into a particular heading. I remember when I looked in many sections to find what I was looking for. And I sometimes needed info from multiple sections. And someone new to tables may just want to browse around all the headings before jumping in. I often do that on article pages with many nested sections. --
Timeshifter (
talk)
00:58, 24 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes. See my previous comments. Which HouseBlaster and Jroberson108 do not acknowledge as being true for me, or others. Thus removing a useful tool for some table editors. We are talking one sentence. Many people on the Village Pump and on Phabricator disagreed with the decision not to have an expand/collapse all toggle. So I know for a fact that many people want it. So let them have the choice, versus forcing your way on them. --
Timeshifter (
talk)
02:15, 25 December 2023 (UTC)reply
No. This is unrelated to the topic of the help page. Every internal WP tool ever developed by anyone is probably useful to someone somewhere on random pages like this, but that is no reason to put links to them at the top of such pages. —
SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 22:29, 29 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, I read it. The fact that you find some particular tool incidentally helpful for expanding/collapsing sections is no reason to put a link to that tool at the top of a random page just because it has a lot of sections. This is a help page – about tables, not about tools for sectional navigation and display alteration. The fact that you opened an RfC about this after meeting with unanimous resistance (i.e. there is already a clear consensus against your desire to "spam" this toCExpandAll.js script here) is a petty abuse of the
WP:RFC process. —
SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 23:41, 29 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Repeat: The fact that you find some particular tool incidentally helpful for expanding/collapsing sections is no reason to put a link to that tool at the top of a random page just because it has a lot of sections. This is a help page – about tables, not about tools for sectional navigation and display alteration. My substantive objection to your proposition stands. My non-substantive objection to what I thought was you opening a pointless RfC was also valid (just addressed to the wrong editor), and is neitehr an "insult" nor a "pathetic attempt" at any thing (nor does it have anything to do with whether I read and understood your arguments for spamming us with a toCExpandAll.js "advert", which I clearly did read and understand). I'm always amazed at the propensitiy of various people to claim butt-hurt victim status when they are not getting their way and then in particular make like someone was rude to them while the rudeness in the discussion is actually coming from them. From the "unclear on the concept" department. If you think the discussion is not as civil as you'd like, then using wording like "insult" and "pathetic" is absolutely, positively guaranteed to make it worse and to make it look like you are the problem. Cf.
WP:HOTHEADS for pertinent advice along these lines. —
SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 03:17, 30 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I am not butt-hurt. I am amused again at your lack of reading comprehension. I had noted: "I can move the tool link off the top of the help page. I will do that now." Yet you are still talking about the link being at the top of the help page. --
Timeshifter (
talk)
08:20, 30 December 2023 (UTC)reply
To be clear, I opened the RfC because I felt like we (i.e. Timeshifter and I) were talking past one another. There was a third (albeit minor) participant, which ruled out 3O.HouseBlastertalk23:48, 29 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Whoever: When a proposition lacks support, we do not need an RfC to confirm that it self-evidently lacks support, especially when it's about minor trivia. RfCs consume considerable amounts of community time and energy. —
SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 03:17, 30 December 2023 (UTC)reply
I am not one to start RfCs for the fun of it. Heck, I am the guy who BOLDly deprecated
WP:A5 without an RfC. Some context: I was involved in two separate discussions with Timeshifter (one being the matter at hand), and neither of them have come any closer to agreement. At the other discussion, Timeshifter
stated that 2 out of 3 is not a consensus. Get others involved. This discussion was likewise a two against one, so I requested further input. (Looking back, I should have tried leaving a note at
Wikipedia talk:Help Project first.)I have withdrawn the RfC, given that this is increasingly looking like a
WP:1AM scenario. I would rather not personally remove the link, but I support you (or anyone else) in doing so. HouseBlastertalk05:13, 30 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Request for comments concerning Template:Sort under
Comment at the above-linked talk page. Comments are requested there specifically concerning whether the default class=sort-under should be centered sorting icons or right-aligned sorting icons. Or even left-aligned ones. --
Timeshifter (
talk)
21:51, 28 January 2024 (UTC)reply
For those who are interested. Someone at the technical Village Pump suggested going to this MOS discussion page since it is a style discussion, and not a technical problem. See:
User:Isaidnoway - some table accessibility stuff there on the user page.
What else could go in this new Help page?
I don't have the health, time, or energy to do this. Though I could do some cleanup afterwards. Houseblaster, are you interested? You have done these type of
Help:Table spinoffs already. --
Timeshifter (
talk)
14:00, 5 February 2024 (UTC)reply
It would be nice if all of the above was on a help page. I find "tutorial" and "manual of style" to be off-putting. On the other hand, people have little fear in trying to edit help pages.
WP:BRD happens more often. Bold-revert-discuss.
"Data tables tutorial" is not a guideline or policy. Maybe change its name to
Help:Table/Accessibility.
The rest of the stuff listed in my first post shouldn't be a problem to copy or move there too.
Then we can all edit the new help page. We now have a new history for all the consolidated material. We don't have to worry about losing anything. --
Timeshifter (
talk)
23:54, 8 February 2024 (UTC)reply
"See also" sections, and their inclusion of somewhat related links
Tool. to fully expand/collapse the table of contents. Help:Table TOC has many subsections.
That was a 3 to 1 vote. That is for the link at the top of the article. The link was moved to the "See also" section. It has been there for awhile. Those sections allow somewhat related links. So that 3 to 1 vote does not apply. And Jroberson108 was one of those votes. He does not have a problem with somewhat related links being in the "See also" section.
@
Timeshifter: Please don't assume my opinion, just ask. I think the consensus clearly says that there is "no" relation, not even "somewhat". Since there is some question about my opinion, then I'll reclarify it in the RfC.
Jroberson108 (
talk)
03:26, 12 February 2024 (UTC)reply
HouseBlaster. You previously wrote: "To be clear, I use the tool. I agree it is useful. But I don't think it needs to have a link in the lead of a help page on tables." That is why I moved it to the "See also" section. As I said in another discussion. It is not about me. This is not a chess game between you and me. It is about what is best for the reader. --
Timeshifter (
talk)
04:46, 12 February 2024 (UTC)reply
I stand by that comment, because it certainly does not belong in the lead of a page on tables. But it also does not belong in the see also section on tables. I know this is not a game between us. What is best for readers is
keeping it simple, which means only including information about tables. Just because you and I use a tool does not mean it should be on this page.HouseBlaster (
talk · he/him)
05:01, 12 February 2024 (UTC)reply
"Just because you and I use a tool does not mean it should be on this page." Why not? There is no rule that it can't go in the "See also" section. What does
KISS principle have to do with one useful link being put in the "See also" section? It was there for weeks. How does it hurt anything? It obviously helps since both you and I use it. I am waiting for a guideline against it being there. Otherwise it is WP:IJDLI. See: WP:CIVIL says: "Editors are expected to be .. responsive to
good-faith questions." --
Timeshifter (
talk)
05:13, 12 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Timeshifter, I have said my piece. I am not required to
WP:SATISFY you: I believe that it violates the KISS principle by including something that does not have anything to do with tables. It "hurts" because it is distracting from the table-related resources. That is my opinion. Please respect it. HouseBlaster (
talk · he/him)
05:21, 12 February 2024 (UTC)reply
HouseBlaster. How is it "distracting" from the table-related resources? It actually helps find them in the TOC. And how is it distracting at all? It is at the bottom of the page in the "See also" section. You didn't even notice it being there for weeks. --
Timeshifter (
talk)
05:26, 12 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Jroberson108. It helps to fully expand/collapse the table of contents.
Help:Table TOC has many subsections. I use it all the time here. HouseBlaster uses it. Why not allow others to have that opportunity?
It may not be directly related to tables, but it certainly is a help. So since it is helpful with the long TOC here, then it should go in the "See also" section.
Please don't assume my opinion, my thoughts, or bad faith. Can the hierarchy of the sections not be simplified so you don't feel a need for the tool? That would benefit everyone.
Jroberson108 (
talk)
06:03, 12 February 2024 (UTC)reply
See: Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout#"See also" section. There is nothing in there against having this kind of link. It says (emphasis added): "Links in this section should be relevant and limited to a reasonable number. Whether a link belongs in the 'See also' section is ultimately a matter of editorial judgment and common sense. One purpose of 'See also' links is to enable readers to explore tangentially related topics;" --
Timeshifter (
talk)
05:55, 12 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment for others reading this. See Phabricator tasks:
Please comment there so that developers know there is a continuing desire for a TOC toggle that alternates between expand all and collapse all. --
Timeshifter (
talk)
03:27, 8 May 2024 (UTC)reply
We've already spun off 3 articles from
Help:Table. They are all below the recommended prose size limit of 6,000 words. I updated the numbers below. See:
I was speaking more in terms of organizing the sections on this page, not necessarily moving anything to another help page.
Consolidating can help with the size. In Basic table markup, the "Required" column can be removed and the bold word "Required" added to the "Usage note" column, which "Optional" is implied.
Examples can be consolidated to the essentials to illustrate how to do it. In Float table left or right, would two columns suffice and can the lorem ipsum text be reduced? Same for Centering tables, would two columns suffice? Should Nested tables be on this page given it's discouraged per the accessibility link, or should it be minimized since the link illustrates it already?
Pipe syntax tutorial, Simple tables, Classes, Other table syntax, and probably some other sections seem to duplicate a lot of what's already covered on
Help:Basic table markup, so can they be removed/reduced to an essential overview. Basically, go here to learn the basics because this page gives an overview of the essential markup and the rest goes more in-depth on further customization.
If the sections were organized based on the reader's goal, then it might make it easier to find what they are looking for.
I don't think we need to create any new pages, but I think the guidance at
WP:Article size is not applicable here. "Prose size" leaves out everything in a table, which for these pages is much of the content.HouseBlaster (
talk · he/him)
15:29, 14 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Table with page sections
FYI, I've come across a few pages where page sections were added to a table to divide it up into sections. I'm sure it's an accessibility issue that's worse than
MOS:COLHEAD. If someone wants to try to fix them, feel free.
I mentioned aaccessibility. It's very similar to
MOS:COLHEAD except with "header" instead of "th" elements where you are visually separating a data table. Although using "th" might cause more issues, it's still "visual".
MOS:COLHEAD recommends moving the header text to a column or spliting them into separate tables with the header text in the table caption. If it's not an accessibility issue for screen readers, then that's fine. Moving it to caption is an easy way to keep it accessibile.
Jroberson108 (
talk)
16:57, 15 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Styling background-color
I've come across several pages that have a sortable table's column header's background color changed using style="background: color;". This made the sort arrows not display. The help page should change the code examples to use style="background-color: color;" instead, which fixed the issue. Although the help page has one prose line that says use "background-color", every color example uses "background". Here's the latest two fixes:
[1] and
[2].
Jroberson108 (
talk)
21:36, 14 March 2024 (UTC)reply
When used inside a style= attribute, they are, in most cases, interchangeable. However, the background: property will reset any background-image:, background-position:, background-size:, background-repeat:, background-origin:, background-clip: or background-attachment properties to their initial values. I don't think that this will be a problem for us. --
Redrose64 🌹 (
talk)
15:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm aware that they can be interchangeable except when another background property is also set, but most people aren't CSS savvy. Setting a more specific "background-color" in the examples would help, especially when someone later adds sortable to a table that uses the less specific "background" (after following this page's examples) causing some sort arrows to be disabled. It's a recommendation for the less savvy.
Jroberson108 (
talk)
17:12, 15 March 2024 (UTC)reply
I did a mass-replace of style="background: with style="background-color:
All the other dates in the other columns will wrap when necessary. Scroll down the table to see. Narrow your browser window too, to see it more clearly.
Looks like that template uses non-breaking spaces ( ) instead of spaces, which prevents the wrapping. It lists some alternative templates at the bottom. It looks like {{start date text}} uses spaces, so it should wrap.
Jroberson108 (
talk)
05:27, 16 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Thanks. I switched to the abbreviated form of {{Date table sorting}}. It narrowed the column a little, but it does not sort. Which is weird because I thought that was the reason for its title. It does not wrap either. I put a soft hyphen {{shy}} in "Announced" text in header. That did not help. --
Timeshifter (
talk)
06:34, 16 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Looks like the "nowrap=off" parameter has to be added to disable the nowrap style. That template sets data-sort-value= for each data cell, so you will need to remove data-sort-type="date" from the header for it to sort. I noticed some of the other columns don't sort either. Maybe add this template for the date part of them too: "June 29, 2007; 16 years ago".
Jroberson108 (
talk)
07:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)reply
With all those links to main page's subpages one gets easily in the sea of links. To resolve that, I feel a help table header is long overdue, hence why I am opening this discussion.
Qwerty284651 (
talk)
06:07, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I don't understand what you are asking. Please clarify.
<divstyle="border:solid 1px; padding-left:4px; padding-right:4px;">For more help, see [[Help:Table]], [[Help:Introduction to tables with VisualEditor/1|Help:Tables and VisualEditor]], [[Help:Creating tables]], [[Help:Introduction to tables with Wiki Markup/1|Help:Wikitable]], [[Help:Basic table markup]], [[Help:Table/Advanced]], [[Wikipedia:Advanced table formatting|WP:Advanced table formatting]], [[Help:Tables and locations]], and [[Help:Sortable tables]]. For style info, see [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Tables]]. For accessibility, see [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Data tables tutorial]].</div>
It requires full internal links under any shortened labels. So that the link is black, bold, and unclickable when the template is on that page. If you use a shortcut in the template (such as
Help:Wikitable) as the underlying link, it will be clickable on that page.
I say go for it. And then replace all headers in the pages above with the template. Sort of a like a predecessor to the header. A transition.
Qwerty284651 (
talk)
11:32, 2 June 2024 (UTC)reply